Views on my son's 5k time

Notwork Error

Sacksian wrote: »

That's from this thread: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4465229&page=1

Also, I'm not sure what we're arguing about. You seem to have taken one point from what I've posted above. The success or failure of my argument doesn't depend on Renato Canova. The point is that aerobic development can be achieved through general activity, which your quote above is saying the same thing:



Playing chasing or anything would be covered by the above too.

Yes, I'm not sure what we are arguing about either now. It's pretty obvious that the Kenyans huge amount of activity as kids contributes to their success.

I started off with the Kenyans as a point that long distance running was ok for kids which you agreed with. I was saying that the Kenyan kids could handle all that activity so why can't Irish kids was my point. All that extra activity put the Kenyans in a better position to reach their potential which is pretty obvious. You still seem to believe that the low mileage(low activity) activity levels are the best way to long term development even though your posts betray your points. Canova says that Pre, Snell etc. had high activity levels different to modern life and that activity levels were higher 50 years ago.


So essentially, higher activity levels develop better runners and don't cause harm which is the point I was making the whole time so why isn't long slow running a good form of training if it adds to activity levels? It is, they will have a stronger aerobic capacity down the road because they will have had a higher activity level. The kids will still play in general and other sports so what's the problem?

Sacksian

Notwork Error wrote: »

You still seem to believe that the low mileage(low activity) activity levels are the best way to long term development even though your posts betray your points.

At no point have I said that.

Sacksian

Notwork Error wrote: »

So essentially, higher activity levels develop better runners and don't cause harm which is the point I was making the whole time so why isn't long slow running a good form of training if it adds to activity levels? It is, they will have a stronger aerobic capacity down the road because they will have had a higher activity level. The kids will still play in general and other sports so what's the problem?

It's fine but my point was that clubs won't get involved in that because, for young kids, their model has to be focused on what works best generally for all disciplines. And introduce specialisation later. The current model ensure that kids gets a chance at lots of things.

The problem is not the clubs' approach of not encouraging kids to race 5ks or 10k, it's lower levels of activity in the wider culture.

I didn't do athletics with a club when I was a kid but, when I was 10 or 11, I did run every day down to Tolka Park and back before school for a couple of months, just because I liked running around. That was about 4 miles in total. And I played football, sometimes two 90 minute matches in a day, so I'm not against kids being active.

I just don't think not offering long-distance running to 10 year olds is a stick you should beat clubs with.

Notwork Error

Sacksian wrote: »

At no point have I said that.

But you said that the club system was right in the way that they develop kids which is a low mileage approach. I could've picked that up wrong?

I understand what you are saying about time consumption and the problems that lie in that area but is it the actual best way of developing runners purely from a development strategy of course? Would you agree that a long slow approach would develop runners in this range better over the approach in place now if the clubs could do it? Hypothetically of course.

Myles Splitz

Notwork Error wrote: »

Yes, I'm not sure what we are arguing about either now. It's pretty obvious that the Kenyans huge amount of activity as kids contributes to their success.

I started off with the Kenyans as a point that long distance running was ok for kids which you agreed with. I was saying that the Kenyan kids could handle all that activity so why can't Irish kids was my point. All that extra activity put the Kenyans in a better position to reach their potential which is pretty obvious. You still seem to believe that the low mileage(low activity) activity levels are the best way to long term development even though your posts betray your points. Canova says that Pre, Snell etc. had high activity levels different to modern life and that activity levels were higher 50 years ago.


So essentially, higher activity levels develop better runners and don't cause harm which is the point I was making the whole time so why isn't long slow running a good form of training if it adds to activity levels? It is, they will have a stronger aerobic capacity down the road because they will have had a higher activity level. The kids will still play in general and other sports so what's the problem?

I think the point that is being missed here is that kids are no longer running around for 5-8 hours a day on top of formal training. 2-3 hours of structured training a week are better suited focusing on form, developing motor skills and neural pathways.

It should also be noted that there are other factors in the Kenyan upbringing which need to be taken into account. Genetically they have better running economy due to less leg mass and longer lower limbs (on average)

It is also worth noting that from the Kenyans 75% of elite runners come from less than 11% of the overall population (Kalenjin). If the aerobic development from the early childhood was the primary factor this ratio would be a lot different.

Also interesting to note is that the likes of Paul Tergat and Wilson Kipketer lived just more than a mile from their schools so didn't have the same aerobic engine development that many claim. Proximity to schools will widely vary depending on the Kenyan also.

Sacksian

Notwork Error wrote: »

But you said that the club system was right in the way that they develop kids which is a low mileage approach. I could've picked that up wrong?

I understand what you are saying about time consumption and the problems that lie in that area but is it the actual best way of developing runners purely from a development strategy of course? Would you agree that a long slow approach would develop runners in this range better over the approach in place now if the clubs could do it?

Well, endurance running is a specialism. And, at the age we're talking about (11 and younger), the clubs are developing athletes that could take on one or a few of a range of disciplines.

My personal feeling is that, for young kids, and possibly even older ones, a variety of sports is best for their long-term development. I'd probably be uncomfortable with a kid spending 3 hours a day running but I'd have no problem with them playing in a field or playing football for 5!

Notwork Error

]I think the point that is being missed here is that kids are no longer running around for 5-8 hours a day on top of formal training. 2-3 hours of structured training a week are better suited focusing on form, developing motor skills and neural pathways.

I'm not missing the point, I understand the battles that clubs have with consumption. But why is there a problem with kids running long just because the clubs don't do it?

It should also be noted that there are other factors in the Kenyan upbringing which need to be taken into account. Genetically they have better running economy due to less leg mass and longer lower limbs (on average)

That's really a point for highend performance. Doesn't change a kids ability to run more much.

It is also worth noting that from the Kenyans 75% of elite runners come from less than 11% of the overall population (Kalenjin). If the aerobic development from the early childhood was the primary factor this ratio would be a lot different.

The kalejin and masai tribe are well known for huge amounts of activity and even rely on persistence hunting.They are doing far more exercise than the general population of Kenya. I don't see your point here?

Also interesting to note is that the likes of Paul Tergat and Wilson Kipketer lived just more than a mile from their schools so didn't have the same aerobic engine development that many claim. Proximity to schools will widely vary depending on the Kenyan also

How can you say that they didn't have an engine because they lived close to school?

demfad

I'm just getting stuck into a long awaited book about John Lenihan's (world mountain running champion '91) career and life. Might be relevant here.

He lived at at 350m above sea-level on the Stack's mountains between Tralee and Castleisland. Every step he took outside the house was either up or down. Although he is not much over 50, this was a different era where blackbird, hare etc were hunted and eaten as meat or broth. Otherwise you didn't eat meat. In the winter, conditions were harsh with the farm often cut off by the elements.
Ergo, he spent his childhood on foot, helping on the farm, hunting, playing in the glens and woodlands in tough surroundings. He spent several years in school and had to travel 6 miles down the mountain to Tralee and back up every day.

He only started running for races in mid teens and joined a club a few years later. In his career he managed (I think) 13 high on the track for 5000m, 47 low for 10 mile, 62.xx for the half and his mountain running ability is up a level or two on those achievements.

I've heard him talk on this a few times and I think he is pretty certain there is a strong relationship between his active childhood and his later ability physical and mental ability.
That could be due to early development of muscular/aerobic/endurance/exercise capacity in a growing body; could be due to Central governor adaptions due to continous tough activity in tough conditions. The point is IMO it was clearly of vital benefit to John and it was clearly of benefit for others (further afield) who grow up with similarly very active childhoods.
Interestingly, his coaches maintain that he could have raised his flat performances to a higher level had they got him a little earlier.

That would seem to me to suggest that in earlier childhood lots and lots of mucking about is most necessary for physical development and into teenage years some focus on form may be necessary, relaxed running etc. The ratio would always weight heavily on the lots of mucking about side.

Drills, and structured anaerobic stuff etc will speed them up in short track races in the short term. We don't even know if that's good or bad for them at that age and surely 'structured' training cant be 'general' training at that age?

Id go for more throwing stuff about, unstructured running, chasing games, nature runs for kids, with the minimum relaxed short strides to hold form.
The child will do what he/she enjoys best within the unstructure. The mucking about alone brought Lenihan to greatness. A few strides might have been the icing on the cake. The cake is not made of icing though. (cake time now)

Myles Splitz

Notwork Error wrote: »

]I think the point that is being missed here is that kids are no longer running around for 5-8 hours a day on top of formal training. 2-3 hours of structured training a week are better suited focusing on form, developing motor skills and neural pathways.

I'm not missing the point, I understand the battles that clubs have with consumption. But why is there a problem with kids running long just because the clubs don't do it?

It's not so much a problem more a case of they can't ensure the are sufficiently developed to handle the training. If you have a 12 year old twice a week where you have to develop motor skills, tendon strength, co-ordintation, proprioceptive skills, cognitive development there is no way you can have them doing enough mileage. I wouldn't recommend anyone doing racing 5ks off 10-12 miles a week no matter what age least of all when bones are actually growing at a faster rate than muscles.

It should also be noted that there are other factors in the Kenyan upbringing which need to be taken into account. Genetically they have better running economy due to less leg mass and longer lower limbs (on average)

That's really a point for highend performance. Doesn't change a kids ability to run more much.


Actually it makes a huge difference, following on from the development points I made previously there is actually more of a need for form development in European and American children again taking away from the precious training time, not to mention the injury risk factor which again during puberty is of huge importance

It is also worth noting that from the Kenyans 75% of elite runners come from less than 11% of the overall population (Kalenjin). If the aerobic development from the early childhood was the primary factor this ratio would be a lot different.

The kalejin and masai tribe are well known for huge amounts of activity and even rely on persistence hunting.They are doing far more exercise than the general population of Kenya. I don't see your point here?

You could say the same about the Turkana tribe who are very closely linked to the Masai yet outside of Paul Ereng have produced a very small number of runners proportional to the previous figures.

Also interesting to note is that the likes of Paul Tergat and Wilson Kipketer lived just more than a mile from their schools so didn't have the same aerobic engine development that many claim. Proximity to schools will widely vary depending on the Kenyan also

How can you say that they didn't have an engine because they lived close to school?

I didn't say that they didn't have an engine I have said that there are exceptions and not every East African runs copious amounts in childhood. My point was to highlight that while just increase workload and all train like the Kenyans do as is generally portrayed amongst many might seem like a good idea in theory ultimately I think society issue are the biggest cause for declines in performance levels rather than training idea's which are built towards optimizing what society is handing out (a progressively more sedentary, commercial driven society)

demfad

Myles Splitz wrote: »

I think the point that is being missed here is that kids are no longer running around for 5-8 hours a day on top of formal training. 2-3 hours of structured training a week are better suited focusing on form, developing motor skills and neural pathways.

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion. It is precisely because children are no longer running about for 5-8 hours a day that the clubs should take up some of this slack to keep an optimum ratio for development.

It is also worth noting that from the Kenyans 75% of elite runners come from less than 11% of the overall population (Kalenjin). If the aerobic development from the early childhood was the primary factor this ratio would be a lot different.

It can be a major factor without being a differentiating one. John Lenihan's exceptional childhood may show the results of when the volume of early work was major, differentiating and therefore decisive.

Myles Splitz

demfad wrote: »

I would respectfully disagree with that assertion. It is precisely because children are no longer running about for 5-8 hours a day that the clubs must take up some of this slack to keep an optimum ratio for development.

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

Notwork Error

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

I think what demfad is saying that because kids aren't getting the activity from normal living that clubs should focus more on activity levels than form and such. By doing so, Actually making them healthy in general body and mind and development. If they don't have the activity level in the first place, all the form work in the world won't make much of a difference.

That's my take on what he said anyway.

kit3

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

+1 In my opinion, it is very much a matter for parents and schools to tackle rather than any one individual club. Schools can do a lot in this regard but it's down to having individual teachers who are willing to put in the time & effort, generally outside of school hours. While each school has a physical activity curriculum to follow, having teachers who 'go the extra mile' as it were can make a huge difference. I consider myself fortunate in that the school that my kids attend have a healthy eating policy (means no arguments about what's in the lunchbox because the goodies are not allowed) and there are two particular teachers who put in a huge amount of time with the kids. The sports covered are gaelic football, camogie, hurling & athletics.

It is also very much down to parents to ensure that their kids are active and having them involved in a number of activities increases the likelihood of this between individual training sessions and matches etc. The parents being active themselves also helps.

An interesting observation regarding the school healthy eating policy (& off-topic I know:o) - my son started secondary school last year and there are two main feeder schools in the village - one with a healthy eating policy and one that doesn't have. He said that the majority of kids that are overweight in the class have come from the school without the healthy eating policy - might well be coincidence but .....

demfad

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Surely that is a debate for schools and parents doing more rather than clubs facilitating informal activity around normal training sessions?

Volunteer based coaches keeping the attention of 10 + kids for more than 1hr 2-3 times a week for formal training of important developmental skills is already a stretch. Anything more and you are getting into the point where coaches become nothing more than nannies.

Again fine in theory but to the best of my knowledge I don't know any club in this country which could provide the manpower to make this feasible.

And I think the large number of glute and hip injuries in adult distance runners and unsuccessful FAI recoveries (in comparison to more lateral movement sports such as hurling) in this country shows that we are already underdeveloped to a certain point in co-ordination and proprioceptive skills that can have a huge impact on elite development in the early 20s from an injury risk standpoint in consistent training.

The goal of running training is to help young runners to realise their potential as runners in a healthy manner.
That being true, IMO the club would need to know:

-The most important attributes needed to achieve this goal,
-The strenghts and weaknesses of the groups it typically trains vis a vis these attributes and
-The training to best address these weaknesses and enhance the strenght's of the typical group.

That's all straight forward I think.

In the second decade of 21st century Ireland, the typical group will have different strenght's and weaknesses to the typical Irish group back in the day. More weaknesses I would imagine. Their general aerobic and physical conditioning will be weaker. Weak also will be their co-ordination and proprioceptive skills as you have pointed out (I agree but I would argue the former as the far more serious and significant weakness for potential runners.)

As I've said, weaknesses need to be identified and addressed to achieve the runners potential. Historical reasons (emerging sedentary lifestyle) why aerobic conditioning etc. is the glaring weakness now in Irish youngsters are surely not reasons to ignore it. That wont make the weakness dissappear.

Adapting training (if possible) to address this weakness is necessary if potential is to be realised. And it can be adapted.

E.g

The Gerry Farnan devised Phoenix park Cats and Mice game (that Coghlan played as a youngster) got a lot of aerobic work, sprinting, some anaerobic work, speed endurance and more in. As it was a chasing game and off-road you got the co-ordination/agility work thrown in for free. Again the kids individually can thrive within this unstructure. One session that is truly one size fits all.

(One coach can supervise a lot of kids there too).

Myles Splitz

demfad wrote: »

The goal of running training is to help young runners to realise their potential as runners in a healthy manner.

That being true, IMO the club would need to know:

-The most important attributes needed to achieve this goal,
-The strenghts and weaknesses of the groups it typically trains vis a vis these attributes and
-The training to best address these weaknesses and enhance the strenght's of the typical group.

That's all straight forward I think.

In the second decade of 21st century Ireland, the typical group will have different strenght's and weaknesses to the typical Irish group back in the day. More weaknesses I would imagine.
Their general aerobic and physical conditioning will be weaker. Weak also will be their co-ordination and proprioceptive skills as you have pointed out (I agree but I would argue the former as the far more serious and significant weakness for potential runners.)
As I've said, weaknesses need to be identified and addressed to achieve the runners potential. Citing the historical reasons why aerobic conditioning etc. is the glaring weakness now in Irish youngsters are surely not valid reasons to ignore it. That doesnt make the weakness dissapear.

Adapting training to address the weakness is necessary if potential is to be realised.

E.g

The Gerry Farnan Phoenix park Cats and Mice game got a lot of aerobic work, sprinting, some anaerobic work, speed endurance and more. As it was a chasing game and off-road you got the co-ordination/agility work thrown in for free. Again the kids individually can thrive within this unstructure. One session that is not one size fits all.

(One coach can supervise a lot of kids there too).

I think that the issue here is that many templates in this country are based on athletics development rather than just distance running. Effectively the cost reward ratio in clubs with a high aerobic training approach would take up 75% of training time at least to get the desired effects to point where other elements will suffer, as well as predominantly fast twitch fiber youngsters well suited to high jump or sprints being alienated also as well as explosive power throwers.

I agree with your example of a good initiative and I think more should be included but I would like to see these on top of current training rather than replacing it. To this day I still think snatch the bacon is probably the greatest training session you can have an 8-10 year old do for similar reasons to what you have listed.

Perhaps a solution would be that clubs establish a fitness creche approach but again you are talking about a very small proportion of volunteer based coaches and while it may be possible for a coach to handle a large number of kids in events like this realistically a 1:10 ratio is about as much as you can have from a health and safety standpoint when dealing with youngsters.

dna_leri

rom wrote: »

There are a whole lot of adults that shouldn't be running long distance due to poor form if that is the case. Who dictates what poor running forum is. If you had a child version of Paula Radcliff with her bobbing head would you pull her off the route? The restrictions that society puts on children and women are outdated. 3000 was the longest track race that women could do and this changed in Sonia O'Sullivans time. The arguments there were seen to be invalid. Somehow racing a 5k is bad for a kid but doing a 2000m XC race is not. The most horrible race I ever did was the Munsters schools XC at 12. It took nearly 15 mins for me to get my breath back.

I used to play team sports also when I was younger. There is no one questioning that 90 mins of a soccer pitch is too long for young kid etc. I have never heard anyone ever saying "Look at that guy he can has loads of health issues as he ran too much and too hard as a kid".

I'm not sure what points you are trying to prove here but I don't get any of them. Are you saying that it was good that it took you nearly 15 mins to recover after XC at 12? I know I had a similar experience at that age and it almost put me off running until I found some limited talent at shorter distances by accident. That was nearly knocked out of me also at one point when a new coach put me out jogging through mud. No wonder I still don't enjoy XC.

Actually most kids do not play 90 mins of a soccer match until they reach U17 and at younger ages they play on smaller pitches. I also know one talented kid who was run into the ground from too many miles too early. We do not have enough talent to allow a high % to drop out through over training (or under achieving) as happens in some countries.

All children should be exposed to a variety of sports so they can specialize in their late teens if talented enough or if less talented they can maintain a healthy fitness level throughout their lives in a sport they enjoy.

thesimpsons

I've read most of the thread but have to admit I only skimmed some of it. I've a 15yr old girl who runs 5km 2/3 times a week for run and work off stress of life, does a 10k few times a year and has done a few half marathons (which I've tried to discourage cos do think they too long and might lead to problems in later life). she joined a club about 2 yrs ago and just got bored to tears with the short distances. she can pace herself very easily and would have a spurt for the end of the race. Virtually none of her friends do sport anymore as they got fed up with the very competitive element of the hockey, camogie, running, soccer clubs. if you weren't an A player, you didn't get game time. With running she sets her own pace, her own times and its kept her in sport. She actually trained and paced an adult cousin for a 10k earlier this year to get from over 1hr 10mins down to 57 mins. Clubs aren't for everyone. I'd prefer to see her in sport of whatever kind she enjoys than doing nothing. IF there are problems wit form later, then they can be tackled then.

Tigerandahalf

@thesimpsons

No harm in not joining a club. Some people feel pushed in a club or under pressure to compete against others. Any 15 year old girl getting regular exercise is doing well.

As regards times I see an 11-14 year old lad ran the Westport parkrun in 18.15 or something on Saturday.

Sunny Dayz

Hi OP, I only came across this thread now. My son is 10 (nearly 11) and does 5km in about 26/27 mins. He's not really into sport, he prefers cars, rallying and Formula 1, sO I'm happy he is getting asome form of exercise that he enjoys. My local GAA club started a fitness club last summer for the kids and he did that and when it finished up for the summer, he continued on with me doing the adult runs over the winter. Meeting twice a week doing 4-5 km each time. Warm up stretches and cools downs also. He really enjoys doing this, there have been evenings I wouldn't want to go out running only for himself! When the kids fitness started back this summer he said he wanted to stay doing the adults running and prefers doing runs out on the road rather than laps around the pitch or the kids games.
I have tried to get him into the athletics club in the nearest town but they have said they are full up and there is a waiting list. He actually did a 10k the May bank holiday, completed it in 1 hr 13 mins.


Your son did a pretty good time but I would leave it up to him to do what he enjoys. I made my son go to football training when he was younger and he didn't enjoy it, and it was a hassle to get him to go. Now he looks forward to his runs and can't wait to get out the door and enjoys participating in any local fun runs.