Miracles and Great Wonders You've experienced being a christian.

Irelandcool

This is basically any personal experience with miracles or personal encounter with either God, His angels, saints or even (if your catholic like me) the virgin mary. This could be from reading the bible, prayer, rosary, a blessing, confession or while on pilgrimage at a places like Knock, Medjugorje , Jerusalem Vatican City, Lourdes or Fatima, any places like that.
The miracle could be you or someone else find their faith, getting cured miraculous, ending up finding the right treatment after a pilgrimage/pray, to somethings as dramatica as stuff like in Medjugorje like dancing sun, spinning cross, weeping statues/paintings, someone/you receiving their vocation/calling to the priesthood(romancatholic)/Pastor(protestant/baptist etc) or to the Nuns.

katydid

Irelandcool wrote: »

This is basically any personal experience with miracles or personal encounter with either God, His angels, saints or even (if your catholic like me) the virgin mary. This could be from reading the bible, prayer, rosary, a blessing, confession or while on pilgrimage at a places like Knock, Medjugorje , Jerusalem Vatican City, Lourdes or Fatima, any places like that.
The miracle could be you or someone else find their faith, getting cured miraculous, ending up finding the right treatment after a pilgrimage/pray, to somethings as dramatica as stuff like in Medjugorje like dancing sun, spinning cross, weeping statues/paintings, someone/you receiving their vocation/calling to the priesthood(romancatholic)/Pastor(protestant/baptist etc) or to the Nuns.

To be honest, I've never experienced anything of the kind and I have no interest in. I experience the wonder of God every day, and that's enough for me. I don't need pyrotechnics. Having said that, I still remember the sermon our priest gave which inspired me to email her and say I wanted to be a lay minister. Five years on, and I'm, hopefully, giving people food for thought by taking services and giving sermons which are my thoughts on the scripture readings of the day. I suppose it was a defining moment for me, but no pyrotechnics. Just a "yes" moment.

homer911

Becoming a Christian is a personal encounter with God. It might be a sudden revelation or something discerned gradually but it's still a personal encounter..

am946745

Personally entering the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City.

J C

Being Saved.

JohnBee

What exactly is a personal encounter with god?

antiskeptic

homer911 wrote: »

Becoming a Christian is a personal encounter with God. It might be a sudden revelation or something discerned gradually but it's still a personal encounter..

And probably perceived by the recipient as the most miraculous thing. Perhaps discerned by others in the changes wrought in a person, perhaps not. But for the person themselves, astounding.

homer911

JohnBee wrote: »

What exactly is a personal encounter with god?

To me, a personal encounter with God is a time or moment when we feel his presence in a a very real, almost tangible way. This could occur at time in the life of a Christian but is often associated with a person becoming a Christian/being saved/being born again

hinault

When I receive the Eucharist at Mass.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

When I receive the Eucharist at Mass.

I agree with that (Well, not the mass bit, I'm not welcome to receive it there)

I choke up every time I receive the Eucharist, because I feel overwhelmed.

homer911

JohnBee wrote: »

What exactly is a personal encounter with god?

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/nicky.gumbel.the.catholic.church.is.leading.the.way.in.evangelisation/58774.htm

antiskeptic

Outside of the miracle of salvation - something which I've found hasn't ever left me despite my prodigalness - I've not had that many encounters with what could be described as miraculous. There has been occasional sense of a personal word or instruction - along with what you might call direct interventions. Then there's stories from those I'd trust implicitly, like my mother

I used to commute across Dublin on a motorbike. It had a petrol gauge and a low warning light for petrol. Given the low tank capacity, you'd tend to run from full to as empty as you could - otherwise you'd spend your life in petrol stations. Due to gauge imprecision, I used to rely on the low warning light: when that lit up, I knew I had x number of miles in the tank.

Then the warning light blew and I had only the gauge to rely on. Too busy/lazy to change the bulb I inevitably got it wrong and ran out of petrol.

In fact, over a period of perhaps two years (I know, I know) I ran out of petrol 7 times.

This particular motorcycle ran out of petrol as follows. You'd be riding along when you'd hear the engine begin to stutter. At that point you had to wobble the motorcycle from side to side to encourage the last dregs of petrol to flow down to the carburettors. As the last dregs got used up the engine would gasp more and more until it finally died. When it died, you'd pull in the clutch and coast to a halt. From first stutter to final dying you might extract, I don't know, maybe a half a mile from it?

On each of those 7 occasions I coasted to a halt onto a petrol forecourt.

I once plotted out a map of my commuting route and placed all the stations both on it and within a half mile off it and had an atheist maths guru calculate out the chances of doing as I had done, landing in a forecourt each time. I can't remember the exact figure he placed on it but it was something like a 1 chance in the number of atoms in the universe or something.



Here, as on every other occasion, my being impressed was less to do with the miracle aspect and more with the sheer style involved. This, a fathers attention to my being merely inconvenienced. Along with a sense of humor.

hinault

katydid wrote: »

I agree with that (Well, not the mass bit, I'm not welcome to receive it there)

I choke up every time I receive the Eucharist, because I feel overwhelmed.

For every Catholic, receiving the Eucharist is to be in the real presence of Jesus Christ.

The OP asks a very good question. I can't say that I've ever had any other direct contact with God.
Thinking about it the fact that I have been given life and health, is one a tangible property that God exists, in my opinion.

homer911

It would be interesting to hear from a poster who was "baptised in the Spirit"

katydid

hinault wrote: »

For every Catholic, receiving the Eucharist is to be in the real presence of Jesus Christ.

The OP asks a very good question. I can't say that I've ever had any other direct contact with God.
Thinking about it the fact that I have been given life and health, is one a tangible property that God exists, in my opinion.

Indeed, any Catholic, Roman or otherwise. But not everyone feels it emotionally.

The OP's question wasn't about direct contact with God...

Thisname

Being born again!

antiskeptic

Another one from the archives. Again it is the sheer style and subtle touch which touched me rather than the miracle itself. This time the story from my mother, who was saved some years before me.

The experience of salvation, for many who've testified to it, involves a nether-region where they find themselves questioning God's existence: does he, doesn't he, how do I know? It's a period akin to spiritual receptors, long dead, beginning to awaken. The signals are confusing, fuzzy: "there is something in this God-thing but how do I believe?"

My mother had rowed in alongside a woman in her town, witnessing and supporting her in this time. The woman was confused and troubled and indeed desperate but as is to be expected, needed to experience things for herself - no amount of support, encouragement and personal testimony was going to enable her across the line into a personally held belief.

Anyway.

During this period, the woman is heading across Tescos carpark with her messages and her young daughter in tow. The daughter is clutching in her hand one of those helium-filled balloons: red with pictures of bears on it. In the kerfuffle of getting messages/daughter into the car, the balloon is let go of and up, up and away into the sky it goes. Tears..

A morning or two later the woman goes out into the back garden to put rubbish in the bin and there, caught by it's string in a bush outside the door is a balloon. A helium-filled ballon. Red with pictures of bears on it.

It was her sign. She had crossed the threshold.

antiskeptic

Folk testify too to a period after they are saved when it seems like God rows in particularly close in order to copper-fasten the early-day belief, to make concrete the knowledge that he does indeed exist and that he does indeed care. On a par with those early years after a child's birth when the parents attend to every single need, no matter how slight. The period before some growing up has to take place. The period of milk.

I'd left work on the northside of city on my motorbike and was heading down to to Wicklow to visit my mam and my sister who'd arrived back on a visit from England. It was a hot summers day and I decided to forego wearing my gloves - letting the warm breeze flow up the sleeves of my bike jacket. I'd a elasticated cargo net spanning the pillion seat - a place to stuff messages and the like. I stuffed the gloves under it and set off.

On arrival home that still-warm night I went to retrieve the gloves and .. gone. "Ah feck!" Not only were they expensive gloves but they fit me like the proverbial.. and I loved them.

"I'll head back to Mams" I thought, "they'll have fallen off along the way". Without thinking about it a second longer I set off back the 20 or so miles to my mams.

It was dark by now. I'm riding along whilst trying to keep an eye on the other side of the road, especially the gutters in case the gloves have been knocked in by a passing car. For the first mile or so I've street lights to help - although cars coming the other way mask portions of the road. Then I'm onto unlit country road and have trouble scanning effectively not being able to go slow enough for a finger-tip search, what with cars behind me.

Doubt soon begins to set in: "You're looking for a pair of black leather gloves on a black tarmac road, in the dark, with the headlight of a motorbike aimed at your side of the road as your only light! Being stubborn though..

I'd gone through Greystones and was heading towards Kilcoole when the doubt became terminal: "the last time you saw your gloves was when you left work you dope - you most likely lost them early on when you were whizzing down the motorway to mams!"

My hand unconsciously eased off on the throttle the more I calculated my chances of success and I scanned ahead for somewhere to wheel the bike around and head home.

Just as I prepared for the turn a voice in my head said:

"Don't stop, go on"

It hadn't the sense of my own tenacity, rather (in retrospect) it was a gentle command. So, I rolled on - not quite knowing what I was doing. I burbled into Kicoole and on out the other side. As I came to the last bit of streetlit road before leaving the town I spotted my gloves on the road ahead, my headlight picking up a bit of reflective piping stitched into the gloves. Right there, in the middle of the road within a couple of feet of each other. I couldn't miss them.

antiskeptic

My dad died in 2007 and in the weeks leading up to that, the family took up residence in his house to be near the hospital. When he died we stayed on there organizing the funeral and attending to immediate affairs. My older sister, being the responsible one settled into dealing with financial affairs: bills, retrieving stock from his business, the will and the like.

Except she couldn't find the will. For my dad was a bit of a paper hoarder: he had files upon files: cheque stubs going back, old electricity bills. Filed neatly but hardly systematically. And he was an artist to boot so there were rolls of paper stacked up everywhere: pictures we'd drawn as kids, old and new sketches, photos. It was a veritable treasure trove of memories - especially for me, who tends to chuck things as soon as their immediate importance has diminished.

She wasn't doing a systematic search for the will but in dealing with all the paper she was aware of it remaining undiscovered and it was proving an underlying upset to her - the sense of not being able to get the process moving without it.

One evening she was sitting at his desk organizing stuff and she got the sense to turn around. Behind her was a bookcase stuffed with books and stacks of rolled up sketches, artists papers and the like. Her hand moved up and took hold of one non-descript roll of sketches from the jungle of rolls. She unrolled it and there in amongst the sheets was my fathers will.

My sister is and remains an unbeliever but she and my other unbelieving sister would testify to the "atmosphere" that settled over that period of my fathers death: where things just seemed to fall into place and and sense of peace settled like a blanket over the underlying sense of bereavement. So much so that when that peace lifted after a few weeks the two of them actually voiced complaint at it's passing.

Kiwi in IE

antiskeptic wrote: »

Outside of the miracle of salvation - something which I've found hasn't ever left me despite my prodigalness - I've not had that many encounters with what could be described as miraculous. There has been occasional sense of a personal word or instruction - along with what you might call direct interventions. Then there's stories from those I'd trust implicitly, like my mother

I used to commute across Dublin on a motorbike. It had a petrol gauge and a low warning light for petrol. Given the low tank capacity, you'd tend to run from full to as empty as you could - otherwise you'd spend your life in petrol stations. Due to gauge imprecision, I used to rely on the low warning light: when that lit up, I knew I had x number of miles in the tank.

Then the warning light blew and I had only the gauge to rely on. Too busy/lazy to change the bulb I inevitably got it wrong and ran out of petrol.

In fact, over a period of perhaps two years (I know, I know) I ran out of petrol 7 times.

This particular motorcycle ran out of petrol as follows. You'd be riding along when you'd hear the engine begin to stutter. At that point you had to wobble the motorcycle from side to side to encourage the last dregs of petrol to flow down to the carburettors. As the last dregs got used up the engine would gasp more and more until it finally died. When it died, you'd pull in the clutch and coast to a halt. From first stutter to final dying you might extract, I don't know, maybe a half a mile from it?

On each of those 7 occasions I coasted to a halt onto a petrol forecourt.

I once plotted out a map of my commuting route and placed all the stations both on it and within a half mile off it and had an atheist maths guru calculate out the chances of doing as I had done, landing in a forecourt each time. I can't remember the exact figure he placed on it but it was something like a 1 chance in the number of atoms in the universe or something.



Here, as on every other occasion, my being impressed was less to do with the miracle aspect and more with the sheer style involved. This, a fathers attention to my being merely inconvenienced. Along with a sense of humor.

Hahahahaha! I had exactly the same petrol gage issue with my old car. But as I am an atheist, everytime I ran out of petrol (about 4 times in one year) I found myself miles away from a petrol station and having to embarrassingly ring family or friends for assistance.

lazygal

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Hahahahaha! I had exactly the same petrol gage issue with my old car. But as I am an atheist, everytime I ran out of petrol (about 4 times in one year) I found myself miles away from a petrol station and having to embarrassingly ring family or friends for assistance.

Maybe God sorted out the phone and relatives being available for you. He's really busy with all that stuff so he's no time left to stop abortion and gay marriage from happening I think.

Delirium

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe God sorted out the phone and relatives being available for you. He's really busy with all that stuff so he's no time left to stop abortion and gay marriage from happening I think.

MOD NOTE

Please remember you're posting in the Christianity forum. So please refrain from the mocking posts.

Thanks for your attention.

katydid

SW wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Please remember you're posting in the Christianity forum. So please refrain from the mocking posts.

Thanks for your attention.

Surely Christians can handle a bit of mocking? Why do we always have to be so sensitive? (I say that as a Christian)

some1whothinks

katydid wrote: »

Surely Christians can handle a bit of mocking? Why do we always have to be so sensitive? (I say that as a Christian)

Ditto. To respond to Antiskeptic...really? Just really? You are aware that "God helped me find my car keys will/balloons/gloves" is a meme among atheists and non-believers, a mocking point as an example of the low level of evidence people such as yourself use to judge whether or not there is a god and whether or not that god interacts with this world?

katydid

some1whothinks wrote: »

Ditto. To respond to Antiskeptic...really? Just really? You are aware that "God helped me find my car keys will/balloons/gloves" is a meme among atheists and non-believers, a mocking point as an example of the low level of evidence people such as yourself use to judge whether or not there is a god and whether or not that god interacts with this world?

Less of the "people such as yourself", please. I don't say prayers to St. Anthony when I lose my glasses, or think that if I find them, it was a sign from God. I think God has better things to be doing than finding my glasses.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that God influences our lives; I just believe it's on a far larger, more metaphysical scale. I find connection with God when I go to church and connect with other people in shared worship, and I find an especial connection when I take the Eucharist, because of my belief that this is the ultimate communion with the divine. When I pray to God to help me through an illness or a difficulty, I'm not asking him to send me some money or some miracle cure; I'm asking, trying to focus my mind on invoking the much underestimated aspect of God, the Holy Spirit, to give me the strength to do whatever it is I have to do.

Going back to my point about mockery - I have no problem with it, but I would prefer respectful scepticism to mockery. I can understand how people have a problem with religious belief, but it would be good if that scepticism involved open enquiry of believers, and a readiness, if not to agree, at least to respect them. And to realise it's far more complicated than a simplistic dismissal of all belief. Phrases like "people such as you" aren't really helpful to an open and respectful exchange of views...

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

Ditto. To respond to Antiskeptic...really? Just really? You are aware that "God helped me find my car keys will/balloons/gloves" is a meme among atheists and non-believers, a mocking point as an example of the low level of evidence people such as yourself use to judge whether or not there is a god and whether or not that god interacts with this world?

I wasn't suggesting these as evidence for God (since I'd already concluded God exists before these events).

As an atheist you're welcome to consider a chance-in-a-squillion of rolling up onto a petrol forecourt on empty 7 times on the bounce as chance. Ditto an identical balloon to the one lost (I wasn't suggesting it was the same one) appearing under those circumstances by chance. You've little option, have you?

I mean, you'd be saying the same thing if I rolled up on a forecourt on empty 107 times instead of 7. If you're not impressed by a chance in a squillion then why a chance in a 100 squillion?

As one who has concluded otherwise that God exists (and who knows something of his m.o.), I'm in a different circumstance than you and can reasonably conclude chance an outlandish explanation.

antiskeptic

katydid wrote: »

Surely Christians can handle a bit of mocking? Why do we always have to be so sensitive? (I say that as a Christian)

Mocking has to involve a degree of rigor of thought. It has to identify a weak point in the opponents position and niggle at it.

Something some1whothinks hasn't thought of.

dieseldog

I've been on mission trips to parts of Africa and the Phillipines with groups of 20-25 people all under the age of 35. We've repaired churches, schools and built homes and libaries. We've built ramps for disabled people and fed hundreds. As a group of 'born again' Christians, we also took part in church services, had youth meetings and praise nights. At one of the church services near the end, we requested for anyone with any health issues to come to the front and we would pray for them. One Flipino lady came up for prayer for her hand which didn't work properly and my friend prayed for her. She didn't speak english but and after the prayer she started crying and the translator said her hand was healed! It was amazing.

Also, I hurt my back as a 17 year old. I visited many chiropractor's and physio's who provided about 2 days of pain relief. After 7/8 years, I was booked in for an MRI scan to have it looked at as the pain was increasingly becoming unbareable. I received prayer from a visiting Pastor who strongly believed in healing and then also from my own Pastor. After a week or so, the pain subsided and I haven't had to see a chiro or physio in 3/4 years. I also cancelled the MRI!

A man in my church (pentecostal) also has Parkinson's. He started to go blind and couldn't drive. My Pastor called to him and prayed with him and he stood up the front of the church the following weekend to tell everyone that his sight had returned thanks to God! And he's driving again.

God's great!

katydid

antiskeptic wrote: »

Mocking has to involve a degree of rigor of thought. It has to identify a weak point in the opponents position and niggle at it.

Something some1whothinks hasn't thought of.

I agree. I just find that on the mods in this forum are too fast to jump in if there's a hint of "mocking" or whatever; in an adult debate, people should be allowed to police themselves and take the rough with the smooth, unless really objectionable stuff occurs.

Thisname

I've experienced so many answers to prayer since I became a christian. Unbelievers might put ordinary things down to coincidence (like say when Jesus finds me a great parking space in town!)

But there have been times when it can be nothing else but a Godincidence..for example I was a christian about a year when I started going to an alternative therapy (I won't say what one!) to treat a muscle injury. I had heard it said that such therapys which are rooted in eastern religion/spirituality can be dangerous spiritually and something christians should steer clear of. Anyway I put those thoughts to one side and went ahead with the therapy telling myself that view was probly a lot of nonsense and sur what harm could it do if it was making me feel better.

However as time went on I couldn't quite shake the feeling that this was against God's will. I felt like there was a wedge between me and God and when I was reading the bible I would feel the Spirits conviction. So I just prayed a simple prayer asking God if this feeling I was having was indeed Him telling me I was going down the wrong path (or just my own paranoia!) I told Him that if this therapy is wrong to let me know clearly in a way that I would know for sure was from Him and I would stop straight away.

That was on a Saturday. The next morning I went to church and a woman came up to me after the service and asked if she could talk to me. I knew her from bible study/prayer meetings but she had no clue what was going on with me, I hadn't told anyone! She said she had a dream about me and that the Holy Spirit was telling her to share it with me. In the dream I was involved in some kind of spirituality/yoga type thing she wasn't sure exactly what it was but felt she needed to warn me. When I went home I immediately repented and gave thanks to God. That experience really strengthened my faith and taught me to recognise and trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

mikom

I once dropped a slice of toast and it landed butter side up....

some1whothinks

antiskeptic wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting these as evidence for God (since I'd already concluded God exists before these events).

As an atheist you're welcome to consider a chance-in-a-squillion of rolling up onto a petrol forecourt on empty 7 times on the bounce as chance. Ditto an identical balloon to the one lost (I wasn't suggesting it was the same one) appearing under those circumstances by chance. You've little option, have you?

I mean, you'd be saying the same thing if I rolled up on a forecourt on empty 107 times instead of 7. If you're not impressed by a chance in a squillion then why a chance in a 100 squillion?

As one who has concluded otherwise that God exists (and who knows something of his m.o.), I'm in a different circumstance than you and can reasonably conclude chance an outlandish explanation.

It's not just the existence debate. It's also the question of the nature of God. I had a read through your posts in other threads, where you profess to worshipping a loving God. However, what you've said here in this thread stands in stark contrast to the rest of the world. The meme among atheists and non-believers goes like this (I can't post pictures yet)
1) Show a picture of a devout Christian, with text saying "God helped me find my car keys"
2) Show a picture of a starving African child, with text saying "God didn't help me find food".
So then this begs the question of why God apparently helps you and your family get to garages, find wills, balloons and gloves...which in any rational person's mind would be trivial things, but doesn't help starving children find food.
I honestly don't think you're unaware of this meme.

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

So then this begs the question of why God apparently helps you and your family get to garages, find wills, balloons and gloves...which in any rational person's mind would be trivial things, but doesn't help starving children find food.

He won't necessarily prevent me dying a painful death from cancer. Or my son dying the same way in his childhood. That wouldn't diminish his finding my gloves - at least not to my mind.

Relationship brings with it elements of fatherhood. It doesn't bring a sugar daddy to cure all ills. If there are Christians starving in the world then they too will enjoy the same experience of God that I do. Without life being sugar-coated for any of us.

Google African/American/slavery/Christianity, in the event you're not already familiar with the place of faith for those in the darkest of places.

-

You never responded to the points I raised in response to your 'mock. So, a chance in how many squillion would it take for you to conclude God exists?

some1whothinks

If there are Christians starving in the world then they too will enjoy the same experience of God that I do.

You've just said that your experience of God includes him getting you to petrol stations so you could get more petrol, that God helps you find gloves. Now you're saying that starving Christians will (not might or maybe, WILL) experience God in the same way you do, but this is contradicted by the evidence of there being starving people who starve to death. Where do you fit your experience into their lives? Saying that they will experience God the same way you do makes literally no sense. Do you mean to say God will only help them find trivial things, but the important things like food he won't bother with?

Relationship brings with it elements of fatherhood. It doesn't bring a sugar daddy to cure all ills.

It's telling, isn't it, that you consider basic necessities like food to be what you would expect a sugar daddy to give, but gloves, wills, balloons and petrol not to be. If you're trying to paint God as a parental figure, then in real life, I would call that parental figure a dead-beat if all he did was give me balloons and gloves, but let me starve to death.

He won't necessarily prevent me dying a painful death from cancer. Or my son dying the same way in his childhood. That wouldn't diminish his finding my gloves - at least not to my mind.

I have to question your standards then, what you stand in awe of. A balloon is found? Wow, that's awesome! Praise be to God! I have to tell everybody this story, tell them this is what I think the all powerful and all loving God does for his people, instead of curing cancer. No, curing cancer and finding food would be what we'd expect a sugar daddy to do - it's not sugar daddy business if he minds my balloons and gloves. THOSE are important.

You never responded to the points I raised in response to your 'mock. So, a chance in how many squillion would it take for you to conclude God exists?

Mainly because you yourself didn't provide the work. You just said something along the lines of asking someone else to do the mathematics and apparently that other person came up with a really absurdly high number. You didn't do the work yourself, you didn't investigate to see if maybe that person's work was off or incorrect in some way.

I ask you this. Do you honestly consider basic survival necessities like food to be what you'd expect a sugar daddy to dole out, so as to manipulate followers into staying loyal? Do you consider God getting you/your family to petrol stations to NOT be him acting like a sugar daddy, this isn't him manipulating you to stay loyal?

steamengine

It is a reasonable question as to why God allows so much suffering in the world while somewhere else miracles or other worldly events are taking place. Some may believe in neither of course - God or the para normal.

While God is believed to all powerful, all knowing and always present everywhere - I don't recall any claim about him/her/it being perfect. In any event suffering which usually involves pain is essential for survival on Earth, even if it's dished out in inequitable proportions and appears unjustified. My grandfather, donkeys years ago, fell asleep in front of the fire and his shoe caught fire, and burned his big toe. Had he not suffered his trousers would have then caught fire and he possibly would have died. It's what we call Life - pitched somewhere between Heaven and Hell for most, but definitely touches on the extremes for some people.

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

You've just said that your experience of God includes him getting you to petrol stations so you could get more petrol, that God helps you find gloves. Now you're saying that starving Christians will (not might or maybe, WILL) experience God in the same way you do, but this is contradicted by the evidence of there being starving people who starve to death. Where do you fit your experience into their lives? Saying that they will experience God the same way you do makes literally no sense. Do you mean to say God will only help them find trivial things, but the important things like food he won't bother with?

The prime way in which God has moved in my life is in my salvation. Starving Christians will have had him move in the same, most crucial way.

A by product of my salvation is a world view which helps me make sense of both the awful and the wonderous aspects of life. That provides comfort beyond compare. Comfort that rows in alongside and can, for those who chose to walk close to God, completely transcend the temporal agony - be starving in Africa or dying of cancer in St. Vincents hospital.

It's telling, isn't it, that you consider basic necessities like food to be what you would expect a sugar daddy to give, but gloves, wills, balloons and petrol not to be. If you're trying to paint God as a parental figure, then in real life, I would call that parental figure a dead-beat if all he did was give me balloons and gloves, but let me starve to death.

Or let die of painful cancer - you forgot to include. That he might cure cancer or alleviate starving or not do so isn't something I'd take him to task for. An easy, pain-free life isn't necessarily on offer. I understand why not and have thus, no problem with it.

I have to question your standards then, what you stand in awe of. A balloon is found?

It's hard to discuss with someone who won't read what's written. It wasn't a balloon being found that mattered, it was confirmation to that woman that God existed. Confirmation she needed.

Wow, that's awesome! Praise be to God! I have to tell everybody this story..

You wouldn't be impressed finding out God existed?

Mainly because you yourself didn't provide the work. You just said something along the lines of asking someone else to do the mathematics and apparently that other person came up with a really absurdly high number. You didn't do the work yourself, you didn't investigate to see if maybe that person's work was off or incorrect in some way.

Tell that to your brain surgeon. You'll go study brain surgery before concluding you should take what he says as accurate?

The person in question was well qualified to do the calculation - having demonstrated on the forum their grasp of mathematics. He was an astro-physicist or something.

I ask you this. Do you honestly consider basic survival necessities like food to be what you'd expect a sugar daddy to dole out

Solving all my ills would be the work of a sugar daddy.

some1whothinks

antiskeptic wrote:

The prime way in which God has moved in my life is in my salvation. Starving Christians will have had him move in the same, most crucial way.

I notice you say starving christians. What about starving non-christians? Beyond that, I do have to question, again, why you think God is capable of and is willing (and has, in your view) found wills, balloons, gloves and gotten you to a petrol station? Why does he get you to petrol stations, but doesn't get starving people to food? (or food to them?)
I know I know, you'll say something like "sugar daddy" or "I don't expect him to solve all ills", but if you do say that (again) you're contradicting yourself. He has apparently solved some ills, for you. He helped you find gloves, as you've said. So why help you, the person behind the username antiskeptic, find gloves, but he won't provide food for the thousands of starving people in Africa?
It'd be one thing if you hadn't posted in this thread with these stories of lost gloves and trips to petrol stations. It'd be one thing if you or some other christian said that God only intervenes at great need - I'd still question as to what could be considered a great need if great numbers of starving people apparently don't but at least you yourself wouldn't be in this position of saying "God doesn't cure all my ills, I don't expect him to cure my ills or anybody elses...but let me tell you a story of how he helped me find my gloves and why he's so great for doing so!"

Or let die of painful cancer - you forgot to include. That he might cure cancer or alleviate starving or not do so isn't something I'd take him to task for.

You're the one comparing him to a parental figure. Part of the job of a parental figure is guiding, raising and caring for young ones in their care. I have to repeat myself - if you pointed to a human parental figure and say "That's a great parent" and told me that he finds gloves for one of his children, but lets the other ten children starve, I'd have to question your sanity, since it seems that your metric for what constitutes a great parent is completely different to mine.

Another question I have to ask - when I brought up starving children, you immediately jumped to "curing all ills"? Why all ills? Why is it that he can/will cure your admittedly minor, trivial ills (lost gloves) but he can't/won't cure major ills? Why do you respect such a figure?

Is it your view that joy, happiness, pleasant living can only be understood and experienced if you put it in contrast with suffering, despair and sadness? If yes, does this mean that in order for one to enjoy a good meal on Monday, one has to starve on Tuesday? To enjoy the company and life of one child, a parent has to suffer the loss of a second? Is it like a mathematical equation, where things are balanced?

The person in question was well qualified to do the calculation - having demonstrated on the forum their grasp of mathematics. He was an astro-physicist or something.

Okay, I'll take your word for it, with a pinch of salt since I don't have the work. This person can calculate odds. How is it you went from "This is an extremely unlikely, improbable series of events" to "This can only be because of God!"?

antiskeptic

some1whothinks wrote: »

I notice you say starving christians. What about starving non-christians?

They won't experience that comfort. They will place their trials where ever their world view has them place them.

Beyond that, I do have to question, again, why you think God is capable of and is willing (and has, in your view) found wills, balloons, gloves and gotten you to a petrol station? Why does he get you to petrol stations, but doesn't get starving people to food? (or food to them?)

I've answer that question already. He provides to all and allows all to suffer what this world has to offer - the difference, for the individual is in the knowing. And the joy/comfort that provides.

That he would answer the particular prayers of those who believe can, I suppose be considered as the response of a father to his children: preferentially acting over those who aren't his children. People aren't born children of God (although that is what he wants all to become), they are reborn children of God. From whence the expression, born again.

I know I know, you'll say something like "sugar daddy" or "I don't expect him to solve all ills", but if you do say that (again) you're contradicting yourself. He has apparently solved some ills, for you. He helped you find gloves, as you've said. So why help you, the person behind the username antiskeptic, find gloves, but he won't provide food for the thousands of starving people in Africa?

God doesn't micro manage the world, it seems to me. The will of man is allowed to express (thus enormous disparity in wealth due to the greed of man) as are the forces of a fallen nature (which brings drought to Africa and not to Ireland), as is Satan. I can't suppose to know why I've a materially better life to those in Africa but would suppose some combination of the above involved.

It'd be one thing if you hadn't posted in this thread with these stories of lost gloves and trips to petrol stations.

It's a Christian forum. I'm posting to Christians and supposing a Christian to be one who has been saved. Since that much would be common amongst us you're left with describing interventions particular to your own life. I could point to the miracle of his retrieving me from an addicted life, meeting what became a wonderful wife, becoming a father - the latter two being well against the odds. But it wouldn't ring miraculous. Would it?

It'd be one thing if you or some other christian said that God only intervenes at great need - I'd still question as to what could be considered a great need if great numbers of starving people apparently don't but at least you yourself wouldn't be in this position of saying "God doesn't cure all my ills, I don't expect him to cure my ills or anybody elses...but let me tell you a story of how he helped me find my gloves and why he's so great for doing so!"

You could object to the preservation of ancient art works and the restoration of old buildings - whilst people in Africa starve for want of a cup of water. But to do so would place you under the spotlight: what are you doing spending money on bandwidth for boards.ie, not to speak of time spent discussing such topics with me when you could contribute the money/time absorbed here improving the life of a family in Africa?

The reason is that life is about something else than trying to make sure all people everywhere have exactly the same level of nominal wealth, health, happiness. If it's good enough for you, me, the Gubberment, then its probably good enough for God.

You're the one comparing him to a parental figure. Part of the job of a parental figure is guiding, raising and caring for young ones in their care. I have to repeat myself - if you pointed to a human parental figure and say "That's a great parent" and told me that he finds gloves for one of his children, but lets the other ten children starve, I'd have to question your sanity, since it seems that your metric for what constitutes a great parent is completely different to mine.

Read my point above about who is the child.

It's worth reminding of the place of pain. Pain is natures (and God's) way of telling us that something is up with things. Injustice, starvation, illness, toothache. Nothing is going to get our fallen attention more than pain. It is pain, afterall, which proves to be the drumbeat route to God; whether you're speaking of biblical figures, addicts, the sick and close to death .. or any other category of pain that has driven people to God. People in comfort don't tend to look for God. Why would they?

Another question I have to ask - when I brought up starving children, you immediately jumped to "curing all ills"? Why all ills? Why is it that he can/will cure your admittedly minor, trivial ills (lost gloves) but he can't/won't cure major ills? Why do you respect such a figure?

See above. He can cure major ills. Ask anyone who is saved and they'll tell you he cured the most serious illness of all for them - even if they only realised how sick they were after they were cured. Their being lost sinners.

And he heals at times, I believe (if not per the televangelist)

And he doesn't heal and we suffer and die, Christians and all. I've no problem with him not curing any major ill I might have. I labour under ills but don't worry that he doesn't cure them. I'm part of a world of suffering, a world he chose to step into and suffer along with. So why not me?

Is it your view that joy, happiness, pleasant living can only be understood and experienced if you put it in contrast with suffering, despair and sadness? If yes, does this mean that in order for one to enjoy a good meal on Monday, one has to starve on Tuesday? To enjoy the company and life of one child, a parent has to suffer the loss of a second? Is it like a mathematical equation, where things are balanced?

Not quite so formulaic but for sure, I don't suppose the construct of this world other than as you say. I've a well off friend who has done well in business and is in semi-retirement in his late fifties. He can holiday were he pleases and can taste of the best but he seems to be missing that which is provided for, if not by suffering, then at least by the challenge and disappointment and pain and worry that used to come from his business.

I treasure my son more because of the tinge of worry & projected concern for his possible loss/harm than I think would be the case if I was assured of a happy ever after for him. I don't suppose an up without a down, a ying without a yang. Quite how that will work out in heaven I can't quite figure out (indeed, the Bible says we couldn't figure it out). Perhaps it need involve ever increasing contentment, forever: the current being usurped by what is to come next thus providing the contrast. Who knows though.

Okay, I'll take your word for it, with a pinch of salt since I don't have the work. This person can calculate odds. How is it you went from "This is an extremely unlikely, improbable series of events" to "This can only be because of God!"?

God was known already + a tremendously unlikely event (I'm an engineer and though not easily able to calculate the magnitude of the numbers I knew them to be huge) + a class/style that typifies my ongoing experience with God as well as his interactions with others. I mean, if you could take your unbelieving hat off for a second and see a balloon caught in a bush (in the context it occurred) then wouldn't that be classy? The major being the certain confirmation of his existence (for someone primed to receive it - although I understand the atheist would/has to park such an event elsewhere - but struggle hard they must (you can have a crack at an explanation if you like)), the minor, her daughters balloon back. If you can't then you need try harder to take off that atheist hat for a moment.

Black Menorca

I've been in some very bad situations. when at my lowest, I asked god to help me. An unworthy sinner asking for another chance, a last chance and I was heard.

Where I am today is a miracle and I have Almighty God to thank.