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Innocent victims of Ireland's gangland.
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Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, the government should let the cops take back the streets.
There'd be too much paperwork. Just using the pepperspray comes with a ton of paper and a possible GSOC referral.RedemptionZ wrote: »A lot of sensationalism ITT. Ireland doesn't have a big gun problem, and using admittedly tragic and often horrific killings as examples of gun crime is disingenuous because while they never should have happened, they are isolated incidents.
If the issue of legality of drugs was sorted out we wouldn't have any of these killings, money is what drives these gangs, if the money wasn't there to be made they'd be out of luck. And then all they'd really have would be robbery, which is far easier to police.
The issue is sorted out. Drugs are illegal. That's how it stands. What you mean is "if the issue of drugs was fundamentally changed" but that's just an excuse. Drugs aren't a necessity. Nobody needs them to live their life. If you decide to use them then that's your choice but don't act like you don't consciously contribute to murder when you do so.0 -
You don't usually fight fire with fire. Water, or that powdery stuff on oil or electricity. Fire usually causes more fire. Except in forest fires where they burn off vegetation ahead of the fire to starve it of fuel, I suppose.Gun crime is claiming innocent victims and our garda arrive on the scene with a little bottle of pepper spray and a baton. That is why these Scumbags have no fear, even if they get caught in the act these guys fire at garda, like that officer that was killed in Louth.
The armed response unit are too small and not effective enough. I know people will say " oh look at America they are armed and gun crime is through the roof " . That has nothing got to do with armed police, that's the stupid gun laws that let any dope carry.
There needs to be a deterrent, these scum run the streets and laugh at our police force because the Scumbags have more weapons than the national police.
Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, the government should let the cops take back the streets.0 -
Titzon Toast wrote: »He was caught apparently. He got locked up for something else though.
Yeah 14 years i think.Wonder will he get out in 7 or 8 on TR or will they 'do a Gilligan' on him and make him serve every last day that they can legally detain him?0 -
Who shot him?harry Bailey esq wrote: »Yeah 14 years i think.Wonder will he get out in 7 or 8 on TR or will they 'do a Gilligan' on him and make him serve every last day that they can legally detain him?0
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At least Limerick seems to have quietened down a bit in recent years, Gardai did good work in hounding the likes of the McCarthy Dundons and Keane Collopys. The problem is that there is a never ending supply of new gurriers from these estates who'll fill the vacuum. It must be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in certain areas and keep them away from gangs.0
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I think it often works like this. Big criminal gives drugs to small criminal on credit. Small criminal has drugs confiscated or gets high on his supply or otherwise doesn't get the cash together to pay for said drugs and thus owes big criminal more money than he can afford to pay. Big criminal says he will cancel debt if small criminal kills other criminal that owes money or otherwise doesn't respect his authority. Small criminal shoots other criminal to prevent himself suffering same fate.
Also constant supply of cocaine might be a factorDEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »At least Limerick seems to have quietened down a bit in recent years, Gardai did good work in hounding the likes of the McCarthy Dundons and Keane Collopys. The problem is that there is a never ending supply of new gurriers from these estates who'll fill the vacuum. It must be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in certain areas and keep them away from gangs.0 -
Melissak, if you read some very bad newspapers, then yes, that's how it happens.0
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Do you not think so. How else would relatively small time criminals be so stupid as to kill each other, ruining two lives. I know some people are stupid, others may have seen reservoir dogs too many times but more gun crime than england? I hope there is coersion or puppet mastering or i think we're in serious trouble. What do you think is the cause?I think it often works like this. Big criminal gives drugs to small criminal on credit. Small criminal has drugs confiscated or gets high on his supply or otherwise doesn't get the cash together to pay for said drugs and thus owes big criminal more money than he can afford to pay. Big criminal says he will cancel debt if small criminal kills other criminal0
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Yes. So if drugs were legal and controlled this part of the problem would be reduced. Tip of the iceberg i know but this cant go on. This way is not working.
,whisky_galore wrote: »People want drugs, plain and simple, and they don't know or don't care where they come from.0 -
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If the gardai and politicians like that numpty Finian Mc grath would take their heads out of their holes and stop focusing on law abiding sports shooting enthusiasts in their crusade against "gun crime":rolleyes::rolleyes:..and put the focus on where the problems really lie..then maybe just maybe we could get our streets back again, but as long as the focus is firmly diverted onto the most law abiding section of the community thats not going to happen:mad:0
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Yes. So if drugs were legal and controlled this part of the problem would be reduced. Tip of the iceberg i know but this cant go on. This way is not working.
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It might. But the black market for cigarettes, alcohol, laundered fuel, counterfeit goods and stolen goods is very robust so I don't see why drugs would be much different, espeically if they were taxed.If the gardai and politicians like that numpty Finian Mc grath would take their heads out of their holes and stop focusing on law abiding sports shooting enthusiasts in their crusade against "gun crime":rolleyes::rolleyes:..and put the focus on where the problems really lie..then maybe just maybe we could get our streets back again, but as long as the focus is firmly diverted onto the most law abiding section of the community thats not going to happen:mad:
What nonsense are you on about? Can you point to one single use of Garda operational resources that target law abiding gun owners?0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »It might. But the black market for cigarettes, alcohol, laundered fuel, counterfeit goods and stolen goods is very robust so I don't see why drugs would be much different, espeically if they were taxed.
That is true, maybe wouldn't have the amount of small time hoods and middle men to carry out 'dirty work' for the big guys and the drug-fuelled violence that comes with that though.0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »
What nonsense are you on about? Can you point to one single use of Garda operational resources that target law abiding gun owners?
Having seen your comment above, I'm guessing that you aren't a licenced firearm owner as you would know that what was said isn't nonsense.
At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.
The Gardai aren't satisfied with that and want legal firearms ownership curtailed even more, even though legal guns aren't being used to commit crimes. The Gardai have proposals with the DOJ/Minister at present trying to get very draconian legislation put in place to take firearms out of the hands of law abiding, fully licenced and vetted target shooters.
The Minister has a committee in place at the moment weighing up whether to leave things as they are or to implement the draconian changes that the Gardai want.
Another waste of Garda resources was that in the last few years, the Gardai have been incorrectly refusing to renew licences for certain types of firearms. These refusals were challenged in court and the court agreed that approx. 650 of these refusals (90something %) were incorrect and that the Gardai didn't follow the law. These court cases have cost millions. That's a hell of a waste of resources for absolutely nothing.
Tell me this, what good will it do taking firearms from licenced law abiding target shooters when target shooters are taking part in a sport and not going around doing gangland hits?
More focus on scumbags and not sportspeople is what's needed.0 -
BattleCorp wrote: »Having seen your comment above, I'm guessing that you aren't a licenced firearm owner as you would know that what was said isn't nonsense.
At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.
The Gardai aren't satisfied with that and want legal firearms ownership curtailed even more, even though legal guns aren't being used to commit crimes. The Gardai have proposals with the DOJ/Minister at present trying to get very draconian legislation put in place to take firearms out of the hands of law abiding, fully licenced and vetted target shooters.
The Minister has a committee in place at the moment weighing up whether to leave things as they are or to implement the draconian changes that the Gardai want.
Another waste of Garda resources was that in the last few years, the Gardai have been incorrectly refusing to renew licences for certain types of firearms. These refusals were challenged in court and the court agreed that approx. 650 of these refusals (90something %) were incorrect and that the Gardai didn't follow the law. These court cases have cost millions. That's a hell of a waste of resources for absolutely nothing.
Tell me this, what good will it do taking firearms from licenced law abiding target shooters when target shooters are taking part in a sport and not going around doing gangland hits?
More focus on scumbags and not sportspeople is what's needed.
It's not about misinterpreting the law, it's about opionion on who should have them and who should not. The courts are prepared to take chance on people the Gardaí are not. Same goes for PSV licences and betting shops. It's not a waste of resources to do this. And the suggested laws are not about taking firearms from people, they are about limiting the type of firearms available.0 -
BattleCorp wrote: »At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.
And this is somehow a bad thing?0 -
Little CuChulainn wrote: »It's not about misinterpreting the law, it's about opionion on who should have them and who should not. The courts are prepared to take chance on people the Gardaí are not. Same goes for PSV licences and betting shops. It's not a waste of resources to do this. And the suggested laws are not about taking firearms from people, they are about limiting the type of firearms available.
It's not about taking chances, it's about the law. The Gardai should apply the law as it is written, not apply it as they think fit or in a way to suit their agenda. Laws are supposed to be the same for everyone, both in applying them and in obeying them.
Your point about people who should not have firearms licences isn't really accurate as the court cases were people going for renewals. In other words, they already had the firearms, were using them for sporting purposes, hadn't been in trouble with the Gardai, and yet the Gardai want to take the firearms from them.
I'd agree with the Gardai taking the firearms from them if they were misbehaving, but they were just going about their sport, causing no harm to anybody.
I'll address your other point about not taking firearms off people, just limiting the type of firearms available. If I have a licenced firearm for target shooting and they ban the firearm, that's the firearm taken from me as I can no longer get a licence for it.
Banning firearms only affects firearms licence holders. Criminals don't bother with licences so banning firearms doesn't affect them.Originally Posted by BattleCorp
At the moment Ireland probably has the strictest licencing criteria for firearms in the European Union.whisky_galore wrote: »And this is somehow a bad thing?
I'm not saying having the strictest firearms laws in Europe is necessarily a bad thing. The Gardai targeting (pardon the pun) law abiding target shooters is a bad thing. They are targeting the most highly vetted, law abiding section of the community by trying to restrict their firearms.
If target shooters were committing crimes, then yes, throw the book at them, but show me where target shooters are committing crimes?0 -
BattleCorp wrote: »It's not about taking chances, it's about the law. The Gardai should apply the law as it is written, not apply it as they think fit or in a way to suit their agenda. Laws are supposed to be the same for everyone, both in applying them and in obeying them.
The law is the same for everyone. And that law grants a power for the Superintendent to make a decision based on all the facts available to him. A court may not agree with his assessment when they look at the application but that does not mean the assessment was wrong.BattleCorp wrote: »Your point about people who should not have firearms licences isn't really accurate as the court cases were people going for renewals. In other words, they already had the firearms, were using them for sporting purposes, hadn't been in trouble with the Gardai, and yet the Gardai want to take the firearms from them.
There's no possible way you can make that claim without access to court records and Garda files for the 650 cases you mentioned. You have to at least put some kind of source for this claim forward. I've been involved in processing firearm applications since the new systems were introduced and I know for a fact that you are wrong.BattleCorp wrote: »I'd agree with the Gardai taking the firearms from them if they were misbehaving, but they were just going about their sport, causing no harm to anybody.
There's more to it than that. If they've developed psych problems, drinking problems or begun associating with criminals then this will be taken into account. So will concerns about their state of mind or the veracity of their claims on the forms. There is also home security to look at. Is the firearm secure at the house or is there a lazy attitude towards that. Some of the applicants just don't bother submitting everything they are supposed to and then end up producing it in court. Exactly what kind of agenda do you think a local Superintendent has for stopping people just having sport? Where's the motivation to do this come from?BattleCorp wrote: »I'll address your other point about not taking firearms off people, just limiting the type of firearms available. If I have a licenced firearm for target shooting and they ban the firearm, that's the firearm taken from me as I can no longer get a licence for it.
That's true. Same problem with drugs.BattleCorp wrote: »Banning firearms only affects firearms licence holders. Criminals don't bother with licences so banning firearms doesn't affect them.
That's completely incorrect. If a Garda stops a person with a firearm then that person can be arrested on the spot if they do not have a licence for it. In a free for all system, you can't do much about the gun until it kills someone. In Ireland you can take it from them beforehand. I suggest you Google firearm seizures for this year, particularly that one a few weeks ago. Tell me how many sports hobbiest you find in the news having their guns seized.0 -
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Little CuChulainn wrote: »The law is the same for everyone. And that law grants a power for the Superintendent to make a decision based on all the facts available to him. A court may not agree with his assessment when they look at the application but that does not mean the assessment was wrong.
If the law is the same for everyone, why does one Superintendent licence a certain type of firearm and then the Superintendent in a different district won't licence that same type of firearm? I'm talking about blanket bans in certain districts, I'm not talking about dodgy applicants. Some Supers will licence moderators for hunting, some won't. It's a postcode lottery at the moment when it comes to firearms applications.
Plus, a lot of information on Pulse is incorrect. Regarding firearms thefts, the Pulse figures released to the Minister included gun safes, telescopic sights, airsoft guns etc. Lots of things that aren't firearms to bulk up the figures.
I had two guns registered to me that I didn't even own.There's no possible way you can make that claim without access to court records and Garda files for the 650 cases you mentioned. You have to at least put some kind of source for this claim forward. I've been involved in processing firearm applications since the new systems were introduced and I know for a fact that you are wrong.
Many members of my target shooting club were in the batch of 158 that went to the High Court. Every single one of them were renewals, not new applications.
I haven't all the details to hand at the moment but I'll pm them to you when I have them.There's more to it than that. If they've developed psych problems, drinking problems or begun associating with criminals then this will be taken into account. So will concerns about their state of mind or the veracity of their claims on the forms.
If a person suffered from the above problems, the firearms should be taken from them immediately, and not when the firearm is due for renewal.
I would completely agree with a person having their firearm removed if they suffered from the above. But if this was the case, why were their centrefire pistol refused and their other guns not refused?There is also home security to look at. Is the firearm secure at the house or is there a lazy attitude towards that.
We all have to obey the secure accommodation rules. We have to have BS7558 gunsafes and some of us must have monitored alarms and cameras.
Again, if somebody wasn't keeping their firearms in the safe, then yes, refuse them the licence. This wasn't the case.Some of the applicants just don't bother submitting everything they are supposed to and then end up producing it in court.
I don't think that this applies much to renewals. If an applicant didn't supply all the relevant details, would you not just tell him that this section isn't filled in or that section needs to be filled in? Would that not solve some problems?Exactly what kind of agenda do you think a local Superintendent has for stopping people just having sport?
Where's the motivation to do this come from?
Brooks doesn't like handguns and this has filtered down to his subordinates, that's just my opinion based on what he said in court.
That's completely incorrect. If a Garda stops a person with a firearm then that person can be arrested on the spot if they do not have a licence for it. In a free for all system, you can't do much about the gun until it kills someone. In Ireland you can take it from them beforehand. I suggest you Google firearm seizures for this year, particularly that one a few weeks ago. Tell me how many sports hobbiest you find in the news having their guns seized.
Google is a big place. Tell me what I'm supposed to be looking for.0 -
That's completely incorrect. If a Garda stops a person with a firearm then that person can be arrested on the spot if they do not have a licence for it. In a free for all system, you can't do much about the gun until it kills someone. In Ireland you can take it from them beforehand.
I agree with this, if you think somebody is likely to misuse the gun. I'm talking about renewals being refused from upstanding, law abiding members of the target shooting community.
If a target shooter breaks the law, fire the book at him. If he is a law abiding citizen who gives no reason for concern, why is he being targeted?
My point about banning guns only really affects licence holders is that if guns were banned, us law abiding target shooters would give up our guns.
The criminals wouldn't.
The new proposals in front of the Minister/Committee would seize a lot of guns from sports hobbiests.0 -
BattleCorp wrote: »If the law is the same for everyone, why does one Superintendent licence a certain type of firearm and then the Superintendent in a different district won't licence that same type of firearm? I'm talking about blanket bans in certain districts, I'm not talking about dodgy applicants. Some Supers will licence moderators for hunting, some won't. It's a postcode lottery at the moment when it comes to firearms applications.
So it's an issue you have with your own local Super. Maybe you have a point but that hardly equates to Gardaí and politicians targeting decent gun owners to the detriment of society.BattleCorp wrote: »Plus, a lot of information on Pulse is incorrect. Regarding firearms thefts, the Pulse figures released to the Minister included gun safes, telescopic sights, airsoft guns etc. Lots of things that aren't firearms to bulk up the figures.
I'm not sure what your point is here. What information are you talking about?BattleCorp wrote: »I had two guns registered to me that I didn't even own.
Again, I'm not exactly sure what point you are getting at here. PULSE records can be incorrect but generally they are correct.BattleCorp wrote: »Many members of my target shooting club were in the batch of 158 that went to the High Court. Every single one of them were renewals, not new applications.
I'm not sure why you are making an issue of them being renewals and not new applicants. The most recent information is reviewed for each renewal. A renewal is effectively a new application in that regard.BattleCorp wrote: »If a person suffered from the above problems, the firearms should be taken from them immediately, and not when the firearm is due for renewal.
But that is when this information is reviewed. Unless you are suggesting Gardaí have unlimited access to your medical records with some kind of alert system in place.BattleCorp wrote: »I would completely agree with a person having their firearm removed if they suffered from the above. But if this was the case, why were their centrefire pistol refused and their other guns not refused?
Who are you talking about? You are clearly referring to specific cases and extrapolating them to the whole country.BattleCorp wrote: »We all have to obey the secure accommodation rules. We have to have BS7558 gunsafes and some of us must have monitored alarms and cameras.
And some people don't. Some avoid the inspection until the decision date is passed and then blame the Gardaí for not coming out.BattleCorp wrote: »Again, if somebody wasn't keeping their firearms in the safe, then yes, refuse them the licence. This wasn't the case.
Again, you are referring to a few specific cases and extrapolating them to the whole country.BattleCorp wrote: »I don't think that this applies much to renewals. If an applicant didn't supply all the relevant details, would you not just tell him that this section isn't filled in or that section needs to be filled in? Would that not solve some problems?
It would if they then filled it in and submitted it after.BattleCorp wrote: »Brooks doesn't like handguns and this has filtered down to his subordinates, that's just my opinion based on what he said in court.
Brooks who?BattleCorp wrote: »Google is a big place. Tell me what I'm supposed to be looking for.
Firearm seizures not related to firearms use.0 -
For Forks Sake wrote: »Making scrotes proficient in weaponary on the states dime probably isn't going to work out well as a long term solution
Yeah lad, thread's five years old there.0 -
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