pigeon quota

patton69

as title says do you lads think there should be a quota placed on the number of pigeons you can shoot in a day like say 50 per gun excluding derogation where the farmer needs them shot if theyre doing real damage or is it just a paradox seeing some of the bags of pigeon and rabbit lads are now taking its horrific to see as a sportsman\dogman . im just interested to see how others feel about this

Cass

In what sense would you want a bag limit? IOW would you want legislative change or just on a club level.

If it's legislative then good luck, and if it's club level you still face the same problem of enforcement.

Also why impose a bag limit at all? Is there some sharp decline in pigeon numbers that warrant it? Is it just a case of you not liking how many lads shoot?

If it's because of decline in numbers then you may have a point. If it's because you don't like the number being shot by some people you must consider that for some this is their only sport. They don't engage in dog running, pheasants, rabbits, foxing, etc. Also the numbers that they shoot would be "offset" by the fact that others (possibly the majority but that is a pure guess) don't shoot anywhere near that amount. Myself for example. I'd barely shoot 50 in a year, most years.


So like with all other shooting sports, whether you agree or disagree with it why would you seek to restrict, challenge or limit another man's sport?

patton69

Cass wrote: »

In what sense would you want a bag limit? IOW would you want legislative change or just on a club level.

If it's legislative then good luck, and if it's club level you still face the same problem of enforcement.

Also why impose a bag limit at all? Is there some sharp decline in pigeon numbers that warrant it? Is it just a case of you not liking how many lads shoot?

If it's because of decline in numbers then you may have a point. If it's because you don't like the number being shot by some people you must consider that for some this is their only sport. They don't engage in dog running, pheasants, rabbits, foxing, etc. Also the numbers that they shoot would be "offset" by the fact that others (possibly the majority but that is a pure guess) don't shoot anywhere near that amount. Myself for example. I'd barely shoot 50 in a year, most years.


So like with all other shooting sports, whether you agree or disagree with it why would you seek to restrict, challenge or limit another man's sport?

legislative and the obvious decline in numbers plus the game dealers buying them by the truck load well around its disgusting lads shooting hundreds then just leaving them there in the ditch to rot there is 0 incentive for anyone to cap the numbers they shoot and numbers are without doubt down , there is an opening there for further restrictions and in a few years if numbers return lift em

patton69

So like with all other shooting sports, whether you agree or disagree with it why would you seek to restrict, challenge or limit another man's sport?[/QUOTE]


by that logic we should allow snap nets back on every river in ireland sure never mind the decline in stocks its their sport , most of these lads are destroying their own sport which they do not own what about the generations to come do they not deserve it lets lamp deer with dogs and dig badgers why should we limit another mans sport

Cass

patton69 wrote: »

and the obvious decline in numbers ...........

patton69 wrote: »

most of these lads are destroying their own sport which they do not own what about the generations to come

According to whom?

Where are you getting your figures to show there is a dramatic decline in the number of pigeons?

As for netting, no one is discussing angling/fishing on either an individual or commercial level.

do they not deserve it

Again according to whom? You?

lets lamp deer with dogs and dig badgers why should we limit another mans sport

Both of those acts are illegal, hence not a sport and as such anyone doing it is breaking the law and should be reported. How do they relate to the legal shooting of pigeons?

aaakev

I dont think anyone would have a problem with limits if there was a genuine decline in numbers but until then i dont see an issue. there are very few lads shooting that much regularly anyway

Cass

Precisely my point aaakev.

My questions above are to establish where the OP is getting this idea, that a limit is needed, from. I have no issue with any restrictions that are needed on a conservation basis but i've never seen anyone shoot anywhere near the numbers being mentioned above.

Frankly the attempted comparison of no bag limit for pigeon being akin to allowing illegal acts such as lamping deer, etc. is ridiculous. As is the statements that they are non deserving of their sport, and destroying it for future generations. Seems overtly emotive and used when your underlying argument has no basis or cannot stand on it's own.

patton69

Cass wrote: »

According to whom?

Where are you getting your figures to show there is a dramatic decline in the number of pigeons?

As for netting, no one is discussing angling/fishing on either an individual or commercial level.

Again according to whom? You?

Both of those acts are illegal, hence not a sport and as such anyone doing it is breaking the law and should be reported. How do they relate to the legal shooting of pigeons?

those people see it as there sport you spoke of putting limits on other peoples sport a fairly stinking selfish attitude , look at fox hunting in england salmon are a prime example of species decline in ireland i used the as an example , you mentioned sport fishing is also a fieldsport my figures are purely from experience and being out there watching for pigeons ask around most people i speak to say the same , unfortunate for us there has been no real study done on wood pigeon numbers in ireland afaik i guess you get what i mean very well but are just picking my argument apart using different points to counter argue which your good at which is not really why i started the thread i just wanted to see or hear others feelings or views on this a 50 bird per gun bag limit is more than fair why shoot up to 700 pigeons in a day

patton69

am i the only 1 witnessing this the numbers are down seriously down they may be ok in some areas but they are down do you think a bag limit would benefit the sport of pigeon shooting yes or no

aaakev

Cass wrote: »

Frankly the attempted comparison of no bag limit for pigeon being akin to allowing illegal acts such as lamping deer, etc. is ridiculous. As is the statements that they are non deserving of their sport, and destroying it for future generations. Seems overtly emotive and used when your underlying argument has no basis or cannot stand on it's own.

That actually pissed me off reading it. Out of all the hunters i know (which is quite a lot ) none of us wiuld shoot the numbers mentioned or anything near it!

Most lads shoot responsible and realise that shooting everything in sight is only killing your own sport on your own land. Myself i didnt shoot a single rabbit on my main permission for about 2 years because the numbers dropped because of mixi. Numbers are up again so this year iv started shooting them again

aaakev

patton69 wrote: »

am i the only 1 witnessing this the numbers are down seriously down they may be ok in some areas but they are down do you think a bag limit would benefit the sport of pigeon shooting yes or no

I haven't noticed a decline in my area tbh. I think I've already answered your question, i wouldn't have a problem if there was genuinely a drop in numbers but if there wasn't i would have a problem with it

patton69

aaakev wrote: »

That actually pissed me off reading it. Out of all the hunters i know (which is quite a lot ) none of us wiuld shoot the numbers mentioned or anything near it!

Most lads shoot responsible and realise that shooting everything in sight is only killing your own sport on your own land. Myself i didnt shoot a single rabbit on my main permission for about 2 years because the numbers dropped because of mixi. Numbers are up again so this year iv started shooting them again

thats good to know but i was sent a picture today of a lad with a couple shy of 100 rabbits on the ground for a days shooting all heads shots 2 euro a rabbit same happening with pigeons not everyone is like you your not that innocent to believe that everyone is responsible because they tell you they are are you

Cass

patton69 wrote: »

those people see it as there sport

Which people?

patton69 wrote:

you spoke of putting limits on other peoples sport a fairly stinking selfish attitude ,

You started this thread to limit/restrict the numbers. That is what i'm speaking off.

patton69 wrote:

look at fox hunting in england

What about it?

patton69 wrote:

salmon are a prime example of species decline in ireland i used the as an example ,

I presume there are figures to back up the issue regarding Salmon? If so then there must be figures to support your claim about pigeons.

patton69 wrote:

you mentioned sport fishing is also a fieldsport

Who mentioned this? I certainly did not.

patton69 wrote:

my figures are purely from experience and being out there watching for pigeons ask around most people i speak to say the same

So you're proposing limitations and restricting, on a legislative level, to a sport you may or may not take part in simply based on "what you've seen".

That is a terrible idea. You have not got a nationwide picture, levels of shooting, breeding numbers, etc, etc. IOW you have nothing but your own opinion and while you are most entitled to that you cannot base such a large ans sweeping proposal to a category of sport based on a hunch.

patton69 wrote:

, unfortunate for us there has been no real study done on wood pigeon numbers in ireland afaik

Pigeon are classed as vermin. Deer are a national resource. There has not been a proper census on deer numbers either ever or for at least 40+ years so what chance is there of one on pigeon. Same applies to foxes. There are guesses ranging from 90,000 to 160,000 in terms of numbers.

None of it matters a damn simply because it's a guess.

patton69 wrote:

i guess you get what i mean very well but are just picking my argument apart using different points to counter argue which your good at which is not really why i started the thread i just wanted to see or hear others feelings or views

Am i somehow less entitled to reply? If i'm picking apart your argument do you not think that is more because it was poorly constructed to begin with rather than my ability to dissect it?
quote]on this a 50 bird per gun bag limit is more than fair why shoot up to 700 pigeons in a day[/QUOTE]
We've established you have no grounds to make the claim you are so we won't repeat those points.

However the 50 bag limit. Would you see this as a daily, weekly, forthnightly , etc limit? Again how would it be enforced?

Also the number of 700 per day. Where have you seen this? Was this a once off thing by one person, a once off thing by numerous people, or a daily/weekly/monthly thing by a group of shooters?

Was it done for sport, for culling reasons, for derogation, etc?

aaakev wrote:

That actually pissed me off reading it

Me too.

patton69 wrote:

same happening with pigeons not everyone is like you your not that innocent to believe that everyone is responsible because they tell you they are are you

You are basing your entire argument from the reports YOU are getting (not us or anyone else thus far) of the actions of one, perhaps a few, individuals. That does not make it a national issue, does not mean there is a dramatic decline, and most certainly does not mean that everyone else is at it.

Cass

patton69 wrote: »

am i the only 1 witnessing this the numbers are down seriously down they may be ok in some areas but they are down

This is wrong again.

You say you have noticed a drop, but have only your opinion to verify it. You say it may not be the case elsewhere. Well if it's not the case elsewhere then it's not a dramatic drop or national situation as you claim it may be.

I have not noticed any drop in my area. I say that in all honestly and not simply to be counter to your point. It's the reason i replied to this thread in the first place.

do you think a bag limit would benefit the sport of pigeon shooting yes or no

No. Without any proof of what you claim, and that it is prevalent across the country, my answer is no.

allan450

Money is the main problem same with the woodcock/deer.Irish people will do anything if they can [make a few pound] so to speck.Same with breeding dogs just for the sake of it.i had the same problem with men not young fellas.lads in their 60s took all the young grouse of a bog by me.why whats the logic i just dont understand it.100 rabbits is shocking.

J.R.

patton69 wrote: »

am i the only 1 witnessing this the numbers are down seriously down they may be ok in some areas but they are down do you think a bag limit would benefit the sport of pigeon shooting yes or no

I shoot & decoy a lot and can't say I've noticed any decline in numbers. When they are scarce when I'm out I just know I choose the wrong place - they are feeding somewhere else. When I hunt in the place they are feeding then numbers seem to be very healthy with lots coming in to the decoys.

I never shot hundreds like some you witnessed - even shooting 50 in a day is good shooting, in my opinion.

I can't see the reason to restrict at the moment as according to BirdWatch Ireland (below) numbers seem to be healthy with no decline, and I'd agree with that from my observations.

When the birds are classed as a pest causing crop damage I'd imagine that it would be very difficult to put a bag limit on it...how would you police it?...I'd imagine landowners would be up in arms if there was a frenzied attack (as I've witnessed) where birds just keep coming in and in....... then I'd guess a landowner would be very annoyed in the middle of such an attack to see you stop,pack up gear and get ready to leave after 50 birds shot, leaving the field while attack by a pest species continues.

If you shot 50 - then went home for grub and returned in the evening could you shoot another 50?

I'd imagine - like the curlew, if they are getting scarce then there will be no limit imposed - they will be offered full protection, in my opinion.

As far as I'm aware no bird species has a numbers limit attached to shooting them as it would be so difficult to police and enforce. Some clubs have bag limits on pheasants and woodcock but that's only a club rule, agreed by members with no legal binding.


http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/IrelandsBirds/PigeonsDoves/Woodpigeon/tabid/432/Default.aspx


Conservation Concern: Green-listed in Ireland. The European population is considered to be Secure.

Breeding: A widespread breeder, found throughout Ireland, only in the higher hills and mountains are they absent. Originally a woodland bird, it is also found in parks and gardens, even in town centres where they have become quite tame. A very adaptable bird, it has been recorded breeding in heather and stunted bushes in the windswept west of the country.

Wintering: The Irish population is boosted by wintering birds from Continental Europe. Flocks of several hundred to a thousand may gather in good feeding areas.

Where to See: Not difficult to see, look out for large flocks of migrants flying over head in the autumn.

Monitored by: Countryside Bird Survey & Garden Bird Survey.

cookimonster

I have not seen the numbers fall and have in fact have seen an increase in other birds short under derogation.
What I am seeing now, ie low numbers, is seasonal, birds are spread out feeding on natural resources. The crop protection I'm involved with at present is yielding very, very small bags, but as usual come the harvest pigeon numbers will concentrate. The farmers I shoot for are lucky that none of the crop has fallen other wise it would preserve a easy meal for the grey horde.
The shooting frenzy for pigeon, IMO, here is short lived and numbers dwindle over time not because of big bags but rather 'smarter birds' and the dispersal of large flocks.
So NO to answer your question, no bag limit and as far as legislative action we have it in the forms of both a pigeon shooting season and a annualy reviewed derogation to the EU regulations.

meathstevie

Wood pigeon would be about the only game bird which is practically ubiquitous in any area with a suitable habitat. They breed prodigiously and can live of a wide variety of food sources.

It would have to be very heavy sustained shooting over a prolonged amount of time before the year on year population would show any substantial decline.

patton69

meathstevie wrote: »

Wood pigeon would be about the only game bird which is practically ubiquitous in any area with a suitable habitat. They breed prodigiously and can live of a wide variety of food sources.

It would have to be very heavy sustained shooting over a prolonged amount of time before the year on year population would show any substantial decline.

maybe its down to over shooting then around my parts too many lads shooting the same areas but 6 or 7 years ago around here youd be expecting 50 birds at least would had countless 100 plus days but the last few years its been nearly impossible hit 50 winter shooting included and birds are not really moving here yet so cant comment on this year im not looking for an argument some interesting comments at last hope this thread stays going a while longer be interesting to here how numbers are stacking how about a bag count thread we could begin our own bit of research on here over a number years that might give something to go by

Birdnuts

BTO and BWI census figures suggests that Wood Pigeon numbers in the last 40 years have been steadily increasing. Seems to be a bird that benefits from intensive farming unlike most other game birds(or farmland birds for that matter)

http://app.bto.org/birdtrends/species.jsp?year=2011&s=woodp

BrownTrout

patton69 wrote:

as title says do you lads think there should be a quota placed on the number of pigeons you can shoot in a day like say 50 per gun excluding derogation where the farmer needs them shot if theyre doing real damage or is it just a paradox seeing some of the bags of pigeon and rabbit lads are now taking its horrific to see as a sportsman\dogman . im just interested to see how others feel about this

Well to be fair, most pigeon shooting is derogation.

So even if your bag limit was imposed, it would have very little if any impact on the numbers being shot.

As for rabbits, the holes they dig are a genuine danger for cattle so what's wrong with fellas shooting all the rabbits on a farm? The farmer gets his pest removed. It's not like rabbits are going to go extinct.

Vegeta

Bag limit has no scientific study to back it up. Pigeon numbers are stable/increasing. So that's a no from me.

useurowname

patton69 wrote: »

am i the only 1 witnessing this the numbers are down seriously down they may be ok in some areas but they are down do you think a bag limit would benefit the sport of pigeon shooting yes or no

No you're not, numbers of pigeon are certainly well down in my estimation(over 20 years decoying pigeons) and in the eyes of many older guys I shoot with, in fairness though many shooters are civilised in what they bag and those that aren't would probably ignore bag limits anyway. You make a fair argument for regulation, but as the other poster stated good luck trying to get anywhere regulating hunting sports in this country.

Capercaillie

Pigeon species:
Woodpigeon numbers good.
Stock dove is serious difficulty
Feral pigeon numbers widespread.
Problem is most people can't tell the difference between stock dove and the other two species.

nigelm485

im going to put my word on this too. I cover 170 acres of barley for a farmer. a couple of years ago I asked him for permission to do a bit of decoying and for the month of August with 3 5 hour sessons a week I was averaging 90 pigeon a week. last year in August same again 3 5 hour session a week I was shooting an average of 230 a week between myself and the misses.

two weeks ago the farmer rang me asking if I would do it this year again as he noticed a big incresase in his winter crops stock gain in persentage of production on his crops. he swares its dowm to the hammering we gave in August. he thinks the world of what difference it makes and couldnt thank me enough.

from what I see on lands I shoot on pigeon population is exploding.

and aswell all the pigeons I shoot there meat is minced for my own personal use we love the pigeon burgers here. all wings go to the nargc towards the vermin count.

thanks

dodderangler

Capercaillie wrote: »

Pigeon species:
Woodpigeon numbers good.
Stock dove is serious difficulty
Feral pigeon numbers widespread.
Problem is most people can't tell the difference between stock dove and the other two species.

True. You tell someone that pigeon meat is delicious they immediately think your sick. They always think of them junkie pigeons in town.

daithi55

couldnt agree more with the op

its not widely seen on boards whats been shot... spend and hour or two trolling around FB and you will see serious numbers of animals been shot... rabbit pigeon deer to name a few
never thought of lads selling duck phesant and woodcock but there is probably demand for them to

Capercaillie

daithi55 wrote: »

couldnt agree more with the op

its not widely seen on boards whats been shot... spend and hour or two trolling around FB and you will see serious numbers of animals been shot... rabbit pigeon deer to name a few
never thought of lads selling duck phesant and woodcock but there is probably demand for them to

Woodcock are slaughtered in this country. Plenty of people shooting 20-30 per day during the season. Not sustainable.

Tommyaya4

Impossible to police the only pigeon shooting we do is for crop protection only can't imagine telling the farmers I shoot for that I can only shoot 20 at a go I do wonder how the stubble jockeys are out blasting pigeons on cut crops and not a standing crop in sight we spent the last weeks shooting on rain flattened crops today the first Saturday after everything was cut and the weather was good you couldn't get into places to shoot the amount of lads from all over invading the place