Views on my son's 5k time

Lex Luther

Hi my son was 11 in June.
He recently ran a 5k road race in just under 22 minutes off no specific training and it didnt seem to knock a feather out of him.
(He's generally fit through playing lots of sport).
What I'm wondering is , how does taht time sound to people who know for that age ? Should I see about getting him into a club ( he'd have to ditch some other sport but if he has a bit of talent at running I want to give him a chance to develop).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Lex

Notwork Error

Lex Luther wrote: »

Hi my son was 11 in June.
He recently ran a 5k road race in just under 22 minutes off no specific training and it didnt seem to knock a feather out of him.
(He's generally fit through playing lots of sport).
What I'm wondering is , how does taht time sound to people who know for that age ? Should I see about getting him into a club ( he'd have to ditch some other sport but if he has a bit of talent at running I want to give him a chance to develop).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Lex

That's very good running for an 11 year old.

I think the key here though is what he wants to do. If he doesn't want to run, don't push him into dropping other sports that he may prefer. All the talent in the world means nothing if he doesn't enjoy it as somewhere down the line, the cracks will start to show and it won't matter how good he is running, he'll pack it in.

If he wants to do it, sign him up to a club and encourage him. It should be all about fun at that age and he'll meet loads of new friends as well.

Clearlier

Lex Luther wrote: »

Hi my son was 11 in June.
He recently ran a 5k road race in just under 22 minutes off no specific training and it didnt seem to knock a feather out of him.
(He's generally fit through playing lots of sport).
What I'm wondering is , how does taht time sound to people who know for that age ? Should I see about getting him into a club ( he'd have to ditch some other sport but if he has a bit of talent at running I want to give him a chance to develop).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Lex

Hey Lex,

Get him doing as many sports as he likes. At this stage it's all about enjoyment and general skill development. Specialisation if appropriate comes at 15 or 16. It's absolutely impossible to say whether an 11 year old is going to be a great athlete or not - it's just too early.

Chivito550

11 year olds should not be running 5k races IMO. By all means sign him up with an athletics club and let him try out all the various disciplines, and he'll find the ones that he likes the most. 11 year olds should be running 100s and 800s, and jumping into sand, leaping over a bar, and throwing a spear as far as possible, not slogging it out through miles.

walshb

Excellent time.

As to the age and the distance, if he has bundles of energy what's the harm? I know we ran/jogged 2/3/4 miles when training as kids in boxing. It's not at all slogging it out if the kid has a good make up.

Dubgal72

Hi Lex, great advice above. At your son's age, variety is key. If he decides to specialise in running at age 15 or 16 as Clearlier suggests, all the skills he has learned from other sports and disciplines will come with him and help make him a more holistic, and therefore better, athlete. Also, if it goes pear-shaped and running does not work out for him, he has 'something else' to fall back on.

Lex Luther

Thanks to all..he loves running, I wouldnt at all want him running so far normally and would discourage - but it was just a local fun run that he really wanted to try. He normally does sprints etc for school, community games.
He's sports mad - does soccer, gaa, hurling and wants to do everything. Something has to give and I'm just trying to figure out best for him. His run suprised me, I was expecting him to be much slower/ find it much harder. I just wondered whether the time seemed good and that maybe I should let him try out athletics a bit more seriously..as a proud dad I'm conscious I'm obviously biased.
Thanks again !

Chivito550

Lex Luther wrote: »

Thanks to all..he loves running, I wouldnt at all want him running so far normally and would discourage - but it was just a local fun run that he really wanted to try. He normally does sprints etc for school, community games.
He's sports mad - does soccer, gaa, hurling and wants to do everything. Something has to give and I'm just trying to figure out best for him. His run suprised me, I was expecting him to be much slower/ find it much harder. I just wondered whether the time seemed good and that maybe I should let him try out athletics a bit more seriously..as a proud dad I'm conscious I'm obviously biased.
Thanks again !

What are his times for the sprints and other short distances? If you have those times then it is easier to tell how good his 5k time is relatively speaking.

demfad

Lex Luther wrote: »

Thanks to all..he loves running, I wouldnt at all want him running so far normally and would discourage - but it was just a local fun run that he really wanted to try. He normally does sprints etc for school, community games.
He's sports mad - does soccer, gaa, hurling and wants to do everything. Something has to give and I'm just trying to figure out best for him. His run suprised me, I was expecting him to be much slower/ find it much harder. I just wondered whether the time seemed good and that maybe I should let him try out athletics a bit more seriously..as a proud dad I'm conscious I'm obviously biased.
Thanks again !

Hi Lex. Enjoyment is key.

These trail/hill races are off road and mighty crack. They have short courses for juniors too.

https://www.imra.ie/leagues/view/id/240/

Look at these orienteering events too, in particular the 'come and try it' events. Short course can be done in well under and hour. They are like a running treasure hunt.

Developing all round skills is important. Enjoyment is key and if he enjoys running aerobic miles then there you go. It will do him only good.

Notwork Error

Chivito550 wrote: »

11 year olds should not be running 5k races IMO. By all means sign him up with an athletics club and let him try out all the various disciplines, and he'll find the ones that he likes the most. 11 year olds should be running 100s and 800s, and jumping into sand, leaping over a bar, and throwing a spear as far as possible, not slogging it out through miles.

I agree that kids should try out all the events and see what they like best.

Not so much on the slogging, that makes it sound really negative. When I was 11, I used to run 10k's and it didn't hurt me. We used to go out and play soccer on the green for so long during in the evening, weekend and summer that the score would often reach triple digits. I'm pretty sure I was running more miles and at a higher intensity as an 11 year old than I am at 25 and never felt tired. I'd recover almost instantly.

That natural fitness and all round energy is just incredible at that age. As Joe Vigil says, Kenyan youths are running up to 8-12k per day and have racked up almost 10,000 miles by the time they reach highschool. They are no different to any other kids, that's just a cultural perception.

If the kid is enjoying running miles and doing it under their own motivation, I don't see a problem with running long distance and the studies are there to back it up. A young kid is no more likely to suffer injury or physiological damage than a fully grown adult.

Wottle

It's a good time and its a time I'd expect most of our 11year olds to be able to run, if not quicker. But they don't race 5ks.
They race 600m on the track and times range from 1'43 to 2'00 mins which is about 4:40 to 5:15 mile pace.
I think if he likes running, get him in a club, he doesn't have to specialise either, athletics has loads of events, javelin, long jump etc and see how he goes over 600m. Sounds like he has a good engine.
In xc the most they would race is 1500 to 2000m.

Tigerandahalf

There are young lads running similar times in parkruns around us. It would be as good a time as most young lads would be running.
Let him enjoy it and if the desire and talent is there it will naturally come out.
Out of interest what distance will the junior parkrun be and under what age?

RayCun

Get him into a club

and I agree with Chivito (!!! alert the newspapers !!!) he shouldn't be running those distances
With any runner, of any age, a long distance run will tend to be bad for your running form. You get tired, you slump over, your stride shortens etc. Too much tired running, and not enough thought about form, and you end up a one-paced shuffler. Kids like to run fast, and they recover quickly, but they don't have much endurance. 5k is very far for them, and too much running like that will be very bad for their running technique

Being a good runner at 11 isn't always a good indicator of being a good runner at 15, or 19, or 25, by the way. But if he enjoys it, he'll do better with proper coaching than going out and doing a parkrun every weekend (which far too many kids do)

average_runner

I agree with Ray and Chivito, get him into a club where they work on his technique and form. Everything else will come as he progresses. But let him enjoy it all.

ThisRegard

Notwork Error wrote: »

That natural fitness and all round energy is just incredible at that age.

Problem is that it can be old pretty quick, kids get bored doing the same thing quite easily, they need a bit of variation.

Pherekydes

It's ok, but you'll have to face facts: your son is no Superman.

Pawwed Rig

Chivito550 wrote: »

11 year olds should not be running 5k races IMO.

Why as a matter of interest?
I have a 10 year old niece who does that distance regularly enough. Any research I have read would seem to indicate that it is no harm once the child enjoys it.

walshb

Looking back on some of the points made as regards young children running long distances I have to say that they are very valid points. No harm in it, but not as advisable as starting off on the shorter distances to develop and nurture!

rom

Age graded its 69.58% which would be similar to a 18:32 for a 23 year old male time. So yes he could come top 10 in a 5k (depending on the field)

tbh its probably more important that he likes running/racing at this stage. The current 10k Irish champ used to finish in 20+ places at 13/14 so those that "showed more potential" at the time are all gone. Longevity is more important than his times currently.

Having him give up team sports to focus on athletics is probably not a great idea.

Field/team sports with sprinting is probably quite complementary to short distance running.

Age graded is normally representative of the percentages below.

>100% = World record level
> 90% = World class
> 80% = National class
> 70% = Regional class
> 0% = An Athlete

Notwork Error

Ah lads, I think ye're being a bit harsh on the time. You're talking about an 11 year old who has done no actual run training and just jumped into a 5k fun run.

Wottle

Notwork Error wrote: »

Ah lads, I think ye're being a bit harsh on the time. You're talking about an 11 year old who has done no actual run training and just jumped into a 5k fun run.

I agree, I think it's a great starting point and I'd love to get him into our club, XC only around the corner.
PM me if you're looking for info on juvenile clubs (south Dublin area)

walshb

Notwork Error wrote: »

Ah lads, I think ye're being a bit harsh on the time. You're talking about an 11 year old who has done no actual run training and just jumped into a 5k fun run.

I don't think harsh is the correct word here. I don't think anybody is being harsh. Just giving an honest answer to the question. Seems like a great time to me.

Orienteering is a great sport for families. My 6 month old has already posted 2 times in a pram, though she is useless for spotting the controls and just laughs at the leaves.

Lex Luther

Again thanks to everyone for taking the time to give honest feedback which I really appreciate and which has helped enormously.
Just wanted to get some objective views and opinions as the advice and knowledge here is always very good.
Lex

Tom__jnr2

Lex Luther wrote: »

Hi my son was 11 in June.
He recently ran a 5k road race in just under 22 minutes off no specific training and it didnt seem to knock a feather out of him.
(He's generally fit through playing lots of sport).
What I'm wondering is , how does taht time sound to people who know for that age ? Should I see about getting him into a club ( he'd have to ditch some other sport but if he has a bit of talent at running I want to give him a chance to develop).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Lex

Fair play for your son...support him and you will have great athlete in few years. Would say shorter distances firts to develope his speed. There is always time for endurance training.

P.S. His time puts many adults into shame...

Myles Splitz

shiibata wrote: »

Did do 5Ks at a young age but he stopped as was told not good for that age.

A child should never be discouraged from a sport and anyone ruling them out that young really doesn't know what they are on about.

Three factors which need to be taken into account are natural talent, response to training and puberty as all have huge impact on performance at that age.

If the child has an interest in sport encourage but let them make the choice and facilitate that choice. Early specialization is not usually encouraged in distance running better to develop wide range of functional movement skills and visual sensory skills that have greater transference over a wide range of sports and day to day activities later in life.

Pawwed Rig

shiibata wrote: »

:rolleyes: I only said he was advised against 5Ks at that young age, I never said he was discouraged from the sport, far from it.

Why though? You're not the first on this thread to say something similar

RayCun

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why though? You're not the first on this thread to say something similar

Because athletes need to learn the skill of running. The more 'bad' running you do, the more bad habits you pick up, and that is particularly true if you are running long and slow. And if you have a kid who is very active anyway from other sports, there is even less need to worry about developing their endurance. Make them good runners and the endurance will follow in time.

Pawwed Rig

IMO the most important thing is that they are enjoying it. Where they enjoy it they keep active and will find their preferred sport/distance over time.

While I am sure you can find arguments for and against this was a article from one website that I found interesting http://www.runnersworld.com/high-school/should-kids-run-long

Notwork Error

RayCun wrote: »

Because athletes need to learn the skill of running. The more 'bad' running you do, the more bad habits you pick up, and that is particularly true if you are running long and slow. And if you have a kid who is very active anyway from other sports, there is even less need to worry about developing their endurance. Make them good runners and the endurance will follow in time.

But is the slow running ruins your form idea a fallacy? Most kids have great form(there are exceptions of course). When I think of kids who ran long distances young under their own motivation, I think of guys like Moses Mosop here:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/moses-mosop-samsung-diamond-league-eugene-19782776.jpg

He's a guy with sub-50 400m speed which would put many a sprinter to shame.

I think of Gerry Lindgren, John Treacy and every runner pre 1990. Many people point to the adoption of the Coe/Horwill low mileage, high intensity training by coaches in the early 90's as the death of distance running in Europe and America. Coaches only wanted the kids to run middle distance as they thought that was how you make an athlete and all these ideas of long distance running ruining form and kids ability to progress started to pop up or even that it stunts growth.

There is nothing to back up claims that long distance running impacts kids in any negative way. In fact, running hard intervals is far more damaging and at risk of burnout. There is plenty of evidence to back up that long distance running will not do anymore harm to them than adults.


The key thing is what the kid wants to do and enjoying it. As a guy who has first hand experience of running long distance as a kid, it didn't do me any harm, I could still go out and win 600m races which while probably my strongest event at the time, I never enjoyed it as much as running long. Obviously, my view is biased but I'd still like to know where you coming from Ray?

RayCun

Notwork Error wrote: »

But is the slow running ruins your form idea a fallacy? Most kids have great form

I'd say long and slow, but especially tired running

Kids (in my experience at least) are very prone to starting too fast and finishing at a slog. And a lot of them don't have great form to begin with - arms all over the place, feet dragging or kicking out behind, you name it. Kids like to run fast, which usually looks better than their parents' jogging . That's kind of the point, keep them running fast!

Many people point to the adoption of the Coe/Horwill low mileage, high intensity training by coaches in the early 90's as the death of distance running in Europe and America. Coaches only wanted the kids to run middle distance as they thought that was how you make an athlete and all these ideas of long distance running ruining form and kids ability to progress started to pop up or even that it stunts growth.

sure, you can go too far the other way. I wouldn't set a hard limit on how far an 11 year old should be running, and whatever distance it is for a particular 11 year old, you'd expect it to go up with age.

But whatever you do with an 11 year old, you should be thinking about how this is going to benefit them 10 years down the line. Improving their technique as a runner is going to keep paying off for the rest of their running lives. A steady 10/15 minute run at a controlled pace has its place in building strength. 800-1500m races, sure, and the future distance runners will enjoy them more than a sprint.

A 5k race? The fact that its a race means they'll be running as fast as they can, and they can't sustain that, so they are going to spend half the race running badly.* Where is the benefit?

*I see this a lot. There are some kids around my son's age who compete with him in XC and 600/800 on the track. I've also seen them run some road 5ks. On the track they're graceful. At the end of XC they're tired but strong. At the end of a road race they look like they have a bag full of bricks on their backs.

Lex Luther

interesting debate and sorry if I've unintentionally started a barn fire..
just one more comment ..actually the main reason I posted in the first place wasnt just about the time my son posted but more his very good form (relaxed and graceful) in the last 1/2 k which I observed as I ran back down the road to check on him (and which was remarked on by several less biased observers than I am)

Lex

HelenAnne

RayCun wrote: »

A 5k race? The fact that its a race means they'll be running as fast as they can, and they can't sustain that, so they are going to spend half the race running badly.* Where is the benefit?

*I see this a lot. There are some kids around my son's age who compete with him in XC and 600/800 on the track. I've also seen them run some road 5ks. On the track they're graceful. At the end of XC they're tired but strong. At the end of a road race they look like they have a bag full of bricks on their backs.

Doesn't it depend on the kid? I saw two young girls at a parkrun last week, I think under 10 and under 11. One of them was in 2nd woman position after the first lap (less than halfway) and I thought 'Good for her, but I wonder can she hold that pace?' -- she finished as second woman, under 21 mins, and finished strong. the next little girl was a bit behind her (but under 22 mins I'd say), and still running well coming up the final hill. She even put on a spurt over the last couple of hundred metres when a man was closing on her. I was pretty impressed!

walshb

The main point about kids wanting to always just explode and run fast is spot on. They are best suited to the shorter distances. No doubt. They have not yet gained the maturity and relaxed attitude to pacing and easing up and thinking as they race/run, hence the longer distances results in a real drop in quality and form and technique. I still wouldn't discourage 10/11/12 year olds from going on longer runs for cardio workouts!

RayCun

HelenAnne wrote: »

Doesn't it depend on the kid? I saw two young girls at a parkrun last week, I think under 10 and under 11. One of them was in 2nd woman position after the first lap (less than halfway) and I thought 'Good for her, but I wonder can she hold that pace?' -- she finished as second woman, under 21 mins, and finished strong. the next little girl was a bit behind her (but under 22 mins I'd say), and still running well coming up the final hill. She even put on a spurt over the last couple of hundred metres when a man was closing on her. I was pretty impressed!

Those are good times for 9 and 10 year old girls, I won't argue with that!

RayCun

just for an analogy, I understand that in soccer there are lots of debates about how small a pitch kids should be playing in at each age, how long each half should be, things like that. Because, although 11 year olds could play on a full size pitch, and some of them might prefer it, it doesn't help them develop footballing skills

RayCun

Lex Luther wrote: »

just one more comment ..actually the main reason I posted in the first place wasnt just about the time my son posted but more his very good form (relaxed and graceful) in the last 1/2 k which I observed as I ran back down the road to check on him (and which was remarked on by several less biased observers than I am)

that's good, you should try to get him into a club

Notwork Error

RayCun wrote: »

But whatever you do with an 11 year old, you should be thinking about how this is going to benefit them 10 years down the line. Improving their technique as a runner is going to keep paying off for the rest of their running lives. A steady 10/15 minute run at a controlled pace has its place in building strength. 800-1500m races, sure, and the future distance runners will enjoy them more than a sprint.

A 5k race? The fact that its a race means they'll be running as fast as they can, and they can't sustain that, so they are going to spend half the race running badly.* Where is the benefit?.

I think the problem with the looking out for their best interest in 10 years by running fast is flawed to be honest and I think it's a generalisation that all kids want to run fast. Bad pacing has the exact same consquences in any race from 200m up, fast running will actually expose more flaws in a runners technique. To see that, all you have to do is look at 400m runners coming down the stretch who went out too fast. If a kid can learn to pace an 800m race, they can learn to pace a 5k in my opinion. And I really don't believe once off races ingrain bad technique. As long as they are doing some sort of speed drills or workouts, long slow running will not have a damaging effect on their form.

As for looking in their best interest 10 years down the line meaning focusing on speed now, I don't agree with that at all, Aerobic endurance takes a lot longer and has more of a performance benefit than speed training. Aerobic running will give them more opportunities to make a decision down the line on whether they want to run middle distance or longer distance because of how muscle fibers work.

Speed is controlled predominantly by muscle fibre type, you are born with only a certain amount of slowtwitch and fasttwitch fibres and they cannot be changed. There is another fibre type called the intermediate fibre which can be trained to be recruited by either fasttwitch or slowtwitch depending on whether you are training for speed or endurance. These muscle fibers can be changed to work for endurance or speed very quickly so while you may lose speed while endurance training, it's very easy to convert them back if you focus on speed so a runner has never lost their speed with the exception of ageing or medical problems. Speed is a far more limited avenue for improvement than endurance as the fiber type rules the roost.

The aerobic engine is far more difficult to build but still needed by both middle and distance runners abd the gains can be huge. Not to mind that aerobic fitness is the foundation of all running from 800m up and why periodisation is the way it is currently. You build a base first and you work on speed after and I don't see why that should be reversed for kids.

By confining kids to middle distance and speedwork, I think coaches are stunting the progress as they have specialised them early in their life because if speed doesn't dissapear fully with distance training, it only temporarily goes due to training focus, why not focus on something that takes a decade or more to build which is endurance first? Keep it aerobic but always keep that hint of speed.

Renato Canova talks about this at length on letsrun about his elite marathon runners (they aren't kids but the rules still apply in my opinion). He says that he could take one of his marathon athletes and turn them into a 10k machine in a few months if that was what they wanted to do. He says it's a lot more difficult to take a 10k runner and turn them into a marathon runner because of the lack of an aerobic house as he calls it and all of the lactate training they have done.

Speedwork is just roof on the fully built aerobic house. Thats my take on it anyway. Take it for what it's worth!:)

RayCun

I wouldn't describe it as concentrating on speed, but as concentrating on form. In some ways its easier to study form when someone is running at a decent speed because everything is heightened, but you're trying to teach them things that they will apply in an easy-paced or steady run too. And maybe when putting together your training plan think less about the intervals they are going to run and more about the work you can do to improve their balance and coordination during those intervals.

You say it takes a decade or more to build endurance. Well, these are 11 year olds! They have a decade or more! They have plenty of time to run shorter distances and build up their strength, and the older they get the more capable they are of handling an increased load. But the older they get, the harder it is to change their running style, and the more they run the more that style becomes ingrained. So make them good runners first, and then they can be good sprinters or good middle distance runners or good endurance runners

(the distances they run aren't that short by the way, boys under 12 run 2k in the county XC so a lot of them will run that regularly in training)

Notwork Error

RayCun wrote: »

I wouldn't describe it as concentrating on speed, but as concentrating on form. In some ways its easier to study form when someone is running at a decent speed because everything is heightened, but you're trying to teach them things that they will apply in an easy-paced or steady run too. And maybe when putting together your training plan think less about the intervals they are going to run and more about the work you can do to improve their balance and coordination during those intervals.

You say it takes a decade or more to build endurance. Well, these are 11 year olds! They have a decade or more! They have plenty of time to run shorter distances and build up their strength, and the older they get the more capable they are of handling an increased load. But the older they get, the harder it is to change their running style, and the more they run the more that style becomes ingrained. So make them good runners first, and then they can be good sprinters or good middle distance runners or good endurance runners

(the distances they run aren't that short by the way, boys under 12 run 2k in the county XC so a lot of them will run that regularly in training)

I've to hit the road but I think aerobic development is a far more significant long term training ideal than form. Form cqn be worked on by running a few hills every week. Aerobic development is something that takes years of long slow distance. I don't think you understood the point I was making about a decade or more to max out aerobic capacity, theoretically it you can always improve it, I mean that it is the foundation of all running and the key to longterm improvement and why not start now when the kids are young if speed in middle and distance runners can be developed quickly later. By developing it early, you won't have to spend an extra 4-5 years developing it when you could be spending 6 months developing the speed on top on the endurance you have built. It's a lot easier to step down in distance than it is to step up is what I was saying so a kid who runs 5k's etc isn't as specialised and has more options available to them.

It's like when someone base trains for a 5k, they always run the miles to for a 10k but they up the speed and intensity and drop the miles for the specific/specialised phase. Running is a pretty simple sport at the end of the day and one of the biggest rules is distance first, speed later and I don't see why that rule doesn't apply to kids.Base training phase is always longer than the specific phase because it is the foundation. Speed training is always shorter than it because early peaking and burnout is likely. This is periodisation over one cycle but can be applied to longer Macrocycles (over a year) and running as an even longer and bigger picture. It's structure.


There's a reason Kenyan and Ethopia dominate running from 800-marathon. They all ran long as kids and developed endurance first, even the 800m runners.

RayCun

I think one point you're missing is that children are not just shorter adults.

If we were talking about 20 year old beginner runners and arguing about the best way to prepare them for a shot at qualification to the 2028 Olympics, the situation would be different. But kids can do things that adults can't, and can't do other things that adults can. They are more flexible, have better reactions, and are better learners than adults, but they are much weaker.

Chivito550

Notwork Error wrote: »

I've to hit the road but I think aerobic development is a far more significant long term training ideal than form. Form cqn be worked on by running a few hills every week. Aerobic development is something that takes years of long slow distance. I don't think you understood the point I was making about a decade or more to max out aerobic capacity, theoretically it you can always improve it, I mean that it is the foundation of all running and the key to longterm improvement and why not start now when the kids are young if speed in middle and distance runners can be developed quickly later. By developing it early, you won't have to spend an extra 4-5 years developing it when you could be spending 6 months developing the speed on top on the endurance you have built. It's a lot easier to step down in distance than it is to step up is what I was saying so a kid who runs 5k's etc isn't as specialised and has more options available to them.

It's like when someone base trains for a 5k, they always run the miles to for a 10k but they up the speed and intensity and drop the miles for the specific/specialised phase. Running is a pretty simple sport at the end of the day and one of the biggest rules is distance first, speed later and I don't see why that rule doesn't apply to kids.Base training phase is always longer than the specific phase because it is the foundation. Speed training is always shorter than it because early peaking and burnout is likely. This is periodisation over one cycle but can be applied to longer Macrocycles (over a year) and running as an even longer and bigger picture. It's structure.


There's a reason Kenyan and Ethopia dominate running from 800-marathon. They all ran long as kids and developed endurance first, even the 800m runners.

There's an awful lot of distance running bias here. Kids should be kept open to all disciplines, and see what they enjoy the most and are best at, then specialise when older. The above is a nice way of killing off having any future decent sprinters, jumpers and throwers. How does all these long runs benefit these disciplines?

Ray is right. Good form, along with lots of variety are the most important things at that age.

Enduro

Chivito550 wrote: »

There's an awful lot of distance running bias here. Kids should be kept open to all disciplines, and see what they enjoy the most and are best at, then specialise when older. The above is a nice way of killing off having any future decent sprinters, jumpers and throwers. How does all these long runs benefit these disciplines?

If kids should be kept open to all disciplenes (which I agree with), should that not include longer distances as well?

I know in my day there was no sporting outlet for a slow-twitcher like me. Everything (athletics and ball-sports) was all about speed and sprinting, which put me off all of them (as I was crap, having less speed than almost everyone). It would have been nice to have had the opportunity to try out longer distance running (never done at my school), and would probably have gotten me into athletics a lot earlier.

Ultrapussy

RayCun wrote: »

I think one point you're missing is that children are not just shorter adults.

If we were talking about 20 year old beginner runners and arguing about the best way to prepare them for a shot at qualification to the 2028 Olympics, the situation would be different. But kids can do things that adults can't, and can't do other things that adults can. They are more flexible, have better reactions, and are better learners than adults, but they are much weaker.

And exactly how do 'you' as a parent and coach train good running form, Ray? Drills and plyometric exercises? Are these really a good idea for kids? Remember Ray, their bodies are growing: do you or any Irish club coaches have the necessary and very important understanding of the musculoskeletal development of children? On the whole, I'd guess you or most don't and in fact, most shouldn't be allowed within a mile of kids.

Look at the drop out rates. Kids are getting hammered in the clubs and then by the time they turn 13/14 they're out. Club coaches/parents living vicariously through kids is the big problem and 'coaches' who really don't have a clue. Some coaches even give kids sweets after and during sessions; some coaches are runners and don't even know how to structure their own training and yet they are let loose on kids.

Aerobic development with (as your man says) a hint of speed and a good mix of sports, where fun is the driving force and not the parents' egos is the right way to go.

The system of getting kids to run the 600m in community games and County Champs etc is a big problem: coaches have the kids doing intervals in prep for these races - some/most of these kids haven't even hit puberty. Stop and think about what's happening to those little 11-12 yr old girls as their bodies prepare for the huge structural and metabolic changes - no wonder they all start dropping out around the age of 13/14; who wouldn't?

RayCun

Enduro wrote: »

If kids should be kept open to all disciplenes (which I agree with), should that not include longer distances as well?

Just like to repeat that the kids do run cross country, and that is pretty long

Ultrapussy wrote: »

And exactly how do 'you' as a parent and coach train good running form, Ray? Drills and plyometric exercises?

Drills yes, plyometrics no, not for 11 year olds.

All the things you complain about - do you think introducing 5k races to the mix will improve them? Or if kids are being worked too hard, would 5k races not add to that problem?

Overflow

Chivito550 wrote: »

11 year olds should not be running 5k races IMO. By all means sign him up with an athletics club and let him try out all the various disciplines, and he'll find the ones that he likes the most. 11 year olds should be running 100s and 800s, and jumping into sand, leaping over a bar, and throwing a spear as far as possible, not slogging it out through miles.

Why ?

Notwork Error

RayCun wrote: »

I think one point you're missing is that children are not just shorter adults.

If we were talking about 20 year old beginner runners and arguing about the best way to prepare them for a shot at qualification to the 2028 Olympics, the situation would be different. But kids can do things that adults can't, and can't do other things that adults can. They are more flexible, have better reactions, and are better learners than adults, but they are much weaker.

Never said they weren't different and that's why I said the focus should be on running aerobic and not focusing on intervals. Kids are weaker than adults and that's an argument for why they shouldn't be focusing on running intervals and be more focused on easy running at that age if they like middle distance or long distance. It's more about cardio strength than intervals and kids have great cardio strength but not much anaerobic strength. Regulary out testing long term adults in Vo2max tests which while they may be useless as a predictor of performance, are a great predictor of overall health and strength in the heart and lungs.



Chivito- you picked me up completely wrong. If the kids want to throw, sprint or run middle or long distance, they should and they should try all events as I hve already said a few times in this thread. The debate I'm having with Ray is why kids should/shouldn't run long distance. Nothing to do with sprinting or throws. I was merely discussing why I disagreed that running long distance ruined kids which I think is a valid debate.

You seem to think that they shouldn't and have said so already, am I not allowed to share my thoughts on the subject if I think differently. You are ruling something out which is not what I've done. I'm debating the case to why I see long slow running as a better training method to middle and long distance runners. Not discouraging them from actually running middle distance. I clearly said that training long and slow could be better for young kids who ran over MD or over as they will not be specialised in a couple of years and can go up or down more easily.

Ultrapussy

RayCun wrote: »

Drills yes, plyometrics no, not for 11 year olds.

All the things you complain about - do you think introducing 5k races to the mix will improve them? Or if kids are being worked too hard, would 5k races not add to that problem?

You say that you train-in good running form using drills. What type of drills? High knees, butt kicks, skipping etc?

If 5k's were added on top of the 'things' then yes, it would compound the problem. If, however, kids are doing aerobic activities and are not getting into distress, then this is perfectly fine. In fact, the window of opportunity for aerobic development is between the ages of 8 and 12 (give or take a few days). Of course, aerobic development should be appropriately monitored and fun should be the 'guvnor'. A weekly session of relaxed strides would take care of speed development, especially if the kids are playing other sports/doing other activities that combat the problems of muscular imbalances that come with athletics.

It's a complex area and needs addressing. Too many of the few kids that come into athletics (at way too young of an age) are being driven out of the sport (at an age when they should be just starting) because the sport is mismanaged and by extension, miscoached.

Chivito550

Overflow wrote: »

Why ?

Maybe read through the thread.

Ososlo

Enduro wrote: »

If kids should be kept open to all disciplenes (which I agree with), should that not include longer distances as well?

I know in my day there was no sporting outlet for a slow-twitcher like me. Everything (athletics and ball-sports) was all about speed and sprinting, which put me off all of them (as I was crap, having less speed than almost everyone). It would have been nice to have had the opportunity to try out longer distance running (never done at my school), and would probably have gotten me into athletics a lot earlier.

god I couldn't agree with you more. I wish wish wish running hadn't all been about going out at 100% effort from the off. I hated running with a passion due to the fact that my poor little lungs and legs were in a world of pain within about 10 seconds of every race we did.
Memories still haunt me....

sorry, back on topic...

Chivito550

Ososlo wrote: »

god I couldn't agree with you more. I wish wish wish running hadn't all been about going out at 100% effort from the off. I hated running with a passion due to the fact that my poor little lungs and legs were in a world of pain within about 10 seconds of every race we did.
Memories still haunt me....

sorry, back on topic...

Your lungs should not be in agony after 10 seconds. 10 seconds is pretty much 100% anaerobic. You'd only feel it afterwards over such a short distance.

I assume you are referring to how kids run all distances. Just pelt it from the gun and try hang on. Kids will do this over 5km too. If you let them run 10km they'd still go out at suicidal pace. This is just how they run. It's stupid, but they are kids, they can't help but go like the clappers.