Miracles and Great Wonders You've experienced being a christian.

some1whothinks

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting these as evidence for God (since I'd already concluded God exists before these events).

As an atheist you're welcome to consider a chance-in-a-squillion of rolling up onto a petrol forecourt on empty 7 times on the bounce as chance. Ditto an identical balloon to the one lost (I wasn't suggesting it was the same one) appearing under those circumstances by chance. You've little option, have you?

I mean, you'd be saying the same thing if I rolled up on a forecourt on empty 107 times instead of 7. If you're not impressed by a chance in a squillion then why a chance in a 100 squillion?

As one who has concluded otherwise that God exists (and who knows something of his m.o.), I'm in a different circumstance than you and can reasonably conclude chance an outlandish explanation.

It's not just the existence debate. It's also the question of the nature of God. I had a read through your posts in other threads, where you profess to worshipping a loving God. However, what you've said here in this thread stands in stark contrast to the rest of the world. The meme among atheists and non-believers goes like this (I can't post pictures yet)
1) Show a picture of a devout Christian, with text saying "God helped me find my car keys"
2) Show a picture of a starving African child, with text saying "God didn't help me find food".
So then this begs the question of why God apparently helps you and your family get to garages, find wills, balloons and gloves...which in any rational person's mind would be trivial things, but doesn't help starving children find food.
I honestly don't think you're unaware of this meme.

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

So then this begs the question of why God apparently helps you and your family get to garages, find wills, balloons and gloves...which in any rational person's mind would be trivial things, but doesn't help starving children find food.

He won't necessarily prevent me dying a painful death from cancer. Or my son dying the same way in his childhood. That wouldn't diminish his finding my gloves - at least not to my mind.

Relationship brings with it elements of fatherhood. It doesn't bring a sugar daddy to cure all ills. If there are Christians starving in the world then they too will enjoy the same experience of God that I do. Without life being sugar-coated for any of us.

Google African/American/slavery/Christianity, in the event you're not already familiar with the place of faith for those in the darkest of places.

-

You never responded to the points I raised in response to your 'mock. So, a chance in how many squillion would it take for you to conclude God exists?

some1whothinks

If there are Christians starving in the world then they too will enjoy the same experience of God that I do.

You've just said that your experience of God includes him getting you to petrol stations so you could get more petrol, that God helps you find gloves. Now you're saying that starving Christians will (not might or maybe, WILL) experience God in the same way you do, but this is contradicted by the evidence of there being starving people who starve to death. Where do you fit your experience into their lives? Saying that they will experience God the same way you do makes literally no sense. Do you mean to say God will only help them find trivial things, but the important things like food he won't bother with?

Relationship brings with it elements of fatherhood. It doesn't bring a sugar daddy to cure all ills.

It's telling, isn't it, that you consider basic necessities like food to be what you would expect a sugar daddy to give, but gloves, wills, balloons and petrol not to be. If you're trying to paint God as a parental figure, then in real life, I would call that parental figure a dead-beat if all he did was give me balloons and gloves, but let me starve to death.

He won't necessarily prevent me dying a painful death from cancer. Or my son dying the same way in his childhood. That wouldn't diminish his finding my gloves - at least not to my mind.

I have to question your standards then, what you stand in awe of. A balloon is found? Wow, that's awesome! Praise be to God! I have to tell everybody this story, tell them this is what I think the all powerful and all loving God does for his people, instead of curing cancer. No, curing cancer and finding food would be what we'd expect a sugar daddy to do - it's not sugar daddy business if he minds my balloons and gloves. THOSE are important.

You never responded to the points I raised in response to your 'mock. So, a chance in how many squillion would it take for you to conclude God exists?

Mainly because you yourself didn't provide the work. You just said something along the lines of asking someone else to do the mathematics and apparently that other person came up with a really absurdly high number. You didn't do the work yourself, you didn't investigate to see if maybe that person's work was off or incorrect in some way.

I ask you this. Do you honestly consider basic survival necessities like food to be what you'd expect a sugar daddy to dole out, so as to manipulate followers into staying loyal? Do you consider God getting you/your family to petrol stations to NOT be him acting like a sugar daddy, this isn't him manipulating you to stay loyal?

steamengine

It is a reasonable question as to why God allows so much suffering in the world while somewhere else miracles or other worldly events are taking place. Some may believe in neither of course - God or the para normal.

While God is believed to all powerful, all knowing and always present everywhere - I don't recall any claim about him/her/it being perfect. In any event suffering which usually involves pain is essential for survival on Earth, even if it's dished out in inequitable proportions and appears unjustified. My grandfather, donkeys years ago, fell asleep in front of the fire and his shoe caught fire, and burned his big toe. Had he not suffered his trousers would have then caught fire and he possibly would have died. It's what we call Life - pitched somewhere between Heaven and Hell for most, but definitely touches on the extremes for some people.

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

You've just said that your experience of God includes him getting you to petrol stations so you could get more petrol, that God helps you find gloves. Now you're saying that starving Christians will (not might or maybe, WILL) experience God in the same way you do, but this is contradicted by the evidence of there being starving people who starve to death. Where do you fit your experience into their lives? Saying that they will experience God the same way you do makes literally no sense. Do you mean to say God will only help them find trivial things, but the important things like food he won't bother with?

The prime way in which God has moved in my life is in my salvation. Starving Christians will have had him move in the same, most crucial way.

A by product of my salvation is a world view which helps me make sense of both the awful and the wonderous aspects of life. That provides comfort beyond compare. Comfort that rows in alongside and can, for those who chose to walk close to God, completely transcend the temporal agony - be starving in Africa or dying of cancer in St. Vincents hospital.

It's telling, isn't it, that you consider basic necessities like food to be what you would expect a sugar daddy to give, but gloves, wills, balloons and petrol not to be. If you're trying to paint God as a parental figure, then in real life, I would call that parental figure a dead-beat if all he did was give me balloons and gloves, but let me starve to death.

Or let die of painful cancer - you forgot to include. That he might cure cancer or alleviate starving or not do so isn't something I'd take him to task for. An easy, pain-free life isn't necessarily on offer. I understand why not and have thus, no problem with it.

I have to question your standards then, what you stand in awe of. A balloon is found?

It's hard to discuss with someone who won't read what's written. It wasn't a balloon being found that mattered, it was confirmation to that woman that God existed. Confirmation she needed.

Wow, that's awesome! Praise be to God! I have to tell everybody this story..

You wouldn't be impressed finding out God existed?

Mainly because you yourself didn't provide the work. You just said something along the lines of asking someone else to do the mathematics and apparently that other person came up with a really absurdly high number. You didn't do the work yourself, you didn't investigate to see if maybe that person's work was off or incorrect in some way.

Tell that to your brain surgeon. You'll go study brain surgery before concluding you should take what he says as accurate?

The person in question was well qualified to do the calculation - having demonstrated on the forum their grasp of mathematics. He was an astro-physicist or something.

I ask you this. Do you honestly consider basic survival necessities like food to be what you'd expect a sugar daddy to dole out

Solving all my ills would be the work of a sugar daddy.

some1whothinks

antiskeptic wrote:

The prime way in which God has moved in my life is in my salvation. Starving Christians will have had him move in the same, most crucial way.

I notice you say starving christians. What about starving non-christians? Beyond that, I do have to question, again, why you think God is capable of and is willing (and has, in your view) found wills, balloons, gloves and gotten you to a petrol station? Why does he get you to petrol stations, but doesn't get starving people to food? (or food to them?)
I know I know, you'll say something like "sugar daddy" or "I don't expect him to solve all ills", but if you do say that (again) you're contradicting yourself. He has apparently solved some ills, for you. He helped you find gloves, as you've said. So why help you, the person behind the username antiskeptic, find gloves, but he won't provide food for the thousands of starving people in Africa?
It'd be one thing if you hadn't posted in this thread with these stories of lost gloves and trips to petrol stations. It'd be one thing if you or some other christian said that God only intervenes at great need - I'd still question as to what could be considered a great need if great numbers of starving people apparently don't but at least you yourself wouldn't be in this position of saying "God doesn't cure all my ills, I don't expect him to cure my ills or anybody elses...but let me tell you a story of how he helped me find my gloves and why he's so great for doing so!"

Or let die of painful cancer - you forgot to include. That he might cure cancer or alleviate starving or not do so isn't something I'd take him to task for.

You're the one comparing him to a parental figure. Part of the job of a parental figure is guiding, raising and caring for young ones in their care. I have to repeat myself - if you pointed to a human parental figure and say "That's a great parent" and told me that he finds gloves for one of his children, but lets the other ten children starve, I'd have to question your sanity, since it seems that your metric for what constitutes a great parent is completely different to mine.

Another question I have to ask - when I brought up starving children, you immediately jumped to "curing all ills"? Why all ills? Why is it that he can/will cure your admittedly minor, trivial ills (lost gloves) but he can't/won't cure major ills? Why do you respect such a figure?

Is it your view that joy, happiness, pleasant living can only be understood and experienced if you put it in contrast with suffering, despair and sadness? If yes, does this mean that in order for one to enjoy a good meal on Monday, one has to starve on Tuesday? To enjoy the company and life of one child, a parent has to suffer the loss of a second? Is it like a mathematical equation, where things are balanced?

The person in question was well qualified to do the calculation - having demonstrated on the forum their grasp of mathematics. He was an astro-physicist or something.

Okay, I'll take your word for it, with a pinch of salt since I don't have the work. This person can calculate odds. How is it you went from "This is an extremely unlikely, improbable series of events" to "This can only be because of God!"?

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

I notice you say starving christians. What about starving non-christians?

They won't experience that comfort. They will place their trials where ever their world view has them place them.

Beyond that, I do have to question, again, why you think God is capable of and is willing (and has, in your view) found wills, balloons, gloves and gotten you to a petrol station? Why does he get you to petrol stations, but doesn't get starving people to food? (or food to them?)

I've answer that question already. He provides to all and allows all to suffer what this world has to offer - the difference, for the individual is in the knowing. And the joy/comfort that provides.

That he would answer the particular prayers of those who believe can, I suppose be considered as the response of a father to his children: preferentially acting over those who aren't his children. People aren't born children of God (although that is what he wants all to become), they are reborn children of God. From whence the expression, born again.

I know I know, you'll say something like "sugar daddy" or "I don't expect him to solve all ills", but if you do say that (again) you're contradicting yourself. He has apparently solved some ills, for you. He helped you find gloves, as you've said. So why help you, the person behind the username antiskeptic, find gloves, but he won't provide food for the thousands of starving people in Africa?

God doesn't micro manage the world, it seems to me. The will of man is allowed to express (thus enormous disparity in wealth due to the greed of man) as are the forces of a fallen nature (which brings drought to Africa and not to Ireland), as is Satan. I can't suppose to know why I've a materially better life to those in Africa but would suppose some combination of the above involved.

It'd be one thing if you hadn't posted in this thread with these stories of lost gloves and trips to petrol stations.

It's a Christian forum. I'm posting to Christians and supposing a Christian to be one who has been saved. Since that much would be common amongst us you're left with describing interventions particular to your own life. I could point to the miracle of his retrieving me from an addicted life, meeting what became a wonderful wife, becoming a father - the latter two being well against the odds. But it wouldn't ring miraculous. Would it?

It'd be one thing if you or some other christian said that God only intervenes at great need - I'd still question as to what could be considered a great need if great numbers of starving people apparently don't but at least you yourself wouldn't be in this position of saying "God doesn't cure all my ills, I don't expect him to cure my ills or anybody elses...but let me tell you a story of how he helped me find my gloves and why he's so great for doing so!"

You could object to the preservation of ancient art works and the restoration of old buildings - whilst people in Africa starve for want of a cup of water. But to do so would place you under the spotlight: what are you doing spending money on bandwidth for boards.ie, not to speak of time spent discussing such topics with me when you could contribute the money/time absorbed here improving the life of a family in Africa?

The reason is that life is about something else than trying to make sure all people everywhere have exactly the same level of nominal wealth, health, happiness. If it's good enough for you, me, the Gubberment, then its probably good enough for God.

You're the one comparing him to a parental figure. Part of the job of a parental figure is guiding, raising and caring for young ones in their care. I have to repeat myself - if you pointed to a human parental figure and say "That's a great parent" and told me that he finds gloves for one of his children, but lets the other ten children starve, I'd have to question your sanity, since it seems that your metric for what constitutes a great parent is completely different to mine.

Read my point above about who is the child.

It's worth reminding of the place of pain. Pain is natures (and God's) way of telling us that something is up with things. Injustice, starvation, illness, toothache. Nothing is going to get our fallen attention more than pain. It is pain, afterall, which proves to be the drumbeat route to God; whether you're speaking of biblical figures, addicts, the sick and close to death .. or any other category of pain that has driven people to God. People in comfort don't tend to look for God. Why would they?

Another question I have to ask - when I brought up starving children, you immediately jumped to "curing all ills"? Why all ills? Why is it that he can/will cure your admittedly minor, trivial ills (lost gloves) but he can't/won't cure major ills? Why do you respect such a figure?

See above. He can cure major ills. Ask anyone who is saved and they'll tell you he cured the most serious illness of all for them - even if they only realised how sick they were after they were cured. Their being lost sinners.

And he heals at times, I believe (if not per the televangelist)

And he doesn't heal and we suffer and die, Christians and all. I've no problem with him not curing any major ill I might have. I labour under ills but don't worry that he doesn't cure them. I'm part of a world of suffering, a world he chose to step into and suffer along with. So why not me?

Is it your view that joy, happiness, pleasant living can only be understood and experienced if you put it in contrast with suffering, despair and sadness? If yes, does this mean that in order for one to enjoy a good meal on Monday, one has to starve on Tuesday? To enjoy the company and life of one child, a parent has to suffer the loss of a second? Is it like a mathematical equation, where things are balanced?

Not quite so formulaic but for sure, I don't suppose the construct of this world other than as you say. I've a well off friend who has done well in business and is in semi-retirement in his late fifties. He can holiday were he pleases and can taste of the best but he seems to be missing that which is provided for, if not by suffering, then at least by the challenge and disappointment and pain and worry that used to come from his business.

I treasure my son more because of the tinge of worry & projected concern for his possible loss/harm than I think would be the case if I was assured of a happy ever after for him. I don't suppose an up without a down, a ying without a yang. Quite how that will work out in heaven I can't quite figure out (indeed, the Bible says we couldn't figure it out). Perhaps it need involve ever increasing contentment, forever: the current being usurped by what is to come next thus providing the contrast. Who knows though.

Okay, I'll take your word for it, with a pinch of salt since I don't have the work. This person can calculate odds. How is it you went from "This is an extremely unlikely, improbable series of events" to "This can only be because of God!"?

God was known already + a tremendously unlikely event (I'm an engineer and though not easily able to calculate the magnitude of the numbers I knew them to be huge) + a class/style that typifies my ongoing experience with God as well as his interactions with others. I mean, if you could take your unbelieving hat off for a second and see a balloon caught in a bush (in the context it occurred) then wouldn't that be classy? The major being the certain confirmation of his existence (for someone primed to receive it - although I understand the atheist would/has to park such an event elsewhere - but struggle hard they must (you can have a crack at an explanation if you like)), the minor, her daughters balloon back. If you can't then you need try harder to take off that atheist hat for a moment.

Black Menorca

I've been in some very bad situations. when at my lowest, I asked god to help me. An unworthy sinner asking for another chance, a last chance and I was heard.

Where I am today is a miracle and I have Almighty God to thank.