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The new, vicious fight

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12357…16

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    #122
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Or ensure that 100% of all fetuses are healthy?
    Without aborting the unhealthy ones, that is.)

    You can't, but they weren't suggesting any different.The poster's argument amounts to safe, legal and rare, which is eminently sensible.

    Abortion is a last resort, it's the airbag system - the mechanism should definitely be there, but ideally you'd rather make sure the driver didn't have to avail of it. That's why the inevitable waffle about contraception and what she *should* have done is always so irritating, because we're talking about the phase well beyond that.

    To borrow the weird dog fence analogy, its all very well and good discussing what type of fence should have been built, but the dog's already in the yard by the time this conversation starts and it's going mental, so now what?


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    #123
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    While I agree, it's hard not to find it personally infuriating to hear 60 year old blokes with less than ideal family situations themselves making pronouncements to young women who actually can get pregnant on how they're supposed to feel about it and what's going to happen the body they actually have to live in, often in the most incredibly insulting terms and almost invariably misinformed or dishonest.

    It's not ideal, but I don't blame them one bit. The anti marriage equality ****e I had to walk by to work every morning was far milder and it still made my blood boil that somebody could be such a nasty bastard to living breathing strangers over something that's essentially just an intellectual sparring match to them.

    Ah the old it won't happen to them so they shouldn't have a view, interestingly its always men that are referenced in relation to this too its never those damn infertile or older women (since a 60 year old man could potentially get someone pregnant logically they have a greater interest in it)


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    #124
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    https://instagram.com/p/4t6UPgN8sl/

    "Abortion is witchcraft"

    Someone's been watching Penny Dreadful on Netflix.

    Must be embarrassing having them lot around. They do know people can't do magic ?


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    #125
    Merces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭Merces


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    https://instagram.com/p/4t6UPgN8sl/

    "Abortion is witchcraft"

    Someone's been watching Penny Dreadful on Netflix.

    Embarrassing...


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    #126
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Ah the old it won't happen to them so they shouldn't have a view, interestingly its always men that are referenced in relation to this too its never those damn infertile or older women (since a 60 year old man could potentially get someone pregnant logically they have a greater interest in it)

    Indicate to me where I said "They shouldn't have a view".

    They can have all the views they like, between themselves. But to actually want to impose that on somebody else? To actually dictate to somebody what is right to do with their body under circumstances they cannot possibly find themselves? Pretty, pretty, pretty galling. I'd get a frosty reception preaching to black people about racism for the same reasons.

    Aul wans have had the capacity to get pregnant at some point, and have had to make immediate decisions accordingly. Nevertheless, I've no problem pouring scorn on 60 year old women who got to make the choices which worked for them and wish to deny others the same right.


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    #127
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Indicate to me where I said "They shouldn't have a view".

    They can have all the views they like, between themselves. But to actually want to impose that on somebody else? To actually dictate to somebody what is right to do with their body under circumstances they cannot possibly find themselves? Pretty, pretty, pretty galling. I'd get a frosty reception preaching to black people about racism for the same reasons.

    Aul wans have had the capacity to get pregnant at some point, and have had to make immediate decisions accordingly. Nevertheless, I've no problem pouring scorn on 60 year old women who got to make the choices which worked for them and wish to deny others the same right.

    And abortion isn't imposing your view on someone else? Tell that to the baby that's just been told it's mother didn't want it.


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    #128
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    And abortion isn't imposing your view on someone else? Tell that to the baby that's just been told it's mother didn't want it.

    Did you have a particular hypothetical baby you wanted me to speak with or should I just ask whoever told the hypothetical babies that how they got in touch before.


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    #129
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Indicate to me where I said "They shouldn't have a view".

    They can have all the views they like, between themselves. But to actually want to impose that on somebody else? To actually dictate to somebody what is right to do with their body under circumstances they cannot possibly find themselves? .

    Aul wans have had the capacity to get pregnant at some point, and have had to make immediate decisions accordingly. Nevertheless, I've no problem pouring scorn on 60 year old women who got to make the choices which worked for them and wish to deny others the same right.

    The attempt to reduce the argument down to bodily integrity doesn't hold up though, it it did we would have completely elective termination of pregnancy (abortion terminology is illdefined) at any point we don't (and very very few if any countries do). However your prolife or choice, abortion isn't like getting a tattoo or removing a tumor it involves a whole variety of ethical implications.


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    I'd get a frosty reception preaching to black people about racism for the same reasons

    So we should all restrict our views and our democratic rights to issues that directly effect us (and as I pointed out abortion does have a potential impact for the people you highlight), thats a very popular opinion on tumblr and The Guardian but thankfully not as common outside it.

    Edit: There is good arguments for being pro-choice but if you reduce everything down to "its my body I'l do what I want with it" you have to deal with the fact that people will point out that its not that simple


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    #130
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    And abortion isn't imposing your view on someone else? Tell that to the baby that's just been told it's mother didn't want it.

    Women don't just have abortions because they don't want a baby. Women who've had planned pregnancies, even ivf, have abortions.


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    #131
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Did you have a particular hypothetical baby you wanted me to speak with or should I just ask whoever told the hypothetical babies that how they got in touch before.

    I'm just curious as to why you have an issue with some people having an opinion, and at the same time are looking to impose your own opinion on everyone else.


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    #132
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    I'm just curious as to why you have an issue with some people having an opinion, and at the same time are looking to impose your own opinion on everyone else.

    How is offering women the choice of whether to continue a pregnancy imposing anything on anyone?


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    #133
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    lazygal wrote: »
    How is offering women the choice of whether to continue a pregnancy imposing anything on anyone?

    I'l get slated for saying this but since it takes two to tango isn't it always imposing on at least one other person?
    (now obviously to a lesser degree but its still an imposition)


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    #134
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    lazygal wrote: »
    How is offering women the choice of whether to continue a pregnancy imposing anything on anyone?

    Again, tell that to the unborn child.


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    #135
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I'l get slated for saying this but since it takes two to tango isn't it always imposing on at least one other person?
    (now obviously to a lesser degree but its still an imposition)

    I can't impose on anyone to vindicate my right to life. I'm under no obligation to donate blood or.organs should my born children require them. Why must I continue to gestate a foetus to vindicate its right to life?


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    #136
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Again, tell that to the unborn child.

    Which unborn child? Why once my children were born was I under no obligation to use my body to vindicate their right to life? Do embryos which are frozen have a right to life too?


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    #137
    Irelandcool
    Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Irelandcool


    I find it kinda funny that when it comes to gay marriage the majority of of people were in favor and not when it comes to abortion there is a split. Some of the people who were in the gay pride parades are likely now in different sides.

    Anyways I think it be to risky to legislate right now as it clear the majority of people in this country disagree with.


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    #138
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    Pretty scummy thing to do though - bring a child to a pro life rally, and have him hold a poster.


    I bet those pro life people really help actual babies that are born in poverty or with physical difficulties ?

    Or more likely they don't give a **** about a baby once its outside the womb.


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    #139
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    lazygal wrote: »
    I can't impose on anyone to vindicate my right to life. I'm under no obligation to donate blood or.organs should my born children require them. Why must I continue to gestate a foetus to vindicate its right to life?

    I do agree thats true but that leads back to this problem
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    The attempt to reduce the argument down to bodily integrity doesn't hold up though, it it did we would have completely elective termination of pregnancy (abortion terminology is illdefined) at any point we don't (and very very few if any countries do).


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    #140
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    Also using people with down syndrome at the protest - yeah classy, use a someone who can't really understand the situation to impose your little agenda.


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    #141
    frostyjacks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    the_monkey wrote: »
    Also using people with down syndrome at the protest - yeah classy, use a someone who can't really understand the situation to impose your little agenda.

    Yeah, we all know what the abortionists like to do to babies once they're diagnosed with Downs syndrome.


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    #142
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,581 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Yeah, we all know what the abortionists like to do to babies once they're diagnosed with Downs syndrome.
    Are you going to keep going on with this?


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    #143
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I do agree thats true but that leads back to this problem

    What's the difference between requiring women to gestate foetuses regardless of their wishes or the health implications for women and mandatory blood and organ donations to vindicate the rights to life of the born?


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    #144
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Yeah, we all know what the abortionists like to do to babies once they're diagnosed with Downs syndrome.

    Like Marie Stopes clinics? I hear that the CEO earns £500k a year.


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    #145
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Yeah, we all know what the abortionists like to do to babies once they're diagnosed with Downs syndrome.


    abortionists ??

    Pro choice people you mean ? - Up to them ... if they want to go through with it - fine , if they don't and have the pregnancy terminated - again their choice - pro choice !!


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    #146
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    lazygal wrote: »
    Like Marie Stopes clinics? I hear that the CEO earns £500k a year.

    I'm confused, the CEO of Marie Stopes does earn a vast amount of money (was in the news a bit few years back about high earnings in charities in the UK).
    Checked its 290,000


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    #147
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I'm confused, the CEO of Marie Stopes does earn a vast amount of money (was in the news a bit few years back about high earnings in charities in the UK).
    Checked its 290,000

    It's some sort of "gotcha" the pro gestation crowd like to throw around, that the salary of the CEO of Marie Stopes is somehow profiting from abortions.


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    #148
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    frostyjacks wrote: »
    Again, tell that to the unborn child.

    How would one communicate with cells ?


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    #149
    the_monkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭the_monkey


    Pro lifers, you do realise that abortion is not the same as murdering a baby yeah ??


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    #150
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    lazygal wrote: »
    What's the difference between requiring women to gestate foetuses regardless of their wishes or the health implications for women and mandatory blood and organ donations to vindicate the rights to life of the born?

    I'd be for mandatory blood donations (for men and women but I'm a horrible facist!), I guess the difference is in terms of practicality, for blood donations they can be sourced, for organ donations there is a substantial detrimental impact, I agree when we talk about abortion thats motivated by risk to health the comparison is valid though


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    #151
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I'd be for mandatory blood donations (for men and women but I'm a horrible facist!), I guess the difference is in terms of practicality, for blood donations they can be sourced, for organ donations there is a substantial detrimental impact, I agree when we talk about abortion thats motivated by risk to health the comparison is valid though

    Pregnancy and birth can impose significant practical difficulties on women. I had to have both mine by c section and other side effects of pregnancy such as dental problems I had to pay to deal with myself. Even a straightforward pregnancy and birth imposes significant restrictions on girls and women.


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