Gone stale

hathcock

This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.

Dawggone

hathcock wrote: »

This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.

I had one springer in forty years of shooting that could hunt heavy cover all day long. Dawn till dusk. Had to feed him a half kilo of suet per day to keep him from turning into a skeleton...
I've given up on ESS now as there is no more than two hours hunting in them.

dazed+confused

I had a springer that would hunt all day, say 8 hours of rough shooting or 5 drives on a driven shoot. He was 25kg though, rare you see a springer of that build now. Any spring I see now is a much lighter build than the dog we had and they definitely seem to tire quicker.

Dawggone

dazed+confused wrote: »

I had a springer that would hunt all day, say 8 hours of rough shooting or 5 drives on a driven shoot. He was 25kg though, rare you see a springer of that build now. Any spring I see now is a much lighter build than the dog we had and they definitely seem to tire quicker.

Agreed on size. My good dog was a monster. As big as a setter with paws like a lion.

Tommyaya4

uncles 6 year old bitch will hunt all day 6 hours plus she is very small but has always had some engine in her.she dont look all busy all the time but she has some nose on her and if she hits a ditch then expect a bird. have never seen her miss a retrieve i think she hunts smart if that makes any sence
Tommy

Dawggone

Tommyaya4 wrote: »

uncles 6 year old bitch will hunt all day 6 hours plus she is very small but has always had some engine in her.she dont look all busy all the time but she has some nose on her and if she hits a ditch then expect a bird. have never seen her miss a retrieve i think she hunts smart if that makes any sence
Tommy

Doesn't stay in cover all the time?
To me, a springer should have to be commanded to leave cover.

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

This forum seems to be gone a little stale vis a vis dogs,so at the risk of incurring the wrath of of the devil,here goes my question, how long should one expect a springer that hunts cover to last at work in a typical day?I've heard it claimed that some dogs can keep hunting (in heavy cover)all day,it's not that I don't believe these claims,but never having witnessed same I'm yet to be convinced.Please be civil in your response.

I was thinking the same thing lads are looking at post's but for some reason not giving there view on it. ?

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

Doesn't stay in cover all the time?
To me, a springer should have to be commanded to leave cover.

Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?

deeksofdoom

I have a springer bitch that will hunt hard all day long, heavy cover the lot.

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?

To me...if a springer isn't doing what it's bred for, then it's not fit for purpose.

Cavalier King spaniels are supposedly hunting dogs also...:)

I don't have these lines anymore. Too much shyte out there that handlers make excuses for..

I've a line of setters now that do what springers are supposed to do.
I truly lament the demise of the ESS.

Dawggone

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I have a springer bitch that will hunt hard all day long, heavy cover the lot.

Lucky man.
What's the pedigree?

deeksofdoom

No papers, does have badgercourt looks very stylish bitch she's hitting 8 this year. Picture was taken a few years ago, thats me with the melted head.

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

Have u springers doing this':eek: staying in cover until Commanded to come out. ?

If a springer NOT doing cover for fun, why waste your time with muck??

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

To me...if a springer isn't doing what it's bred for, then it's not fit for purpose.

Cavalier King spaniels are supposedly hunting dogs also...:)

I don't have these lines anymore. Too much shyte out there that handlers make excuses for..

I've a line of setters now that do what springers are supposed to do.
I truly lament the demise of the ESS.

I agree the Future of the real springer is in grave danger' but if lads give up on trying to breed back some of true springer blood into what we have now' then they will just become the dog of fireside stories...

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

I agree the Future of the real springer is in grave danger' but if lads give up on trying to breed back some of true springer blood into what we have now' then they will just become the dog of fireside stories...

For me the ESS is phucked with the last 20 years. End of.
The trials Phucked them...
They are beyond redemption.

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

For me the ESS is phucked with the last 20 years. End of.
The trials Phucked them...
They are beyond redemption.

I do agree that Trialing has made the springer the way it is. But there are still some fine unspoiled dogs out there and if lads only breed from a good line of springers then there is still hope.

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

I do agree that Trialing has made the springer the way it is. But there are still some fine unspoiled dogs out there and if lads only breed from a good line of springers then there is still hope.

Yes, of course there may be some residuals. Genetics will ensure that its possible.
However if the majority of the supposed 'best' genetics of the breed are akin to Cavalier King Charles, then I would argue that the breed is well and truly phucked.


I now have setters that will kick shyte out of the 'best' ESS lines.


Why bother?

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

Yes, of course there may be some residuals. Genetics will ensure that its possible.
However if the majority of the supposed 'best' genetics of the breed are akin to Cavalier King Charles, then I would argue that the breed is well and truly phucked.


I now have setters that will kick shyte out of the 'best' ESS lines.


Why bother?

Are they English or Irish ?

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

Are they English or Irish ?

Danish, American, Norwegian.

Have been known to win an Irish Championship...

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

Danish, American, Norwegian.

Have been known to win an Irish Championship...

What breed are they ?

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

What breed are they ?

English setters.

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

English setters.

Have u any footage of them in the heavy stuff . I'm sure you know it has been said they were crossed into out early old style springers it's there to be seen today in the trialing dogs ?

Dawggone

snipe49 wrote: »

Have u any footage of them in the heavy stuff . I'm sure you know it has been said they were crossed into out early old style springers it's there to be seen today in the trialing dogs ?

Steady on there Snipe!

It's absolutely nothing to do with springers.
It's to do with drive...desire...ambition...

If you are lucky enough to own a dog with 'insane' drive to find birds...then you will realise that cover is not even "seen" by such animals...

snipe49

Dawggone wrote: »

Steady on there Snipe!

It's absolutely nothing to do with springers.
It's to do with drive...desire...ambition...

If you are lucky enough to own a dog with 'insane' drive to find birds...then you will realise that cover is not even "seen" by such animals...

Well have u any video of your setters in the heavy cover your making very strong claims there ?

hathcock

deeksofdoom wrote: »

No papers, does have badgercourt looks very stylish bitch she's hitting 8 this year. Picture was taken a few years ago, thats me with the melted head.

Must be hard to shoot straight with a crooked head like that.....

Kiltris

Dawggone wrote: »

Lucky man.
What's the pedigree?

This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

Thats just my two cents.

snipe49

Kiltris wrote: »

This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

Thats just my two cents.

Very well put ...

allan450

snipe49 wrote: »

Very well put ...

Their is far to much to consider on this subject.The dogs diet first and foremost.How thick is the cover certain parts of the country compared to others.what I call cover and what an other man calls cover can be the total opposite.if you hunt a dog for a the likes of 6/7 hours a day after 2/3 week's they lose the flashy style and then plod.while still doing the job it's not nice to watch.4/5 hours is enough or rotate at heel each dogs at that time so their bursting to get going.Their are some serious dogs out their if lads know where to look.The amount of **** the dog world seems to attract is serious so take everything with a pinch of salt until you see it yourself or learn the hard way......

Kiltris

allan450 wrote: »

Their is far to much to consider on this subject.The dogs diet first and foremost.How thick is the cover certain parts of the country compared to others.what I call cover and what an other man calls cover can be the total opposite.if you hunt a dog for a the likes of 6/7 hours a day after 2/3 week's they lose the flashy style and then plod.while still doing the job it's not nice to watch.4/5 hours is enough or rotate at heel each dogs at that time so their bursting to get going.Their are some serious dogs out their if lads know where to look.The amount of **** the dog world seems to attract is serious so take everything with a pinch of salt until you see it yourself or learn the hard way......

I agree 100%. I know lads that lock dogs up from the end of one season til the start of the next and then spend the first month of the season moaning and giving out like sh*te to the dog because they are simply too unfit to keep hunting, the same lads that buy clear bags of "dog food" in the local petrol station for €9 and expect it to deliver enough energy to an unfit dog to keep it hunting all day, but it's all the dogs fault, never the owner.

Some guys expectations for the effort they put into their dogs are completely unrealistic. It's never as simple or straight forward as some make it out to be. The other side of the coin is that a guy opens up Donedeal and looks at a pup with a recognisable name in his breeding, a name he heard someone talk about before, shor this pup has to turn out good, even though that name is 3 generations back, €300 well spent!! No viewing of either sire or dam working cover but he has a "cracking looking pup" now. Spends his first season frustrated and pissed off at the dog because the dog wouldn't hunt a mouse out of a bag, when it's actually himself & the breeder he should be pissed off with. In my opinion it's the whole buying process that is messed up.

I have only ever bred to get a pup for myself, never for financial gain, anything I'd ask for a pup would be small and I wouldn't move pups on til they are around 16wks old, so I can make an educated decision about each pups confidence, energy levels etc. But everyone is different!

ESB Spaniel

My own bitch Oddie will hunt all day long never had to go home over her been tired.... Now I can't say she will do it for defo this season after the pups but she seems to be the same bitch she was. When she is in heat she can test my patience but will hunt away.

To me its down to keeping them conditioned in the summer also. No point locking a Springer up all summer(taking her/him for a walk to the park), swimming, a bit of cover and most of all what drives her on during the summer is rabbits. I know my bitch is not happy being in the pin and going up the road on a lead. Just my 2 cents.

I know lads that expect springers to run cover all day long the 1st of November and the Springer wouldnt be doing nothing from Feb - Nov.... And the dog is branded useless or a 4 hour dog. It's a lot to do with what way you have been conditioning them from a pup and of course their diet in my opinion.

ferrete

Kiltris wrote: »

This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

Thats just my two cents.

To be honest I think your exaggerating a bit as I have a springer from field trail lines an it unreal, dose goose duck phesant woodcock etc nd retrieves foxes also, its just about what your dog's used to and how fit it is, mine usually lasts 5 hours but it depends on the cover it's hunting.
before you day anything I have compared it to other springers and 90% of them I would even consider

Kiltris

ferrete wrote: »

To be honest I think your exaggerating a bit as I have a springer from field trail lines an it unreal, dose goose duck phesant woodcock etc nd retrieves foxes also, its just about what your dog's used to and how fit it is, mine usually lasts 5 hours but it depends on the cover it's hunting.
before you day anything I have compared it to other springers and 90% of them I would even consider

Exaggerating what point exactly? I never said that all dogs with papers didn't have a good engine, my point is that people started to over look good honest dogs beacause of an obsession with papers.

Congrats on your own dog, I bet you wouldn't sell it for any money.

ferrete

Kiltris wrote: »

Exaggerating what point exactly? I never said that all dogs with papers didn't have a good engine, my point is that people started to over look good honest dogs beacause of an obsession with papers.

Congrats on your own dog, I bet you wouldn't sell it for any money.

You was ment in general. That dogs with field trail breeding are site. It's the case with a lot but then dogs with no paperwork can be **** too. Trail dogs generally are smaller and only ever worked short and fast wer a field dog is worked steady all day. I find its just down to diet what quail food they get and exercise and 90% is to the type of cover they hunt, in some areas I hunt no springer would last all day and I wouldnt make it if you respect your dog.

An yes your right I would not sell my dog for any price and I was offered silly money a few times for it. But two me it's prices less and il hopefully never buy another spring il just breed her and stick to her line. Only thing I'd be worried about would be her sire being up to scratch. Il probably breed her next yeare or that after and people were looking to book pups already but all I want is one for me, il not be breeding to sell as it's not fair on the dog etc and I don't agree with breeding to make money.

Kiltris

ferrete wrote: »

You was ment in general. That dogs with field trail breeding are site. It's the case with a lot but then dogs with no paperwork can be **** too. Trail dogs generally are smaller and only ever worked short and fast wer a field dog is worked steady all day. I find its just down to diet what quail food they get and exercise and 90% is to the type of cover they hunt, in some areas I hunt no springer would last all day and I wouldnt make it if you respect your dog.

An yes your right I would not sell my dog for any price and I was offered silly money a few times for it. But two me it's prices less and il hopefully never buy another spring il just breed her and stick to her line. Only thing I'd be worried about would be her sire being up to scratch. Il probably breed her next yeare or that after and people were looking to book pups already but all I want is one for me, il not be breeding to sell as it's not fair on the dog etc and I don't agree with breeding to make money.

But I never said that dogs with field trail breeding were sh*te! Fair play, It's good to see someone else who'e not in it for the money. Unfortunately there are alot of lads out there that breed for the money, regardless of the sire & dams capabitities. I was once in the company of a lad that was selling pups when his phone rang, and to listen to him blowing about the 2 dogs you would think you couldn't fail with one of these pups. Needless to say that everything he was saying was total bullsh*t!

I know several lads in my locality too that are shooting all there lives and have never kept a line of dogs. I think it's because their just not doggy men, they don't know what to look for nor do they no the value of keeping a good line and watching a dog go from strenght to strenght over there first 3 seasons. Monetary gain is much more important.

I'll give you one example, one guy bought a lovely springer dog about 3 months ago, a trained dog. To buy this dog he sold the bitch he had hunted all last season. This was a bitch that had a great nose, well able for cover & in my opinion was one of the best retrievers I have seen. He had no reason to sell her only I'd say he was bored of her, completely ridiculous. Then, I heard last week he has sold the trained springer dog, because he got €100 more for him than he paid. That cycle will go on & on & on.... And he's not alone here, I've come across loads that do the same. I just don't understand how any true shooter/doggy man could keep moving dogs like this.

ferrete

Kiltris wrote: »

But I never said that dogs with field trail breeding were sh*te! Fair play, It's good to see someone else who'e not in it for the money. Unfortunately there are alot of lads out there that breed for the money, regardless of the sire & dams capabitities. I was once in the company of a lad that was selling pups when his phone rang, and to listen to him blowing about the 2 dogs you would think you couldn't fail with one of these pups. Needless to say that everything he was saying was total bullsh*t!

I know several lads in my locality too that are shooting all there lives and have never kept a line of dogs. I think it's because their just not doggy men, they don't know what to look for nor do they no the value of keeping a good line and watching a dog go from strenght to strenght over there first 3 seasons. Monetary gain is much more important.

I'll give you one example, one guy bought a lovely springer dog about 3 months ago, a trained dog. To buy this dog he sold the bitch he had hunted all last season. This was a bitch that had a great nose, well able for cover & in my opinion was one of the best retrievers I have seen. He had no reason to sell her only I'd say he was bored of her, completely ridiculous. Then, I heard last week he has sold the trained springer dog, because he got €100 more for him than he paid. That cycle will go on & on & on.... And he's not alone here, I've come across loads that do the same. I just don't understand how any true shooter/doggy man could keep moving dogs like this.

But to sell for an extra 100 doesn't make sense as your our fuel, feeding and cleaning it wouldn't pay to sell for 100 euro

snipe49

allan450 wrote: »

Their is far to much to consider on this subject.The dogs diet first and foremost.How thick is the cover certain parts of the country compared to others.what I call cover and what an other man calls cover can be the total opposite.if you hunt a dog for a the likes of 6/7 hours a day after 2/3 week's they lose the flashy style and then plod.while still doing the job it's not nice to watch.4/5 hours is enough or rotate at heel each dogs at that time so their bursting to get going.Their are some serious dogs out their if lads know where to look.The amount of **** the dog world seems to attract is serious so take everything with a pinch of salt until you see it yourself or learn the hard way......

yes Allan and if lads only breed from good honest dogs there's a chance they'll have good pups. But a lot of this bad dog syndrome is down to the handlers not know how to bring a pup on and some great dogs are lost.

Kiltris

ferrete wrote: »

But to sell for an extra 100 doesn't make sense as your our fuel, feeding and cleaning it wouldn't pay to sell for 100 euro

I KNOW!!!!!

Beggers belief to be honest, and this happens continously! Can you imagine if you spent 30 or 40 years shooting & never had your own line, and I mean never! Often breeds a good bitch and just sells off all the pups.

Anyway, thats all a bit off topic. I often wondered are there alot more working dogs in the country now than say 15-20yrs ago? Are lads keeping more dogs now?

snipe49

Kiltris wrote: »

I KNOW!!!!!

Beggers belief to be honest, and this happens continously! Can you imagine if you spent 30 or 40 years shooting & never had your own line, and I mean never! Often breeds a good bitch and just sells off all the pups.

Anyway, thats all a bit off topic. I often wondered are there alot more working dogs in the country now than say 15-20yrs ago? Are lads keeping more dogs now?

As for more dog around then back in the day. when i started shooting most lads only had one good dog a few had two but they would have to be good or it was by by. The springer back then was a different dog to most of what about today they were a strong big but fit dog with no need for fancy feed most got table scraps and a bone from the butcher every now and then. They were never sick full of drive most of them had to much' a far cry from to days dog's. I'll tell ye about my first springer i was 16 had a single barrel and saved the 80 pounds for the dog. I got jeff a liver and white dog pup 12 weeks old ikc reg that was a lot of money back then 3 weeks wages
i trained him on the whistle but he was a hard dog to hold back so what i did was when i was going out for a day's shooting yes a Days shooting i would let him pull me all the way on my bike 4 miles we would hunt hard all day non stop All rough going 'to give him a hand on the way back i would peddle up the big hill. Now this dog would do this every day And most springers around me that time were the same.

Tommyaya4

Dawggone wrote: »

Doesn't stay in cover all the time?
To me, a springer should have to be commanded to leave cover.

Seen plenty of sh1t put in a ditch at one end and don't come out till the other 3 ditches later their only fit for the trailer much prefer a dog that's hunting the ditch rather then staying in cover just because you trained them to stay in

Tommyaya4

Kiltris wrote: »

This isn't a dig or anything, but I think this is what happened to springers. People became obsessed with lines, pedigrees & papers.

I have 3 springers here, no papers, I never had a dog with papers but I know the breeding of these dogs, we (me, father & uncles) have kept these lines for years. I have one big strong bitch that is probably the best we've ever had, she hunts all day, any cover, never fails. I've put her up against dogs that lads have paid €1200 for & she puts them to shame.

I will get tired a lot sooner than she will, and she will be bouncing again the day after to do the same. The dog is a machine, duck, pheasant, woodcock, snipe.. She knows her job. I bred her to my springer dog, he's a nut job in cover, but he gets busted up, she comes out unmarked.
I kept back one pup for myself, absolutely cracking pup, sold 3 to local lads & advertised the rest, I said on the add that I would show anyone the dog and bitch working but I couldn't shift them, I watched pups with "papers" being sold left, right & centre & I ended up training these and sending them to wales. Their now working drug dogs.

My point is these 'all day' dogs are out there but some are simply just not interested because of lines, pedigrees & papers.

Thats just my two cents.

We'll said lad

hathcock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORAzQ0su1Kw This is the kind of pup I look for.

Kiltris

hathcock wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORAzQ0su1Kw This is the kind of pup I look for.

Is that your own bitch? A nice, confident, eager to please dog. She has smarts & isn't looking up at your face for directions. A natural instinct to hunt. You can't teach that.

hathcock

Kiltris wrote: »

Is that your own bitch? A nice, confident, eager to please dog. She has smarts & isn't looking up at your face for directions. A natural instinct to hunt. You can't teach that.

Ya,she's my own,I have her brother too,he's a lot more advanced.

Kiltris

Well keep up the good work. Can't watching them come along!

Dare I ask does she have papers?

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORAzQ0su1Kw This is the kind of pup I look for.

Your easy please !

hathcock

Kiltris wrote: »

Well keep up the good work. Can't watching them come along!

Dare I ask does she have papers?

yes she's reg IKC

hathcock

snipe49 wrote: »

Your easy please !

is that an attempt at irony or sarcasm?

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

is that an attempt at irony or sarcasm?

She's nice best of luck with her pal.I have a pup here 7 months old as good as i had for a long time great drive i'll make a video.

hathcock

snipe49 wrote: »

She's nice best of luck with her pal.I have a pup here 7 months old as good as i had for a long time great drive i'll make a video.

Would like to see your video,good luck with your pup.

snipe49

hathcock wrote: »

Would like to see your video,good luck with your pup.

I'll make one this week. I have nothing done with her yet just a few trips to my rabbit ground to see what she's made off' i like what i seen so i'll train her now.

allan450

my 2 at 5 months nothing done with as such.but their doing enough for their age https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elR7hwgnAsE&feature=youtu.be