Buy Leaf now or wait? Questions within

Roen

Hi all,

I've been reading away on this forum for quite some time. The info is gold so far but I'm still unclear as to a few things.

So I suppose the main queries I have are as follows.

1. Is the SEI grant still available? Their site isn't that useful.
2. Can the grant be used on top of the Nissan scrappage deal?
3. Real range versus actual range. Can I actually expect to drive from Waterford to Wexford and back on a full charge? 130km trip.
4. How much would a charge point in a second house cost, can any spark do it or are you forced to go through a list of approved guys?
5. Is there a facelift model or new tech battery coming in 2016?
6. Is there an entirely new model with new battery tech coming in 2017/18?
7. Is ICE rage an issue? I can imagine myself getting quite animated if I can't charge because of someone's lack of consideration.
8. What use is the solar spoiler? Does it just charge the leisure battery or does it charge the main battery?

I'd be going the PCP route to finance the deal in the hope that I can trade in against any newer model that will appear.
Hope it's not too question heavy.
Cheers guys!

GreyDad

Roen wrote: »

Hi all,

I've been reading away on this forum for quite some time. The info is gold so far but I'm still unclear as to a few things.

So I suppose the main queries I have are as follows.

1. Is the SEI grant still available? Their site isn't that useful.
2. Can the grant be used on top of the Nissan scrappage deal?
3. Real range versus actual range. Can I actually expect to drive from Waterford to Wexford and back on a full charge? 130km trip.
4. How much would a charge point in a second house cost, can any spark do it or are you forced to go through a list of approved guys?
5. Is there a facelift model or new tech battery coming in 2016?
6. Is there an entirely new model with new battery tech coming in 2017/18?
7. Is ICE rage an issue? I can imagine myself getting quite animated if I can't charge because of someone's lack of consideration.
8. What use is the solar spoiler? Does it just charge the leisure battery or does it charge the main battery?

I'd be going the PCP route to finance the deal in the hope that I can trade in against any newer model that will appear.
Hope it's not too question heavy.
Cheers guys!

I'll leave the locals to answer 1 2 and 4 but have a stab at a few of the others:

3. 130km in a current Leaf will need some top up charging to be save, especially in winter when battery capacity reduces slightly. Teo startegies: slow charging at your destination during the day (even 13a for a few hours would be enough) or a 10 min rapid charge on the way back (Mad_Lad strategy)

5. We believe so and also think it will have a bit more range but no one really knows for sure so we're all watching and waiting.

6. We think this is more likely and it will be a bigger overhaul but again everything is speculation at this stage. Nissan is very secretive so everyone is piecing ideas together based on odd connents that have slipped out. They've said it will look 'more conventional' and they have alluded to a 544km range test vehicle at a recent shareholders conference so it will be something in between
7. Can't comment But may become more prevablent as more EV's get on the roads and demand for charging goes up. This should of course drive more charging infrastructure but there will no doubt be petty squabbles in the nest as everyone fights for their space

8. Solar spoiler is on the top end Tekna (UK) or SL (Ireland/US) Leaf and charges the small 12V accessory battery only

Hope that helps a bit

Cheers
Neil

reboot

Roen wrote: »

Hi all,

I've been reading away on this forum for quite some time. The info is gold so far but I'm still unclear as to a few things.

So I suppose the main queries I have are as follows.

1. Is the SEI grant still available? Their site isn't that useful.
2. Can the grant be used on top of the Nissan scrappage deal?
3. Real range versus actual range. Can I actually expect to drive from Waterford to Wexford and back on a full charge? 130km trip.
4. How much would a charge point in a second house cost, can any spark do it or are you forced to go through a list of approved guys?
5. Is there a facelift model or new tech battery coming in 2016?
6. Is there an entirely new model with new battery tech coming in 2017/18?
7. Is ICE rage an issue? I can imagine myself getting quite animated if I can't charge because of someone's lack of consideration.
8. What use is the solar spoiler? Does it just charge the leisure battery or does it charge the main battery?

I'd be going the PCP route to finance the deal in the hope that I can trade in against any newer model that will appear.
Hope it's not too question heavy.
Cheers guys!

Although I am a fan of solar,unfortunately in this case its more of a fashion item. Think its only 5 watts.

Roen

GreyDad wrote: »

I'll leave the locals to answer 1 2 and 4 but have a stab at a few of the others:

3. 130km in a current Leaf will need some top up charging to be save, especially in winter when battery capacity reduces slightly. Teo startegies: slow charging at your destination during the day (even 13a for a few hours would be enough) or a 10 min rapid charge on the way back (Mad_Lad strategy)

5. We believe so and also think it will have a bit more range but no one really knows for sure so we're all watching and waiting.

6. We think this is more likely and it will be a bigger overhaul but again everything is speculation at this stage. Nissan is very secretive so everyone is piecing ideas together based on odd connents that have slipped out. They've said it will look 'more conventional' and they have alluded to a 544km range test vehicle at a recent shareholders conference so it will be something in between
7. Can't comment But may become more prevablent as more EV's get on the roads and demand for charging goes up. This should of course drive more charging infrastructure but there will no doubt be petty squabbles in the nest as everyone fights for their space

8. Solar spoiler is on the top end Tekna (UK) or SL (Ireland/US) Leaf and charges the small 12V accessory battery only

Hope that helps a bit

Cheers
Neil

Thanks Neil,
Appreciate the reply.

3. Surprised to hear that considering the official range is approx 200km. That said I assume Nissan are as creative with their figures as all the rest when it comes to MPG from conventional ICE cars. Would have thought it to be nearer 150-170 though.

5 & 6. Would be typical me to be delighted with my new car and then (in my eyes) see it turn to ash when a newer, fancier model was announced a week later. It's not like the current model will be any less functional than it is, but my mindset would see me kicking myself.

7. Well I suppose having thought about it it's up to the individual. I'm either going to tolerate it or not.

@reboot Cheers for the reply re solar charger!

8. Makes sense I suppose. You'd never get something worth while into the main battery from a panel that size. Leisure battery is better than nowt though. Even if it's just for charging your phone and radio etc it's better coming out of that than the main battery.

Oh one thing I forgot to ask, how's boot space?
I have seen the pics but I sometimes carry a couple of lads with climbing gear, rucksacks etc. Is it practical or does the battery all but make the boot only good for shopping?


Thanks once more!
Ronan.

Benny_Cake

Roen wrote: »

Oh one thing I forgot to ask, how's boot space?
I have seen the pics but I sometimes carry a couple of lads with climbing gear, rucksacks etc. Is it practical or does the battery all but make the boot only good for shopping?


Thanks once more!
Ronan.

The battery pack is under the floor of the car and doesn't affect the space available in the boot. I've found the boot space to be quite decent, my previous car was a 05 Mondeo which had a very big boot but I haven't found the Leaf lacking, not that I'd be carrying a lot.

Roen

Cheers Benny, I had a Mondeo years ago and the boot was great in it. The Leaf must be deceptively large as the pictures don't make it look that cavernous.

The boot in the Leaf is fine for me but we do have the Kia Pro Ceed tractor diesel estate which is a useful bit extra. Only you can say if it's big enough for you.

Leaf range for me this time of year is about 120 Kms driving 100-110 Kph by this time I would need to be plugged in. In winter with cold, wet roads and strong head winds and a colder battery knock 10 Kms off of this. I don't drive easy and drive faster than the prius and harder, it's not just about how fast you drive but how aggressive. All I care about is having enough leccy to get home from work and a 10 min fast charge does me fine at Naas or 30 mins from newlands cross because I get to the Newlands cross charger with about 45% it charges slower to 80% from 45% , at Naas I get there with 20-30% and it charges faster from a lower state of charge so 10 mins to 50% Is all I need, plenty for 40-50 Kms.

Charge time to 80% in warm weather from a fast charger is about 30 mins but in reality you won't be getting to a charge point with 0% charge but from 20% it can take 30-40 mins to get to 80% in cooler weather depending on the temp of the battery.

If you were thinking of buying new then I would wait until the 2016 model year leaf is available because although unofficially announced from Nissan there is growing rumours that a larger battery will be available 30 Kwh V 24 but this may sound small but it's enough for instance to get me home without having to charge at all.

The GM Bolt is rumoured to be available in 2017, perhaps Q4 2017 by then the Leaf won't be too far behind, Leaf II is supposed to be out in late 2017 but might come earlier depending on competition. The Bolt is, according to GM supposed to have 200 miles range, but we will have to wait until the EPA review it to know for sure.

It's possible Opel Ireland won't import the Bolt like Kia Ireland would not import the Soul EV because they decided they'd make the decision on Irish people's behalf they we didn't want it when it was more down to them not wanting to invest the money in retooling, retraining and the cost to convert the workshop. It costs Nissan dealers 150,000 To become a leaf seller. So I would most likely say Kia decided they did not want to invest the money.

The Tesla Model 3 will be available 2018 with 250 miles according to Tesla, this is the affordable Tesla EV according to Tesla.

At the very least I would wait until Nissan announce the updated battery for 2016 model year if you're to buy new. But just 2 years later will see a big change in EV range. If the current Leaf will work for you and you can live with charging on longer trips then by all means buy now.

The Renault Zoe is also a good alternative with it's brilliant on board charger 2 Kw-44 Kw, it can charge from all standard street chargers in about 1 hr 30 mins for a full charge or 1 hr to 80% but this is from empty.

The Leaf can charge in 4 hrs from the standard street chargers to 8 hrs depending on the charger, 3.3 Kw or 6.6 Kw and it's up to you to decide which car you prefer and if the charger in Zoe would be useful to you or whether you see yourself using the fast chargers more often,.

The standard street chargers are often blocked by petrol/diesel cars and it's up to Co. Councils to enforce clamping and fines etc but this is very slow to come to most places.

From a charging perspective the Zoe is top dog and means if you can find a standard street charger it will mean it's most likely charged when you get back to it and you then don't then have to go look for a fast charger same with the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf, the Leaf dealers are trying to convince people they don't need it because they want people to order what's in stock, the 3.3 kw is the is the most ordered but the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf has meant on several occasions I did not have to look for a fast charger.

Regarding the solar panel , useless and incredibly over priced.

Padraig Mor

Don't think these were answered:

Is the SEI grant still available? Their site isn't that useful. Yes.

Can the grant be used on top of the Nissan scrappage deal? Yes, I'm doing it.

Roen

Thanks lads,

Really appreciate it.

In terms of holding back my worries are.
1. Nissan discontinuing their scrappage scheme, and
2. The SEAI grant expiring in Dec (or running out of cash before the term is up).

Either of those happening would make me pause for thought. Both together would put the car out of my reach financially.
As much as I'd like to wait for the newer tech and it as much sense as it makes I think it may have to be sooner rather than later.
Plus I have a pain in my face from looking at the car I have. It can do you well to get something shiny every now and then.

Thanks Mad_Lad and Padraig Mor.
Ronan.

Roen

Roen wrote: »

Thanks lads,

Really appreciate it.

In terms of holding back my worries are.
1. Nissan discontinuing their scrappage scheme, and
2. The SEAI grant expiring in Dec (or running out of cash before the term is up).

Either of those happening would make me pause for thought. Both together would put the car out of my reach financially.
As much as I'd like to wait for the newer tech and it as much sense as it makes I think it may have to be sooner rather than later.
Plus I have a pain in my face from looking at the car I have. It can do you well to get something shiny every now and then.

Thanks Mad_Lad and Padraig Mor.
Ronan.

There is always a risk the grant and VRT reduction would be scrapped but I doubt it, but I do think Government subsidies are helping to keep EV prices inflated in the first place.

If the current EV range suits you then go for it of you don't do really long trips daily the fast chargers would make up for this other than that i would really wait for the 2016 model "if" indeed the battery is updated.

My commute is about 135 Kms if I charge at Naas or 140 if I charge at Newlands.

Just out of interest I drove much slower today 90-100 Kph max and got up with 58 % battery compared to usually about 45-50 %, used 8.662 Kwh to do 40.5 miles says I've 12.6 remaining and in theory could make it home but that was with a good wind in my tail, But I've no problem charging in Naas for 10 mins at 8.25 when I get there in the morning on the way home because it's usually quiet there at that time.

I would say a lot of people passing me on the M7/N7 were saying "those bloody EV drivers" but I wasn't in a rush anyway and had plenty of time.

At that rate I could have got about 140-150 Kms but What's the point in bring the battery to a really low charge ? so best to top up when you get the chance. It's better for the battery too.

Padraig Mor

Roen wrote: »

Thanks lads,

Really appreciate it.

In terms of holding back my worries are.
1. Nissan discontinuing their scrappage scheme, and
2. The SEAI grant expiring in Dec (or running out of cash before the term is up).

Nissan's scrappage scheme is due to finish at the end of July. However, I believe that this is the latest in several extensions of the scheme. Wouldn't surprise me if it did finish up soon though - has to at some stage, and Nissan's range has taken a bit of a step up recently so may not need the extra boost in sales. Bear in mind too that, due to their high finance APR, and rip off / cartel €1000 delivery charge, it's really a €2500 - €3000 scrappage scheme (and it's not even actually a scrappage scheme).

Haven't heard anything about the SEAI grant expiring. I had heard that ESB were nearing their limit of free charge point installs for the first 2000 customers but I'm told on good authority that there's actually only been about 800 gone in.

Roen

The SEAI grant is due to expire on the 31st Dec this year according to their site. Or if the money runs out first.
The thousand euro charge is fairly ridiculous alright. Even premium brands don't charge that.

Am I imagining things or is the PCP route sensible in this case? If the tech refreshes every few years you're already on the ladder so to speak. I realise just being plain old rich would be best but I can afford the payments on the SVE with a minimal deposit so the idea has wormed it's way in.

Anyway. Test drive booked this week.
Thanks Padraig.

Roen

Roen wrote: »

The SEAI grant is due to expire on the 31st Dec this year according to their site. Or if the money runs out first.
The thousand euro charge is fairly ridiculous alright. Even premium brands don't charge that.

Am I imagining things or is the PCP route sensible in this case? If the tech refreshes every few years you're already on the ladder so to speak. I realise just being plain old rich would be best but I can afford the payments on the SVE with a minimal deposit so the idea has wormed it's way in.

Anyway. Test drive booked this week.
Thanks Padraig.

PCP is good if you want to change in 2-3 years and your monthly repayments can be much lower than bank loan or normal finance and this is with minimal upfront payment.

Just as long as you're aware of the balloon at the end if you decide to keep it.

This is how I'm paying for my Leaf.

Roen

Cheers,

I suppose that's part of the Nissan strategy, you'll be way more inclined into going for a new EV versus a new ICE as the battery tech will have advanced in the three year plan.

nokia69

the thing I wonder about the Leaf is will it be possible to buy a new battery for an old Leaf, I don't mean a replacement battery, which is possible now if something goes wrong for some reason

I mean will Nissan sell a higher capacity pack to someone with a ten year old Leaf, Tesla are doing this with the roadster latter this year and most people assume they will do the same with the model S at some point

Roen

Good point, having backward compatible batteries would be a nice feature.

Not sure how they'd implement it or if you'd need new charging tech in the car as well.

Could be a gap for after market companies to come in and offer them once your warranty was up. Given the research cost behind batteries it might be unlikely. But who says you have to research your own batteries, just find a way to make them cheaper than the next guy...

Padraig Mor

Roen wrote: »

Am I imagining things or is the PCP route sensible in this case? .

Depends really. The 7.9% APR rate is higher than the vast majority of other brands, significantly so in many cases. I wouldn't be doing it unless you got the €4000 scrappage. At the end of the 3 years, it's crystal ball time - if your car is 'worth' sufficient over the GFV, you can get a new car by continuing the same payments and putting no extra money down. However, if it doesn't hold its value, you could be stuck with forking out a big lump of cash if you want to get into a new one.

njburke

If it works for your commute/needs , buy it now otherwise wait till the specification on range or charge cycle comes up to meet your needs.

Start saving on fuel or enjoying the car sooner rather than later.
If the grants go they'll get more expensive new or second hand.
Mrs took delivery of a leaf yesterday, it's early days but it looks like we'll be happy with our choice.

I have a 13 year old 2l diesel estate, it's automatic and nice car to drive. it's a good compliment to the leaf.

Roen

Well I had the test drive. So far so good. Now to count the pennies....

Roen

Roen wrote: »

Well I had the test drive. So far so good. Now to count the pennies....

What did you think ?

Roen

Deleted User wrote: »

What did you think ?

Well I was never going to get that excited. Cars don't do that to me. Well, unless they cost a hell of a lot of cash.
I had driven an electric Fluence way back when and also been in a Leaf before so I knew what to expect.

It'll just go down to a financial decision to be honest. It'll be the SVE for me if the money works out. Got to talk to the financial guy tomorrow.

Roen

Quick couple of questions lads.

I thought the 17" alloys are standard on the SVE, but just checking the Nissan site it looks like they are an option now. Can anyone confirm?

Also any 'must have' accessories?

peposhi

Roen wrote: »

Quick couple of questions lads.

I thought the 17" alloys are standard on the SVE, but just checking the Nissan site it looks like they are an option now. Can anyone confirm?

Also any 'must have' accessories?

Get yourself a boot liner - extremely helpful. I would go for wind deflectors too. Most of the dealers would give you mudflaps and floor mats FOC.

What makes you want the 17"? You would have higher resistance due to the wider tyres needed. Small difference, but it's there. Well, I guess it is a personal things as on one of my previous ICE cars I put 15"s where 13" was the standard

Roen

peposhi wrote: »

Get yourself a boot liner - extremely helpful. I would go for wind deflectors too. Most of the dealers would give you mudflaps and floor mats FOC.

What makes you want the 17"? You would have higher resistance due to the wider tyres needed. Small difference, but it's there. Well, I guess it is a personal things as on one of my previous ICE cars I put 15"s where 13" was the standard

Cheers Peposhi,

No real reason I suppose. Apologies if I offend anyone but I believe that the Leaf is one of the ugliest cars in production. I imagine the 17s were an attempt to make it less so.
As I said earlier I'm not really a car head but I do appreciate nice lines.
So basically the 17s reduce range through higher fiction?
I had the wind deflectors in mind from other fora I was reading.

On the subject of options does anyone know how the 6.6kw charger is priced? I can't see it on the Nissan site.
Thanks again,
Ronan.

peposhi

Roen wrote: »

Cheers Peposhi,

No real reason I suppose. Apologies if I offend anyone but I believe that the Leaf is one of the ugliest cars in production. I imagine the 17s were an attempt to make it less so.
As I said earlier I'm not really a car head but I do appreciate nice lines.
So basically the 17s reduce range through higher fiction?
I had the wind deflectors in mind from other fora I was reading.

On the subject of options does anyone know how the 6.6kw charger is priced? I can't see it on the Nissan site.
Thanks again,
Ronan.

LOL... Well, think of it as quiet, reliable work horse that cost you only a few quid to feed.
I did not buy it for the looks myself. If I wanted the looks, I would have kept the last ICE I had. You get accustomed to it and eventually you'd find it beautiful... one day
The example I gave you with me changing the wheels on an old (very old now, but loved forever for the looks) ICE brought the petrol! fuel consumption from less than 8l/100km to more than 9l/100km (easy 10 in the winter). Of course the Michelin energy saver tyres the Leaf comes with are fantastic and will reduce the tyre size change effect to minimum, but still.
At the end of the day, if range is not an issue for you, get them as the bigger wheel will defo give you a better look

The 6.6kw charge is something I would buy if I was in a process of buying now. It costs €900, but in my opinion is well worth as it will give you a full charge from zero in 4 hours only. So if you go for shopping or to the cinema you would not necessarily look for a FCP. You'd just plug the car on any SCP and have it ready to go for you in a space of 1-3 hours without stressing out. I can not say I regret for not choosing the option, but it would have been a good addition to give peace of mind

Benny_Cake

I decided that I'd either get a granny charger or fork out for the 6.6kw charger. I went with the 6.6, it means that if you plug into a SCP you get a meaningful charge in half the time. Given the amount of standard chargers we have in Ireland now, that's not such a bad deal.

I used the 22Kw charger at the Town Hall in Carlow Town yesterday while going about my business, plugged in with 35% about 45-50 mins later it was at 60% so the 6.6 is very useful imo, and I'm glad I spend the little extra.

The Zoe would have been charged fully. But I'm still glad I went for the 6.6 Kw. The Town Hall charge point is something I intend to use a lot more and parking is free while charging in Carlow, I called the County council yesterday !

I would not need the granny cable because if going on a really long trip we'll take the diesel especially to keep miles off the leaf, the only place I would think you might need it would be to plug into a B&B.

If you got the Renault Zoe then you know it will be charged in about 1 hr little more for a full charge from all standard street charge points. I would love to see 22Kw AC charging in future electrics but I have serious doubts.

Roen

Hopefully this is coming toward the end of all the questions.

Previously I was beyond doubt that I wanted the SVE. However I am not mad about black interiors. I'd much prefer the light grey interior available on the SV and add in the cold pack and a couple of bits.


I test drove the SV and sat in the SVE for a nose. Is it my imagination or were the leather seats firmer than the SV suede ones?

How much of a difference to day to day utility do the Intelligent Key, 360 view and LEDs make?

I actually don't listen to music at all but stick the radio on for longer commutes so the fancy stereo isn't of any use to me.

Cheers,
Ronan.

mr.dunkey

The SVE should have 17s as standard, but I also noticed that the Nissan site says optional, I don't know of a SVE without them?
Car companies always say scrappage deals are going to expire to push sales, and oh wait there extended.
Is the next LEAF going to have better range, yes, but don't let this stop you know form driving an EV and saving money, EVs are a bit of technology and going to be improved all the time, like mobile phones, there will always be a better one out in a few years,
If you don't want to spend 25-27 k on a New LEAF get a pre owned Gen 1.5 save 4-7 K if you don't want the risk

I completely agree, there's nothing wrong with the 132+ leafs though watch out some of the 132 leafs will still be the Gen I leaf. You may still be able to lease a 2 year old Leaf, cheap per month with minimum up front and 3 years to decide if you then want to buy it or not, if you do small mileage it can work out really cheap !

The Current Gen Leaf is also available with the brighter interior, but most likely be a special order.

Here's a link to spot the differences in the Mk I = 1.5 Leaf.

Glad I remembered the last time to bookmark the difference betweent he Gen I + 1.5, saves a lot of time !!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95910843#post95910843

Padraig Mor

Roen wrote: »

Previously I was beyond doubt that I wanted the SVE. However I am not mad about black interiors. I'd much prefer the light grey interior available on the SV and add in the cold pack and a couple of bits.

Don't think I've seen any Mark 1.5s without the dark interior.

How much of a difference to day to day utility do the Intelligent Key, 360 view and LEDs make.

SV has the intelligent key, despite the Nissan site. 360 should be handy, but I've seen several complaints of the cameras being easily obscured by dirt. LEDs are pretty poor by most accounts.