What happens if an exam paper goes missing

Hollister11

I was reading an article on TheJournal of an examiner correcting leaving cert papers on the train (here if anyone is interested).

This got me thinking. what would happen to the student if one of their exams went missing. Would they automatically be given an A1 or would they have to re-sit the exam.

Magnate

I don't think it's ever happened before so I'm not entirely sure what the protocol would be.

However I did read about some exam that had to be cancelled because of a fire I think. The affected students were offered their mock grades but they complained and were allowed to resit the paper.

BlueWolf16

Yeah the student is given a mock grade, or like one of their school tests I think.. I wouldn't mind if my examiner lost my maths and biology papers, resit in august, look up the answers online and have a nice, fancy A1.

spurious

If the procedures are followed properly the only place it could go missing (without a mark already being recorded for it) would be in the exam centre, where for some reason it didn't get into the envelope with the others, or if the corrector had an accident in their car with the papers onboard on their way home from Athlone and the papers were either stolen or burned.

Magnate

BlueWolf16 wrote: »

Yeah the student is given a mock grade, or like one of their school tests I think.. I wouldn't mind if my examiner lost my maths and biology papers, resit in august, look up the answers online and have a nice, fancy A1.

I'd say you resit the alternate paper unfortunately

randylonghorn

Magnate wrote: »

However I did read about some exam that had to be cancelled because of a fire I think. The affected students were offered their mock grades ...

Um, any source for that, Magnate?

Magnate

randylonghorn wrote: »

Um, any source for that, Magnate?

I'll have to do a bit of digging, it was a random article I was reading a while back on exam mishaps.


Edit: That was easier than I thought,

Here you go -> http://www.dailyedge.ie/reeling-in-the-leaving-certs-6-memorable-moments-from-past-exams-150886-Jun2011/

Students of St Laurence’s College in Loughlinstown, Co Dublin, had to re-sit their Geography exam in 2001 after the first attempt was disrupted by a fire at the school lunchroom. RTÉ reported that initially the Department of Education had said that grades would be awarded in accordance with school results, rather than the Leaving Cert exam results. After objections from students and teachers, the department said the students could re-take the exam.

And here's the RTE article mentioned:

The Department of Education has agreed to allow a group of Leaving Certificate students to re-sit their Geography exams. The exams were interrupted on Monday by a fire in the lunchroom of St Laurence's College in Loughlinstown, County Dublin. The move reverses an earlier decision to award grades based on school results, to which students and their parents had objected.

The Minister for Education, Dr Michael Woods, described the circumstances of the fire as "wholly exceptional". But the students and their parents were angry at the decision by the Department to award grades based on school-year results. Officials from the department met the school authorities yesterday evening and reached an agreement that will enable the Leaving Cert students to re-sit their exams.

Michael Woods told the Dáil that the school authorities would confirm the time and date of those exams later today. He also said that Junior Certificate candidates would receive a grade in Geography, following consultation between school authorities and the Department.

randylonghorn

Ok, that fits a bit better.

Firstly, "school results" would not necessarily correspond to Mocks results only, though they would be likely to play a part.

Secondly, I was wondering how the SEC were prepared to stand over Mocks results which they have no hand in setting or correcting, but that was 2001 and the SEC were set up in 2003 to make the whole process more independent of the Department.

In fairness, the old Exams Section in DES were pretty good at what they did too, but it would have been more under the direct control of the Minister, and Ministers are good at "let's dream up a solution to a very unusual event completely off the cuff and without thinking it through", especially when they're caught on the hop by media etc.

Thirdly, the Minister at that time was Michael Woods. 'Nuff said!

jca

Maybe I'm imagining it but was there a case where woodwork pieces for either the leaving or junior cert were burned in a fire and the students had to resit the practical exam.

A97

I don't know if there's any information on that fire but did they sit the same exam? It might have been a blessing in disguise for some students if they had read through the questions or had a friend in another school to tell them about/ give them the paper.:p

randylonghorn

There are alternate / back-up papers prepared every year, just in case of emergency.

Remember Englishgate a few years ago? ... when English P2 was given out instead of P1 by mistake, and the whole country had to do the back-up paper the following Saturday?

A97

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are alternate / back-up papers prepared every year, just in case of emergency.

Remember Englishgate a few years ago? ... when English P2 was given out instead of P1 by mistake, and the whole country had to do the back-up paper the following Saturday?

I do remember that.;) The only difference between the two is that one paper was sat by the entire country and the other would have only been sat by a single school.

If they make the exams fairly then it shouldn't be an issue but I could imagine someone complaining that either the school or the rest of the country got an easier paper. Also, it might mess around with the confidentiality a little if the corrector of the obviously different exam papers knew someone in the school. To be fair though, the latter is quite unlikely and you would hope that they'd be professional about it.

evolving_doors

I suppose there's no easy way around it. Back-up paper is probably the least worst option.

rainbowtrout

A97 wrote: »

I do remember that.;) The only difference between the two is that one paper was sat by the entire country and the other would have only been sat by a single school.

If they make the exams fairly then it shouldn't be an issue but I could imagine someone complaining that either the school or the rest of the country got an easier paper. Also, it might mess around with the confidentiality a little if the corrector of the obviously different exam papers knew someone in the school. To be fair though, the latter is quite unlikely and you would hope that they'd be professional about it.

But that didn't happen. The supervisor gave out the wrong paper. A few students started reading it and realised it was the wrong paper so he took them back. Then the students tweeted about it. The school wasn't aware it had happened until the SEC contacted the school.

What should have happened is that Paper 2 should have gone ahead in that school. The supervisor should have kept all the students in the school and away from other students, phones, outside world basically and then gave them paper one in the afternoon.

Then he should have reported it to the SEC. He did none of the above and cost the SEC €1 million to run the new exam on the Saturday.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But that didn't happen. The supervisor gave out the wrong paper. A few students started reading it and realised it was the wrong paper so he took them back. Then the students tweeted about it. The school wasn't aware it had happened until the SEC contacted the school.

What should have happened is that Paper 2 should have gone ahead in that school. The supervisor should have kept all the students in the school and away from other students, phones, outside world basically and then gave them paper one in the afternoon.

Then he should have reported it to the SEC. He did none of the above and cost the SEC €1 million to run the new exam on the Saturday.

Although, would it be fair to give out a different exam. (even if it is a different paper but same subject). Also, trying to keep students from not leaving the room would have been tricky... who's going to get all their lunches.. the books they left to do revision for the next exam (granted it's just the comprehension but some still have essays and structure-points on flashcards). So in that sense, once one student leaves the room (bathroom even!) then the whole shebang is compromised.

On the whole too though there wasn;t that much outrage on the student's parts so fair play to them for just getting on with it!

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Although would it be fair to give out another exam. (even if it is a different paper but same subject). Also, trying to keep students from not leaving the room would have been tricky... who's going to get all their lunches.. the books they left to do revision for the next exam (granted it's just the comprehension but some still have essays and structure-points on flashcards). So in that sense, once one student leaves the room (bathroom even!) then the whole shebang is compromised.

On the whole too though there wasn;t that much outrage on the student's parts so fair play to them for just getting on with it!

I think in that instance students are not allowed leave the room for the day and the supervisor has to send word (probably to the principal) to organise lunches for the students to be brought to the room. i'm pretty sure it has happened in the past, albeit a rare event.

As for going to the bathroom, well can't be any different from going in the middle of the exam.

Probably another good reason for splitting English over 2 days to lessen the risk of it happening again.

randylonghorn

A97 wrote: »

I do remember that.;) The only difference between the two is that one paper was sat by the entire country and the other would have only been sat by a single school.

If they make the exams fairly then it shouldn't be an issue but I could imagine someone complaining that either the school or the rest of the country got an easier paper. Also, it might mess around with the confidentiality a little if the corrector of the obviously different exam papers knew someone in the school. To be fair though, the latter is quite unlikely and you would hope that they'd be professional about it.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I suppose there's no easy way around it. Back-up paper is probably the least worst option.

Exactly. A97's points are valid, but none of them are that catastrophic. Easy enough for example to check that the corrector had no connections in the school (it would probably be a Supervising Examiner or even the ACE him/herself correcting anyway; they would have to agree a different Marking Scheme anyway, and why bother to train an extra person in on it for the sake of one pack?)

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But that didn't happen.

The "other" he's talking about is the school which had the fire some years back; see above.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What should have happened is that Paper 2 should have gone ahead in that school. The supervisor should have kept all the students in the school and away from other students, phones, outside world basically and then gave them paper one in the afternoon.

Then he should have reported it to the SEC. He did none of the above and cost the SEC €1 million to run the new exam on the Saturday.

He botched it all right, but not so sure simply saying "ok, we'll go ahead with Paper 2 so!" would have worked out great either.

Students would have had a panic attack, and complained bitterly that they were missing an extra night's study for P2 that everyone else got ... that has the makings of a court case right there.

Plus with P2 being scheduled for the following day, that would have involved sequestering the students overnight in the school, not so easy an undertaking as arranging lunches ...

Not so easy either in that scenario to 100% ensure that not even one student got access to a phone or the internet ... all it would take would be one text!

rainbowtrout

randylonghorn wrote: »

He botched it all right, but not so sure simply saying "ok, we'll go ahead with Paper 2 so!" would have worked out great either.

Students would have had a panic attack, and complained bitterly that they were missing an extra night's study for P2 that everyone else got ... that has the makings of a court case right there.

Plus with P2 being scheduled for the following day, that would have involved sequestering the students overnight in the school, not so easy an undertaking as arranging lunches ...

Not so easy either in that scenario to 100% ensure that not even one student got access to a phone or the internet ... all it would take would be one text!

Was that not the last year that English 1 and 2 were on the same day, hence the mix up?

The following year it was English 1 and Engineering/Home Ec as it is now, so less likely to make that mistake.

languagenerd

rainbowtrout wrote: »

.

Probably another good reason for splitting English over 2 days to lessen the risk of it happening again.

It was already on separate days in 2009. We found out at 9pm on the Wednesday (after paper 1) that the Paper 2 exam on the Thursday morning wasn't going ahead. I won't ever forget that stress :P

The change they made afterwards was that the two papers weren't both morning exams (and therefore not in the same colour envelope). Now I think Paper 1 is Wednesday morning and Paper 2 on Thursday afternoon.

XxMCRxBabyxX

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Was that not the last year that English 1 and 2 were on the same day, hence the mix up?

The following year it was English 1 and Engineering/Home Ec as it is now, so less likely to make that mistake.

The papers were on different days. I know that I didn't have to go in on whatever day P2 was meant to be because of that. I remember the absolute panic I went through that night waiting to hear if I had to go in for P2 or not. It wasn't announced until the 9 O'Clock news or something like that!

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Was that not the last year that English 1 and 2 were on the same day, hence the mix up?

The following year it was English 1 and Engineering/Home Ec as it is now, so less likely to make that mistake.

Nope, read the link in my post!

They had already separated the two on the basis that having both on the same day was two heavy ...

languagenerd wrote: »

It was already on separate days in 2009. We found out at 9pm on the Wednesday (after paper 1) that the Paper 2 exam on the Thursday morning wasn't going ahead. I won't ever forget that stress :P

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

The papers were on different days. I know that I didn't have to go in on whatever day P2 was meant to be because of that. I remember the absolute panic I went through that night waiting to hear if I had to go in for P2 or not. It wasn't announced until the 9 O'Clock news or something like that!

I won't ever forget it either, and I wasn't even doing LC! :pac:

Modding this place that night was ... indescribable! >.<

Something like 1200 users still on at 1.30 a.m. I remember ... :rolleyes:

Magnate

^ So grateful I didn't have to deal with that. Sounds like an absolute nightmare.

...Oh how I love being finished

languagenerd

randylonghorn wrote: »

I won't ever forget it either, and I wasn't even doing LC! :pac:

Modding this place that night was ... indescribable! >.<

Something like 1200 users still on at 1.30 a.m. I remember ... :rolleyes:

In hindsight, it wasn't the biggest deal ever. But at the time... When you're already stressed to the max, you've just had your first exam, you've got your study plan worked out based on the days between each subject and you've been cramming poets since midday, only to find out at 9pm that the exam isn't happening til Saturday (which you'd set aside for Irish cramming that you now can't do)... I remember calling my mother and just screaming on the phone and texting my friends, none of whom had been watching the news and none of whom believed me. (It ruined my friends' 18th as well. Her birthday was the Friday, so she was going to take a few hours off in the evening to celebrate, but then had to spend it cramming for English the next day instead.)

None of this helps us answer what happens if a paper goes missing though - hopefully that just never happens!

randylonghorn

languagenerd wrote: »

In hindsight, it wasn't the biggest deal ever. But at the time... When you're already stressed to the max, you've just had your first exam, you've got your study plan worked out based on the days between each subject and you've been cramming poets since midday, only to find out at 9pm that the exam isn't happening til Saturday (which you'd set aside for Irish cramming that you now can't do)... I remember calling my mother and just screaming on the phone and texting my friends, none of whom had been watching the news and none of whom believed me. (It ruined my friends' 18th as well. Her birthday was the Friday, so she was going to take a few hours off in the evening to celebrate, but then had to spend it cramming for English the next day instead.)

Nah, it was understandable tbh, LC is stressful enough without that extra layer.

XxMCRxBabyxX

randylonghorn wrote: »

Nope, read the link in my post!

They had already separated the two on the basis that having both on the same day was two heavy ...



I won't ever forget it either, and I wasn't even doing LC! :pac:

Modding this place that night was ... indescribable! >.<

Something like 1200 users still on at 1.30 a.m. I remember ... :rolleyes:

I remember that thread. Wasn't a poster at the time but spent the whole night reading! Wouldn't have wanted to be modding that!


I will forever hold a grudge against that invigilator and the school!

EoghanIRL

What happened to the invigilator afterwards?

Did Randy get his hands on him/her?

evolving_doors

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I remember that thread. Wasn't a poster at the time but spent the whole night reading! Wouldn't have wanted to be modding that!


I will forever hold a grudge against that invigilator and the school!

In fairness though the system was open to Murphy's law. They were only relying on a few seconds visual inspection for the whole thing to come off perfectly, and that's every year in every centre for every subject (invigilator has access to all papers so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility to 'assume' you have the right one every time)

.. so really it's amazing it hadn't happened sooner.

As to what happens if a paper goes missing?

It depends at what stage it goes missing maybe.

I havn't a clue really .. just give em an A and say nothin to no-one, and hope they don't appeal :pac::pac::pac:!!!

spurious

If the procedures are followed properly (and barring an accident on the way home or a fire in the corrector's home) a paper will not go missing.

That's why someone allegedly correcting on a train is a big deal.

evolving_doors

spurious wrote: »

If the procedures are followed properly (and barring an accident on the way home or a fire in the corrector's home) a paper will not go missing.

That's why someone allegedly correcting on a train is a big deal.

I made the mistake once of collecting exam papers 'incorrectly' (I won;t say how ) during an in-house school exam. Another teacher filled me in on the flaw in my method ...paper lost.... but the student had to agree (I contacted the parents) to re-sit a different paper. It was really obvious what happened when his results were so dire despite all his protestations about me 'loosing' all his hard work.


I think the only other place is during postage of scripts for checking by a supervisor... but even then all the grades are recorded before a script is sent off.

Only thing left really is for the dog to eat it.

IvyTheTerrible

You wouldn't get an A1 but you might get a cash payout!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/report-on-lost-leaving-cert-art-is-held-up-by-legal-issues-1.41823
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/students-get-18-000-for-missing-leaving-cert-craftwork-1.114228

(This happened at my school back in the 90's. Students got their Art results and found them strangely low. It turned out that the practical part of their exam had been lost. Seemingly the package fell off the train to Athlone!)

evolving_doors

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

You wouldn't get an A1 but you might get a cash payout!
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/report-on-lost-leaving-cert-art-is-held-up-by-legal-issues-1.41823
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/students-get-18-000-for-missing-leaving-cert-craftwork-1.114228

(This happened at my school back in the 90's. Students got their Art results and found them strangely low. It turned out that the practical part of their exam had been lost. Seemingly the package fell off the train to Athlone!)

Wow

"missing artwork of 14 students in the worst affected school, the Ursuline convent in Sligo, had turned up in a local factory."

I wonder did the factory put up the artwork in the canteen or something!

and to add further insult to injury:

"One student's mother wrote to the Department last October seeking information about all components of her daughter's marks, but her letter was mislaid ".

We've had that tactic from the dept in our school...

1. Send an application for resources to DEpt before a deadline (takes ages getting signatures and documents etc.)
2. Dept doesn't acknowledge and deadline looms.
3. Ring dept... they say they never got it
4. Get all documentation from scratch (and photocopy it just in case this time) and re-send.
5. Dept says they never got it
6. Tell dept that we have proof of postage to say we sent it.
7. Dept say envelope must have been empty!!!
8. Repeat step 4 to step 7, but this time we say that they must have gotten it because we have proof of the weight and the envelope was tripple sealed with sellotape and photographed!! We threaten to lodge formal complaint and contact local TD's!
9. Dept puts us on hold....
10. Finds application in 30 seconds.

Moral of the story: mention the word 'TD'.

A97

Once again, there's no fair thing to do in that situation but wouldn't it have been best to just mark them out of what they received once the error was discovered? Although it might have been too late at that point.

evolving_doors

A97 wrote: »

Once again, there's no fair thing to do in that situation but wouldn't it have been best to just mark them out of what they received once the error was discovered? Although it might have been too late at that point.

I suppose it'd be unfair. Generally the exam should allow for different skills and preferences to be presented so that students can do better in other areas. So if your Art practical had gone missing (and this was your strongest preference) would it be fair to just give you the grade for the other area... so in essence the exam across the board would have been 'unfair' to all students.

languagenerd

Surely with things like pieces of artwork (and other practical subjects), they could keep a photographic record for back-up? I know it's not the same as a hands-on inspection of the piece, but if there were a series of photos from different angles, an examiner could probably tell how good the workmanship was... (I am probably talking crap here, but it just strikes me as odd that there wouldn't be a record of it)

Though when you think about the number of candidates and all the components there are, it's actually surprising that we don't here about things going missing more frequently. The system obviously works well most of the time!

rainbowtrout

languagenerd wrote: »

Surely with things like pieces of artwork (and other practical subjects), they could keep a photographic record for back-up? I know it's not the same as a hands-on inspection of the piece, but if there were a series of photos from different angles, an examiner could probably tell how good the workmanship was... (I am probably talking crap here, but it just strikes me as odd that there wouldn't be a record of it)

Though when you think about the number of candidates and all the components there are, it's actually surprising that we don't here about things going missing more frequently. The system obviously works well most of the time!

This was 1995. People didn't go around with a camera in their pocket all the time taking photos of everything that moved. Using cameras was a special occasion thing. Taking photos of projects back then would have been extremely unusual even for Art I'd imagine.

A lot of practical coursework is now examined in the schools, so there is less chance of work going missing and also for it to get damaged in transit.

Enjoy Heroin Responsibly

Hollister11 wrote: »

This got me thinking. what would happen to the student if one of their exams went missing. Would they automatically be given an A1 or would they have to re-sit the exam.

The SEC would issue an "ah shure it'll be grand" statement stating that examiners will take the error into account when marking and nobody will loose out as a result. The media will unquestioningly report on the above statement despite it being patently nonsensical to anyone with an ounce of understanding of how these things work.

Wing126

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are alternate / back-up papers prepared every year, just in case of emergency.

Remember Englishgate a few years ago? ... when English P2 was given out instead of P1 by mistake, and the whole country had to do the back-up paper the following Saturday?

That was my secondary school.

randylonghorn

Your year?

evolving_doors

Wing126 wrote: »

That was my secondary school.

Naturally enough I blame the first student who received the wrong paper.... he should have known and handed it back :pac::pac::pac:

The poor teacher.

Moody_mona

I don't do superintendent, but don't one or two students have to sign the package the exams are in? Can only vaguely remember from my youth. What's the purpose of that?

Thar_Cian

Is it not to ensure the papers haven't been opened?