The Batman (Matt Reeves) spoilers from post 1030

ThePott · 24-03-2022 7:01pm

Interesting, totally agree though the Joker has been done to death.

Part of the reason Ledger's Joker was so iconic was that we hadn't had a notable one since Nicholson, there's no shortage of portrayals now.

Glad this was deleted, served no real purpose outside of including the Joker. As for Keoghan's portrayal.

Seems okay, serviceable, not a lot to go on but also doesn't exactly feel like he's making it his own either. I think the destroyed by acid, disfigured sort of punk-ish looking Joker could work though. I just have no real interest in getting another Joker portrayal.

MOR316 · 24-03-2022 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830542#Comment_118830542

Unfortunately, you can't have a Batman universe without a Joker.

It's like Lennon without McCartney

If people are sick of him, may as well get rid of him from everything in The Batman universe then...Comics, Animated movies, the lot...

pixelburp · 24-03-2022 7:49pm

Not even one tattoo saying "damaged" ... 0/10

Watched the scene and it breezed over me; Keoghan was fine, nothing more. There's not enough to go by to be fair, personality wise, but the aesthetic was too much. Less is more with the Joker IMO and Ledgers single wound more evocative and chilling than this version's - the sheer amount of disfigurement only called attention to it being FX.

speedboatchase · 24-03-2022 7:51pm

Anyone else think Barry Keoghan is terrible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuUM73wnYl8

ThePott · 24-03-2022 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830656#Comment_118830656

You definitely don't need to introduce him in his second year as a crime fighter though and in his second film. Not to mention plenty of Batman stories have worked without Joker being pivotal.

There's plenty of Batman villains, why we keep going back to the same 4 or 5 is beyond me. I understand the corporate reason but creatively it's so overdone. To double down on your Beatles analogy, McCartney did well as part of Wings and as a solo artist and has endured beyond the Beatles. Batman can exist without Joker for a while. To go even further with the Beatles analogy, would they have the same staying power and legacy if they had reunited and (assuming they were all still living) continued to reunite, most would probably argue they wouldn't be as iconic.

Same with Batman and Joker, it's been done to death give it a rest. We know the Joker is in this universe now, if he's one of the major villains in the next one personally my interest drops. I don't agree with saying he should be gone from other mediums either, it's not the same thing. As in the comics it's often a long running version of the character across multiple titles across years, the animated movies normally adapt them or are based on one iteration of the character. The ratio of Joker in live action properties in recent years has skyrocketed and it's hard to get excited for another portrayal as a result.

MOR316 · 24-03-2022 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830745#Comment_118830745

McCartney done well with Wings... You must be having a laugh 🤣 It was a creative low point

MOR316 · 24-03-2022 8:07pm

Anyways, if you don't Joker then you shouldn't want Superman with Lex.

Joker, he may play a part in future movies in this universe but, he's not going to be a main villain.. Or least I don't think so. My money is on Hush, maybe Mr. Freeze.

The Penguin will be part of the ongoing universe anyways for sure

silliussoddius · 24-03-2022 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830756#Comment_118830756

The band the beatles could have been.

ThePott · 24-03-2022 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830756#Comment_118830756

I mean, number one I was talking about how he had a lifespan far removed from the Beatles as you used it as if to suggest Batman can't work without the Joker, which he absolutely can. I'm not gonna argue about Wings as a creative success but they were a success and proved that McCartney could succeed without the Beatles. Which was my point.

Seems weird to focus on my Beatles point instead of all the other ones, I wouldn't have gone with a Lennon/McCartney analogy to begin with as I don't think it fits.

arthursway · 24-03-2022 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830674#Comment_118830674

I agree with you.

The action hero movie scene is saturated to with an inch of its life in the last decade.

MOR316 · 24-03-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830925#Comment_118830925

I didn't take your other points because I, with respect, I'm not taking it seriously, as my last paragraph will explain

"I'm tired of The Joker. There is too much of The Joker. I don't want him in any films but I want him in everything else" That's what you're basically saying

"Batman can work without Joker"

OK so if Reeves decides to go down a route where Arkham prisoners break out, which is really being hinted at, like the AA game, you're telling me that would work without The Joker?

Batman and Joker are intertwined. There is not one without the other. Comic books, Frank Miller of all people, animated series, WB, Rocksteady, Chris Nolan all went to great lenghts to show and say this.

To sum it up, they don't really care if you or me are "fed up" of it because I can guarantee, you and everyone else moaning, that if The Joker is the next main villain (he won't be) you'll still buy a ticket and watch it.

pixelburp · 24-03-2022 9:36pm

I don't think anyone was naive to think we wouldn't get a new iteration of Joker, but above many other comic characters Batman can boast a fairly phenomenonal bench of villains, both superficial and characterful. We don't know anything about the inevitable sequel - I doubt even Matt Reeves knows for sure - let alone the extent to which Joker might be involved. And if this film's anything to go by Joker won't be the only villain either. But it's poor form to cast disappointment or frustration as moaning IMO; Batman works fine without the Clown Prince, sure doesn't this very film show this?

So I hope given that large roster of compelling villains, sequels give some screen-time to great characters sorely missing from cinematic representation; I suspect Batman and Robin has put a black mark on Mr Freeze, while I'll always have time for Clayface (especially the Animated Series' tragic take), though I suspect he and all the other overtly Sci-Fi villains like Killer Croc or Poison Ivy mightn't get a sniff in this iteration. Not unless they get another lo-fi downgrade ala Riddler. Black Mask might be a bolter given he fits easily into the mob structure. While I don't think any of the movies have gone near Dr Strange yet, himself IMO a solid antagonist.

ThePott · 24-03-2022 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831091#Comment_118831091

No what I'm "basically saying" is that I'd be far more excited if we got a film featuring a villain that we hadn't seen done ad nauseam. Will I go see it? Sure but am I going to be excited about another actor taking on the Joker on the big screen for what is now the third time in 6 years, no. How anyone could be excited by the way he was teased in the film and then revealing him in a deleted scene is just odd. You don't have to point out the obvious, they've said the same thing about horror reboots, the people bitching will be the first to buy tickets, doesn't mean it's a good creative choice. You should be more concerned about the casual audience who's going to tire of seeing Batman and the Joker rebooted again.

Saying the Batman and Joker are intertwined (or needing each other) as if it's some grandiose point is ridiculous. Like obviously they are intertwined but that doesn't mean one can't exist without the other. I don't know why you say Frank Miller "of all people" as if his takes haven't informed every Batman on screen since it was rebooted in 2005, of course the Joker would have an influence on that. In fact if anything you're highlighting how much we've been beaten over the head with this point. Why you wouldn't think an Arkham breakout would work without the Joker doesn't make any sense. As if villains breaking out of the asylum isn't literally a trope already or that The Riddler or anyone else couldn't orchestrate a break out despite Batman's rogues gallery being generally fairly intelligent and capable of escape already.

The ending directly hints at Zero Year which barely features the Joker too. The Joker is his biggest villain but acting like you can't tell a decent story without him is dumb when plenty of good Batman stories haven't needed him and he has one of the best rogues galleries in comics. Clearly he's not going to be the sole focus but when you have a villain bench as deep as Batman why bring the Joker back so soon? No one is dumb enough to think the Joker wouldn't be in this universe but do we really need him hinted at immediately?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831265#Comment_118831265

This 👆️, it's reductive of the character of Batman and his rogues gallery to suggest that he can't work without Joker. Why can't we get Hush? Or Court of Owls? Or any of other villains that haven't made it to screen or been done justice in the films?

Slydice · 24-03-2022 10:41pm

Yikes! I found that joker creepy! Definitely felt like part of the world they've built.

I'm half imagining they could get Keoghan to do the Red Hood backstory.

MOR316 · 24-03-2022 11:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831329#Comment_118831329

You're shifting the goalposts now completely...

You said you're tired of The Joker. I said Batman and The Joker are intertwined (Which you agreed with and then said it was stupid to say in the very next sentence 🤣 ) and that regardless of whatever universe you create, he is going to be involved and now you're going off on a rant, over a **** deleted scene, that has zero bearing on the sequel...

I never once said you can't tell a good Batman story or create a single movie without The Joker...I said you can't create a Batman universe, over an expanded period of time and not have him included or referenced in some way. Even without his presence, there is always a reference to him! Examples, The Nolan Trilogy...He is referenced in all three and two of them he's not even there!

I also never said Batman can't work without The Joker. I said they're intertwined and if you're telling a story over a period of time, which Reeves is doing, you can't have one without the other, which is true. And as for your Arkham Asylum breakout, ha right OK...The Riddler is going to lead a pack of criminals out of Arkham....Not the most infamous, manipulative and feared villain in The Batman rouges gallery, who has done it numerous times on screen, paper and in gaming...Also, what about if Harley Quinn wasn't The Joker's therapist but, Hugo Strange and he became the main villain in one of the movies, through his work with Arkham inmates like The Joker? There are plenty of uses for The Joker character in this world...He's also not even The Joker yet, as Reeves has said

I said: "YOU CAN'T HAVE A BATMAN UNIVERSE WITHOUT THE JOKER!" I never said you can't have a Batman film without him or anything like that. And you also said in your rant, "No one is dumb enough to think The Joker wouldn't be in this universe"

So you're agreeing with me...Apology accepted.

Finally, it's a deleted scene...If The Joker really was going to be the next main villain, it wouldn't have been thrown out like this. Freeze, Penguin, Hush, Scarecrow and Court of Owls have been touted around. No mention of Joker.

Killer Croc, Deadshot, Deathstroke are never going to be Batman's main villains in a movie. Nothing to do with marketing or anything. Clayface, I'd love to see but never gonna happen as the fans would lose their **** over the CGI. Ivy could work but, you'd need someone alongside her. Two Face would be great again but again, you need someone alongside him. Ventriloquist/Scarface would work alongside Penguin I imagine...

Jervis? Pyg? Nah...Black Mask is or has been practically done with Falcone. Unless he rises too and himself and Penguin are in rival gangs in this universe

MOR316 · 25-03-2022 1:41am

Watching it again, I can understand why cut this scene, from a story perspective, it shows Batman's internal struggle that Gordan alluded too earlier in the morgue and the similarities between Riddler and Batman. May as well take the viewer by the hand... It would have made the ending scene with Joker & Riddler a whole lot better though

I don't think they're trying to make the character stand out like Jack/Burton or Ledger/Nolan did, I think it's Reeve's Joker, in this universe and he's just there, if that makes sense? (Or least it does in my head)

He is 100% modelled after the Arkham City Joker

El Duda · 25-03-2022 4:39pm

The Batman – 9/10 (Cinema)

I loved this. The entire film was drenched in a sort of oppressive moodiness from the first frame till the last. It’s so beautifully photographed that it’s like watching a live-action graphic novel. You could take stills from it and easily convert it into one.

The Se7en style murder mystery plot is exactly what we’ve wanted to see in a Batman film for years. If you take the various aspects of The Riddlers clues/Batman and Gordon’s problem solving and break it down, it’s not exactly up to much. Some of the riddles are a bit silly in fairness, but I didn’t mind as I felt it was more of a mood piece than a Fincher style, forensic crime film.

I thought Pattinson nailed it and I liked how Reeves flipped it and put The Batman persona front and centre and had Bruce Wayne be the murky oddball who lurks in the shadows. We’ve barely scratched the surface of this version of Bruce Wayne and that adds to my intrigue for the sequel.

The only major gripes I have with it are people standing too close to explosions and an under-written Alfred. Other than that I thought it was superb and the 2 hr, 47minute runtime flew by for me. I can’t wait to see how Reeves follows this up.

ThePott · 25-03-2022 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118831949#Comment_118831949

I'm not even gonna bother. Cause this is just going to go in circles. So this is my last post on the matter.

I didn't shift any goalposts, you're totally misprepresenting what I said in my "rants". Think whatever you want, introducing the Joker this early is unnecessary, the Batman universe doesn't desperately need him, certainly not immediately. I'd rather see other villains get the focus he would get. Those are my thoughts, sure plenty of people feel the same. You don't, that's fine.

I don't know why you want an apology, on a discussion forum of all places, if you don't want a discussion then why post and if you're getting this worked up over a difference of opinion why bother at all.

Riddle101 · 25-03-2022 8:33pm

Just saw the movie today and thought it was really good. I got a Tim Burton vibe off it which I think is a nice little nod to the classic films. I also like that they showed Batman's detective prowess in the films more too, which I think is something that the previous films lacked. Also, the casting was good, and the costumes blew my mind. I mean Colin Farrel's Penguin is some of the best makeup effects I've ever seen in a movie. He really doesn't look like Colin Farrel. Paul Dano is always a delight to watch, and Robert's Batman was an interesting take on the Batman character. He really nailed the dark and brooding nature of the character.

The Bollocks · 25-03-2022 11:15pm

Emo Batman load of shite. Dragged the bollocks out of it too. Farrell was the best thing about it. 6/10

pixelburp · 26-03-2022 9:25am

Farrell's prosthetics really were something to behold and I'd be curious to rationalise what the difference here was compared with other, much more obvious cases of actors wearing rubber. Jared Leto's recent turn as Paulo Gucci drew mockery and comment. Maybe it's down to the performance behind the latex, I dunno but Farrell hardly played things nuanced either, his Cobblepott a big, brash gangster type.

growleaves · 27-03-2022 10:02am

Batman in the New Orleans Superdome. Yikes.

gmisk · 27-03-2022 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837522#Comment_118837522

Totally different performances honestly a world away from each other. Farrell was in a comic book film, Leto was playing a real person horrendously badly, zero relation to what he looked or sounded like in real life.

Gwynplaine · 27-03-2022 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118830190#Comment_118830190

Brutal, I turned it off after about 2 minutes.

Going to Batman again some night this week

MOR316 · 27-03-2022 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835523#Comment_118835523

Apology accepted. I'll be the bigger man and drop it 😎

Sirsok · 27-03-2022 10:14pm

With all of Batmans detective work in the film you would think he would investigate where those photos of the Mayor coming out of the lounge were taken from.

pixelburp · 28-03-2022 8:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118844488#Comment_118844488

This was the part of the storytelling that most frustrated; the film tried to play this big reveal that - shock, who'd have thought it - the Riddler was holed up in that apartment (block) ... from which those photos outside the lounge were obviously taken. I'm usually the type who kinda misses plot holes and inconsistencies til they're pointed out - or I twig it about a week later. I definitely get lost in the spectacle of things. But I do remember sitting in the cinema thinking "wait, THAT'S where he was all this time?? Did nobody think to check? Given this Riddler guy clearly likes winding games"

I know the film was trying to portray this Batman as a WIP and a bit of a hot mess ... but the script really didn't do enough to convince this guy even hinted at the Greatest Detective moniker: the "riddles" he solved were no better than those form Batman Forever; the great reveal in the last act pure fluke, because of the cop he was with; and even the cypher (IIRC) was in part solved because of Alfred. I think Matt Reeves was so focused on this tortured Bruce, and the deep thematic look of the thing (and no question, this remains a handsome feature), he forgot to give the script a once over to make Batman seem like someone worth soliciting.

The Dark Knight achieved this quite simply, during the middle act, when Batman figured out the source of a bullet through ... well, detective work. Searched the crime scene then used some "science" and money to figure out the source of the bullet.