Dublin to London and back in an i3 [Journey Log]

GreyDad

Deleted User wrote: »

The I3 as built from the ground up to be an EV unlike the E-Golf and Leaf, which are more ICE conversions. The Leaf was designed this way in 2010 to minimise production costs.

Not quite true - the Leaf *is* a ground-up EV design, it's not built on any pre-existing chassis and certainly isn't a conversion from an existing model, unlike the e-Up, e-Golf etc..

It does use common components from the rest of the Nissan range to keep production costs down, unlike the i3 which basically invented everything from scratch, hence the price.

caster

Deleted User wrote: »

You could also go for the much cheaper Leaf or Zoe, they're not bad cars and the Leaf is good to drive and well built, not as much fun as the BMW, the I3 has about 70 more HP in a much lighter chassis.

The I3 as built from the ground up to be an EV unlike the E-Golf and Leaf, which are more ICE conversions. The Leaf was designed this way in 2010 to minimise production costs.

The Leaf is getting a larger battery hopefully in the Autumn 2015 it should have 20-30 Kms more range than the I3 for a lot cheaper but if the Power and build quality of the I3 suits you more then this is where you see the money better spent.

Cros13 says the I3 is getting a range upgrade in 2016 ? any links ? I haven't seen any reference to this.

I will probably give the Leaf a test drive too - a dealer only 10 mins from where I live. I am sure it would work better budget-wise but it'll be hard to live up to the i3 - I really wasn't expecting to be as impressed as I was with it.... such a great car to drive with a top quality interior, and there's all the toys

caster

caster wrote: »

I will probably give the Leaf a test drive too - a dealer only 10 mins from where I live. I am sure it would work better budget-wise but it'll be hard to live up to the i3 - I really wasn't expecting to be as impressed as I was with it.... such a great car to drive with a top quality interior, and there's all the toys

What really turned me off the I3 was the CCS charging standard, so go to the E-cars website, iuse the filter at the top of the charge point map and compare ChaDeMo fast chargers to CCS and see if this will impact you or not, igf it does then the Leaf would suit you better.

The Rex version of the I3 is disgracefully expensive all that extra tax doesn;t help.

If the I3 does get more range in 2016 then I would hold on, or wait for the Leaf which is hopefully going to get a range boost this Autumn.

GreyDad

It's the rear 'suicide doors' I really don't like - as a parent with kids I could never own a car with such an arrangement. I think they're a major safety concern.

That and the price

caster

Deleted User wrote: »

What really turned me off the I3 was the CCS charging standard, so go to the E-cars website, iuse the filter at the top of the charge point map and compare ChaDeMo fast chargers to CCS and see if this will impact you or not, igf it does then the Leaf would suit you better.

The Rex version of the I3 is disgracefully expensive all that extra tax doesn;t help.

If the I3 does get more range in 2016 then I would hold on, or wait for the Leaf which is hopefully going to get a range boost this Autumn.

Had a test drive of the Leaf today, very nice to drive. Cabin is a definite step down but of course the price is much much more affordable. Overall, I'm impressed - though the i3 is much nicer to drive IMO but you pay for that privilege.

The Leaf is very affordable for me and its almost certain that I would change in 3 yrs max ( to a Tesla or possibly a German alternative), so definitely considering the Leaf now as well. The SVE would be my choice if I went for it.

The price and the availability of rapid charging are the key things the Leaf has for me... and the Bose system in the SVE does no harm either I assume the 6Kw charger is well worth getting as an option ?

caster

Forgot to mention, the scrappage deal on offer is also a big plus. The max I'd get for my car, even privately, is not much over 3K

stesaurus

GreyDad wrote: »

It's the rear 'suicide doors' I really don't like - as a parent with kids I could never own a car with such an arrangement. I think they're a major safety concern.

That and the price

Huh???

Benny_Cake

GreyDad wrote: »

It's the rear 'suicide doors' I really don't like - as a parent with kids I could never own a car with such an arrangement. I think they're a major safety concern.

That and the price

I'm pretty sure that it's only possible to open the rear doors if the front doors are open, so there should be no safety concern.

The i3 is a beautiful car, but way too expensive for me. It is good to see a manufacturer like BMW putting the effort into producing a unique car, rather than just sticking a battery and electric motor in a random BMW and selling it in California (like Ford, Fiat etc).

BMW could have got 30 Kwh into the I3 chassis, there is a lot of wasted space. And they didn't get extra range over the Leaf/Zoe for all that extra and very expensive carbon fibre, it is more efficient though due to it being lighter but BMW could have done better.

They could have made a 200 mile range 3 or 5 series also but they're not going to until they start loosing money on ICE cars or until regulations dictate they change to electric via stricter emissions etc.

caster

caster wrote: »

Had a test drive of the Leaf today, very nice to drive. Cabin is a definite step down but of course the price is much much more affordable. Overall, I'm impressed - though the i3 is much nicer to drive IMO but you pay for that privilege.

The Leaf is very affordable for me and its almost certain that I would change in 3 yrs max ( to a Tesla or possibly a German alternative), so definitely considering the Leaf now as well. The SVE would be my choice if I went for it.

The price and the availability of rapid charging are the key things the Leaf has for me... and the Bose system in the SVE does no harm either I assume the 6Kw charger is well worth getting as an option ?

The leaf has a lower quality interior than even Nissan's current Gen cars which I find very good, with the exception of the Micra. However the Leaf is not a bad place to sit especially the SVE.

I am not happy with the Bose stereo, it lacks baas, despite having a "sub woofer" the bass is hugely disappointing. The basic stereo in our 08 Diesel Kia Ceed estate has much better Baas.

The Bose in the Leaf doesn't even get near sub base frequencies. My plan is to get rid of it and install a proper sub.

The sound is clear enough and if you turn up the baas pass the half way mark it destroys the mid range. But I can't compare it to the basic stereo in the Leaf but you can always upgrade the stereo and speakers in any car with much better quality components.

The 6.6 Kw charger without is the best option you'll have and the cold pack.

I guarantee, when the ESB start to charge for the public chargers a lot of people will regret not having much faster charging at home and people should be allowed to have 32 amp home charge points installed too because it makes the world of difference V charging at 3.3 Kw. But getting the 6.6 charger has saved me many times having to look for a fast charger and possibly having to queue and then charge. I just get in and drive off.

Nissan Ireland should not import the leaf with the 3.3 Kw because the most important thing about an ev is it's ability to charge as fast as possible and if the 3.3 Kw is not on the options list most people won't know about it anyway because people try save money but don't think about the value of that 6.6 Kw charger !

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

I guarantee, when the ESB start to charge for the public chargers a lot of people will regret not having much faster charging at home and people should be allowed to have 32 amp home charge points installed too because it makes the world of difference V charging at 3.3 Kw.

I assume this is a safety issue... Even the 16amp is a step up from the usual 13amp in homes. 32amp is quite the leap.

But getting the 6.6 charger has saved me many times having to look for a fast charger and possibly having to queue and then charge. I just get in and drive off.

Nissan Ireland should not import the leaf with the 3.3 Kw because the most important thing about an ev is it's ability to charge as fast as possible and if the 3.3 Kw is not on the options list most people won't know about it anyway because people try save money but don't think about the value of that 6.6 Kw charger !

You know, you and I disagree on this. There should absolutely be the option. I've had the car for months now, and never once have I wanted a faster charging speed. We have chargers at work and at home, so why on earth would I want the car to be another thousand euro more expensive on the shop floor, for something I never ever need or use? Everyone has a different set up. It suits you, it does not suit everyone.

I think making the cars as affordable as possible by making optional extras "optional", is absolutely vital, for gaining some kind of traction in Ireland. There have been only 600-700 electric cars sold in this country. ESB said they would install the first 2000 chargers for free 4 years ago, and they are not even half way there on that quota.

We're going to be left with a big white elephant of an EV system if everything is made more difficult and more expensive for buyers. It should be incentives and more options all the way.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

I assume this is a safety issue... Even the 16amp is a step up from the usual 13amp in homes. 32amp is quite the leap.

It can be an issue if you have the car charging during the day and someone fires up the 8-9 Kw shower and the electric oven , but it's not a safety issue once it's wired up properly back to the consumer unit.

pwurple wrote: »

You know, you and I disagree on this. There should absolutely be the option. I've had the car for months now, and never once have I wanted a faster charging speed. We have chargers at work and at home, so why on earth would I want the car to be another thousand euro more expensive on the shop floor, for something I never ever need or use? Everyone has a different set up. It suits you, it does not suit everyone.

You have work charging but very few people do or are ever likely to have work charging and the majority of people don't actually need it because they live close enough to work.

If the ESB have invested in 22 Kw AC charge points then it makes most sense to have cars that can make the best use of this infrastructure as possible to minimise the amount of people looking for the far fewer DC chargers. Nissan should have the 6.6 kw charger as standard anyway.

pwurple wrote: »

I think making the cars as affordable as possible by making optional extras "optional", is absolutely vital, for gaining some kind of traction in Ireland. There have been only 600-700 electric cars sold in this country. ESB said they would install the first 2000 chargers for free 4 years ago, and they are not even half way there on that quota.

I don't think the XE leaf with fast charge is that expensive when you consider the Equivalent diesel costs that or more, not having the 32 amp charger is just penny pinching. I can't see how it could possible cost 900 Euro's for an extra 3 kw.

I think Government subsidies around the world are helping to keep EV prices artificially inflated to begin with. Electric sales won't increase until petrol and diesel cars become too expensive to run and that's unlikely to happen until car makers themselves decide it's time to change due to stricter emissions regulations but currently there is no incentive to change why ? because they make too much money from ICE tech. Why do you think the Germans don't have a 200-300 mile range EV ? because they make huge profits from ICE sales not because the technology isn't there, as Tesla have proved, it certainly is.

Range could be better alight but I manage to do 134 Kms per day in the Leaf with a 5-10 min top up the majority of people do way less mileage than this per day yet they're convinced they need 500 miles range.

pwurple wrote: »

We're going to be left with a big white elephant of an EV system if everything is made more difficult and more expensive for buyers. It should be incentives and more options all the way.

Not at all, as I said the leaf is not more expensive than a lesser equipped Golf TDI for instance, A Clio Diesel costs about 21K, Kia Ceed, Hyundai I30 etc etc they're all in or around the same price as the leaf/zoe and the EV is much, much cheaper to run and the Golf is by far the greater choice which makes no sense to me, only thing I can think of is the VW badge is what people desire most and not running costs, people are willing to spend so much on tax on an ICE and on petrol/diesel all because they think they need 500 miles range, if petrol and diesel cars were a lot less affordable then you'd see a lot more ev sales.

Considering my mileage I would not buy a new ICE car due to the cost to fuel greatly adds to my running costs. Someone doing half my yearly mileage doesn't care about running costs and certainly not about an EV.

Even the SV leaf is pretty well equipped, add an automatic to an ICE car and you'r eup 1500, parking heater another 1500 if it were available the Leaf is not expensive compared to the equivalent diesel so my real point I guess is that electrics don't really have to become that more affordable at all because they're already there, more choice would be welcome I know the Leaf isn't everyone's cup of tea and the I3 and E-golf are a good bit more expensive but I feel this is deliberate.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Cros13 says the I3 is getting a range upgrade in 2016 ? any links ? I haven't seen any reference to this.

I got that directly from a former colleague now working for BMW's i development team. I've been told that the new modules they've developed are drop-in replacements for the current i3 battery modules but a commercial decision has yet to be made on an upgrade offering for existing owners. BMW USA is pushing for an upgrade program but BMW Group is not yet convinced.

GreyDad wrote: »

It's the rear 'suicide doors' I really don't like - as a parent with kids I could never own a car with such an arrangement. I think they're a major safety concern.

They are more safe, not less. The rear doors physically can't open without the front doors being opened.

caster wrote: »

I assume the 6Kw charger is well worth getting as an option ?

Depends, it's handy to be able to get useful amounts of charge from a standard charger. But is it €900 useful to you?

Deleted User wrote: »

Even the SV leaf is pretty well equipped, add an automatic to an ICE car and you'r eup 1500, parking heater another 1500 if it were available the Leaf is not expensive compared to the equivalent diesel so my real point I guess is that electrics don't really have to become that more affordable at all because they're already there, more choice would be welcome I know the Leaf isn't everyone's cup of tea and the I3 and E-golf are a good bit more expensive but I feel this is deliberate.

The Leaf SV with cold pack is what I point most people to. The XE is compromised to the point of damaging the Leaf brand. Rapid charging and a heat pump need to be standard features, the average buyer doesn't understand the impact these have on ownership.

The i3 does a different job to the Leaf. The Leaf is a sub-urban C-category runabout that's incredibly cheap to run, pleasant to drive and practical to live with. The i3 is highly specialised and probably the best city car ever made. It's a production beta test vehicle for every next generation technology, material and production method that BMW and it's suppliers have in the pipeline. It's designed to be exhilarating to drive and if I'm honest... be noticed on the road. And it's targeted at people who are willing to pay for that, mainly wealthy urbanites (or at least two incomes no kids). Several of the i3's in Ireland were bought as part of a matching set with an i8 for the weekends.

GreyDad

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that it's only possible to open the rear doors if the front doors are open, so there should be no safety concern.

No, that is the point, the rear passengers are effectively trapped in the back if there is a front-end shunt that disables the driver/front passenger or damages the front doors.

In a four-door car it should be possible for the rear passengers to get out unaided - with the i3 door arrangement they can't.

It's also a pain in car parks

cros13

GreyDad wrote: »

front-end shunt that disables the driver/front passenger or damages the front doors.

CFRP frame, doesn't bend, buckle or deform like a steel or aluminium frame. There are also a number of "initiators" throughout the design to which sacrifice themselves to cause components and frame section to move only in specific directions in a accident. For example there are two initiators in the front wheel well that disconnect the axle and fold the wheels away and to the side during a front or partial front impact. There are only two situations in which the door would fail to open, one is a side impact at 25 meters per second (90km/h) or more relative speed by a 1300kg vehicle (which gives the amount of force needed to damage the CFRP frame sufficiently to reach the door structure) or at 10 meter per second where the other vehicle's bumper directly impacts the door itself. The second is if some of the plastic body panels have been shunted up the vehicle... in which case any teenager or adult can still easily force the door open. Either way, at it's worst it's better than a two door four seat vehicle.

GreyDad wrote: »

It's also a pain in car parks

I actually find it easier, the rear doors are short and the lack of a B-pillar means both rear and front occupants can exit in a tighter space than a standard car. Sure, it's a pain in the ass having to open the front door to let a rear passenger out but other than that and making sure people close the doors in order, no practical issues.

GreyDad

GreyDad wrote: »

Not quite true - the Leaf *is* a ground-up EV design, it's not built on any pre-existing chassis and certainly isn't a conversion from an existing model, unlike the e-Up, e-Golf etc..

It does use common components from the rest of the Nissan range to keep production costs down, unlike the i3 which basically invented everything from scratch, hence the price.

The Leaf is essentially, an ice chassis adopted to take a battery and for good reason, it cost a lot more to produce an Ev back in 2008-10 when they were testing the modified Tiida.

caster

caster wrote: »

I assume the 6Kw charger is well worth getting as an option ?

Ok, some people disagree that the 6kw charger is worth an extra 900 so put it another way.

Go to the ecars charge point map, use the filter and select the green only chargers, the standard street charge points, then look at the blue which are the fast chargers and then think if you feel charging twice as fast from an ac charge point is worth it rather than have to always find a fast charge point which is likely to be already in use or even if not you still have to wait to charge where the ac charger could even get you to 100%.

At least 7 times now the 6.6 Kw has meant I didn't have to find and wait at a dc charger so to me that's absolutely worth the extra what , 25 euro's per month if you're buying it outright ?

Think if you buy the car fully and want to sell it on, do you think the 3.3 would be worth more than the 6.6 or more desirable ? not to me it wouldn't and I bet I'm not the only one.

Ask Dexter if he thinks charging in an hour to 80% at a ac point in his Zoe is a good thing or not , my point ? better to charge as fast as possible whenever and wherever possible.

To add to the above, thinking about whether or not it's convenient to charge twice as fast from an ac charge point, when the ESB charge for leccy and you've to pay for parking I think people would regret not having the 6.6. Last Sunday in Naas I got from 25%-100% in 2 hrs 20 mins which I actually thought was pretty useful.

pwurple

So, how do irish EV drivers get hold of charge cards for other countries?

Are they for sale? Do you need to apply in advance an order?

What's the story.

GreyDad

I think basically the same way us foreigners get hold of ESB cards for Ireland - contact the provider and ask for them

I know from UK forums that Dutch and Danish drivers have got cards from Ecotricity and others for visits to the UK and UK drivers get them for Holland and France, so it seems to be possible

I've not done it myself yet, so I can't pass on first-hand experience.

cros13

GreyDad wrote: »

I think basically the same way us foreigners get hold of ESB cards for Ireland - contact the provider and ask for them

Yup pretty much. Though many of the UK cards require a UK address (because people never move across borders in an EV :P ). Most cards also require you to setup an account and pay for the card and the charging.

I used parcelmotel to get many of the UK providers to send me cards. Though the Source London card didn;t show up until last week, because despite me giving them my Irish address (which the site allows) they decided that I was mistaken and that Dublin was in the UK after all.

caster

cros13 wrote: »

The i3 does a different job to the Leaf. The Leaf is a sub-urban C-category runabout that's incredibly cheap to run, pleasant to drive and practical to live with. The i3 is highly specialised and probably the best city car ever made. It's a production beta test vehicle for every next generation technology, material and production method that BMW and it's suppliers have in the pipeline. It's designed to be exhilarating to drive and if I'm honest... be noticed on the road. And it's targeted at people who are willing to pay for that, mainly wealthy urbanites (or at least two incomes no kids). Several of the i3's in Ireland were bought as part of a matching set with an i8 for the weekends.

As a matter of interest, what is your feeling regards to resale value on the i3 ? or are are you planning to keep it well beyond 3 years ?

So much technology involved, particularly battery technology which is improving at a fast rate, it seems like re-sale value is a lot more uncertain than an ICE car....

I have tested a few cars at this stage from full EV's to Hybrids, and the i3 is the one that impresses me the most and by some distance, a really great car, from how it feels sitting in the drivers seat, to the drive itself, really something!

The Leaf would be the head ruling the heart for me, particularly financially, but I'm just not sure I'd enjoy it anywhere like I would the i3.

Interesting regarding a potential battery upgrade for the i3. I would pay to get the battery upgraded if this was possible, I'd imagine its technically possible unless more space is required for larger battery, but I guess it depends on how BMW sees the existing i3 customer base.

TBH I would not pay BMW more for a battery upgrade , I could hardly imaging them offering a battery upgrade until the old battery has reached near end of life unless there is not so many sold that it would really matter. There isn't really a market yet for 2nd hand batteries. I can't remember reading anything in relation to this upgrade.

If Leaf II has Twice the capacity I won't pay a lot more for the extra range. I would rather wait until costs have come down. So say for instance Leaf II had a real range of 150 miles I would not pay 35,000 for that extra range but I would pay the same as I did for the current Leaf possibly a small premium more.

I could imaging the I3 holding it's value exceptionally well considering it'd got so much muscle, it would make it a very fun ultra cheap car to run. The leaf is holding it's value very well in Ireland.

cros13

caster wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what is your feeling regards to resale value on the i3 ? or are are you planning to keep it well beyond 3 years ?

I'm planning on keeping it as my city car and adding a Tesla to my stable for long distance in a few years. Depreciation has been good on EVs so far. I think we might see a hockey stick uptick in value when the 300km+ EVs start coming 'round. People will wake up to the running costs and other benefits of EV driving, not everyone can afford a new car or wants to risk a lot on their first EV.

chart23f2a00f391248d58ebed5b0badf9f8a.png Source: WhatCar?

caster wrote: »

So much technology involved, particularly battery technology which is improving at a fast rate, it seems like re-sale value is a lot more uncertain than an ICE car....

Here are some things to consider:
The carbon fiber frame and ABS body panels will never rust or deform due to age.
Mileage basically doesn't matter because most of the drivetrain components have indefinite lifespans
The only thing that matters with the batteries is charge cycles and discharge rate (funnily enough your battery may last longer if you have a lead foot instead of hypermiling) and their design life is over 20 years. They can also be replaced module by module in less than an hour by anyone who can follow the simple steps in the service manual.

caster wrote: »

I have tested a few cars at this stage from full EV's to Hybrids, and the i3 is the one that impresses me the most and by some distance, a really great car, from how it feels sitting in the drivers seat, to the drive itself, really something!

Yeah... definately a car that feels like it's something special.

caster wrote: »

The Leaf would be the head ruling the heart for me, particularly financially, but I'm just not sure I'd enjoy it anywhere like I would the i3.

You will never make an argument for the i3 on a financial basis.... but if we all bought cars like that we'd all be driving 1 liter Dacias. The i3 is a luxury... but it's soooo much fun to drive (in fact the longer you drive it for the more fun it becomes). I'm an R&D engineer and every aspect of the i3 from the CFRP to the adhesives and little design details fascinate me.

I was behind a White Lamborghini Aventador the other day and a bunch of tourists were taking photos.... but they weren't pointing their cameras at the Lambo
A few months back I had a Ferrari 458 driver flag me to the side of the road wanting to take a look at the car. I don't know any vehicle this side of €100k that gets the kind of attention the i3 does.

caster wrote: »

Interesting regarding a potential battery upgrade for the i3. I would pay to get the battery upgraded if this was possible, I'd imagine its technically possible unless more space is required for larger battery, but I guess it depends on how BMW sees the existing i3 customer base.

It's a strong possibility for the first gen i3 owners. BMW wants to keep the early adopters on side. But definitely in the long term BMW can't do battery replacements for mass market vehicles because there's no money in it.

The i3 battery is composed of eight modules, the idea being future models will have differing numbers of these standardised modules.

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I would not pay BMW more for a battery upgrade , I could hardly imaging them offering a battery upgrade until the old battery has reached near end of life unless there is not so many sold that it would really matter. There isn't really a market yet for 2nd hand batteries. I can't remember reading anything in relation to this upgrade.

It's almost certain now that a battery upgrade will be offered next year in North America. The only question is will that be extended to Europe.

BMW are planning a Home Solar battery for the german market composed of recycled i3 battery modules. Mercedes Benz/Daimler has already launched a similar home battery but for a different purpose... to increase production volumes of the packs and get their price per kWh down for the automotive packs.

cros13

Fun fact. This year BMW is on track to sell more i3s than 7 Series.

caster

cros13 wrote: »

I'm planning on keeping it as my city car and adding a Tesla to my stable for long distance in a few years. Depreciation has been good on EVs so far. I think we might see a hockey stick uptick in value when the 300km+ EVs start coming 'round. People will wake up to the running costs and other benefits of EV driving, not everyone can afford a new car or wants to risk a lot on their first EV.

Very reassuring and interesting how it follows the 3 series almost exactly.

cros13 wrote: »

Here are some things to consider:
The carbon fiber frame and ABS body panels will never rust or deform due to age.
Mileage basically doesn't matter because most of the drivetrain components have indefinite lifespans
The only thing that matters with the batteries is charge cycles and discharge rate (funnily enough your battery may last longer if you have a lead foot instead of hypermiling) and their design life is over 20 years. They can also be replaced module by module in less than an hour by anyone who can follow the simple steps in the service manual.

Yeah, thats the beauty of EV's , no engine, no gearbox etc, and therefore much less that can go wrong. As an ex-Alfa owner, this is a big thing. And yet, they are so nice to drive

cros13 wrote: »

It's a strong possibility for the first gen i3 owners. BMW wants to keep the early adopters on side. But definitely in the long term BMW can't do battery replacements for mass market vehicles because there's no money in it.

The i3 battery is composed of eight modules, the idea being future models will have differing numbers of these standardised modules.



It's almost certain now that a battery upgrade will be offered next year in North America. The only question is will that be extended to Europe.

BMW are planning a Home Solar battery for the german market composed of recycled i3 battery modules. Mercedes Benz/Daimler has already launched a similar home battery but for a different purpose... to increase production volumes of the packs and get their price per kWh down for the automotive packs.

Here's hoping that it is offered here.

I'd imagine that with improvements in battery price / kWh, battery Density and battery weight over the coming years, the battery itself will no long be a big part of the equation. Tesla seem to be driving this forward and the existing car manufacturers seem to be starting to follow. The next few years should be very interesting.