Audi R8 E-Tron 90 Kwh Battery Charges @150 Kw !

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2015/06/close-up-audi-r8-e-tron-powertrain-video.html

I want it !

Just imaging if the Leaf could charge at 150 Kw ?

Look at the Chassis pics, it seems insane the way they mounted the battery, it's essentially a converted ICE R8. They put most of the battery where the big V8 would normally be.

The Model S battery is part of the Chassis and looks so much more professionally designed and constructed !!!

samih

First thought is that weight distribution looks far from ideal, 40:60. Wonder how it handles compared to the V10-model let along the V8? Just goes to show how beneficial it is to have a purpose built platform like Tesla's for an EV.

I'd say the design was purely down to cost, they're not going to sell many so why bother designing a whole new car ? all they have to do is modify it for the electric drive train.

Dexter1979

Capabilities are limited by the infrastructure. Currently no 150kW chargers around and there won't be for a while.

Nice car though :-)

nokia69

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Capabilities are limited by the infrastructure. Currently no 150kW chargers around and there won't be for a while.

Nice car though :-)

Tesla are at 120kW now and 135 is coming soon, so 150kW is not that far away, thats not much good to Audi of course

anyway this just looks like another vapourware concept from Audi I doubt we will see it on the road anytime soon

Dexter1979

Dexter1979 wrote: »

Capabilities are limited by the infrastructure. Currently no 150kW chargers around and there won't be for a while.

Nice car though :-)

This makes me wonder, faster DC charging is without doubt the future so why not install 100 Kw + chargers in the first place ? probably cost.

Dexter1979

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This makes me wonder, faster DC charging is without doubt the future so why not install 100 Kw + chargers in the first place ? probably cost.

Perhaps.

Most of the Chademo infrastructure in the EU is 50kWh. Think Norway has 80kWh and 100kWh is starting to appear there. Older ones will still work, thankfully.

BoatMad

I cant see a future in larger and larger batteries that have to be recharged from home or the side of the road. Surely the interchangeable battery is the way to go. then instead of pulling into an Esso or a Topaz, you d see Varta or Exide, automated battery swap, credit card , and away you go.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I cant see a future in larger and larger batteries that have to be recharged from home or the side of the road. Surely the interchangeable battery is the way to go. then instead of pulling into an Esso or a Topaz, you d see Varta or Exide, automated battery swap, credit card , and away you go.

No one is going to invest in the infrastructure. You have to buy all the batteries to swap and that would cost a fortune. A company called better placed tried and failed. And renault scrapped the Fluence EV because of it, or more because the fools decided not to include fast charging with the car. The Fluence EV was designed for battery swapping.

The future is larger batteries and faster DC charging, 90 Kwh such as in the E-tron would give about 340 miles range in the Leaf I do feel this is quiet excessive. 200 miles with 5 min to 80% would suit most people just fine.

Larger batteries need a faster charging infrastructure.

You'll have the Diesel fans here on Boards blabber on about refusing to buy an ev unless it has 500 miles range, so you won't keep everyone happy.

Nissan is rumoured to offer multiple size batteries with Leaf II. So you can pick what suits you best with what you can afford. I don't think I would want or need anything beyond 200 miles.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No one is going to invest in the infrastructure. You have to buy all the batteries to swap and that would cost a fortune. A company called better placed tried and failed. And renault scrapped the Fluence EV because of it, or more because the fools decided not to include fast charging with the car. The Fluence EV was designed for battery swapping.

The future is larger batteries and faster DC charging, 90 Kwh such as in the E-tron would give about 340 miles range in the Leaf I do feel this is quiet excessive. 200 miles with 5 min to 80% would suit most people just fine.

Larger batteries need a faster charging infrastructure.

You'll have the Diesel fans here on Boards blabber on about refusing to buy an ev unless it has 500 miles range, so you won't keep everyone happy.

Nissan is rumoured to offer multiple size batteries with Leaf II. So you can pick what suits you best with what you can afford. I don't think I would want or need anything beyond 200 miles.

I think a 200-250 mile range at motorway speeds in all wind conditions with the usual accessories running , would be sufficient

but the idea that larger and larger batteries can be charged say at home is nonsense

for example if you diverted 7Kw/h from your home supply ( which is upwards of 50%) , you take 28 hours to recharge a 200Kw/h battery , assuming perfect linear charge profile and 100% energy conversion. Thats probably not attainable

so unless we're all going to look for 3-phase supplies, how will this work

ps I picked a high Kw/h to illustrate the issue with larger battery trends, even at 100 Kw/h the idea of recharging from a 13A socket is just laughable

samih

Yeah, it starts to look like Nissan didn't pick up the current battery size from the hat after all. Owning a 85 kWh Tesla without a three phase supply and/or nearby supercharger station sounds like a complete waste of time.

With an ESB supplied 3 kW EVSE it would take over 24h to fully charge it after a long trip.

Charging a 100 Kwh battery from a 7 Kw supply wouldn't be an issue. You'd just do it over 4-5 nights on night rate leccy. 4-5 nights from empty that is.

100 Kwh is about 340-380 miles in the Leaf at that efficiency. A large heavy 100 Kwh battery wouldn't be as efficient because of the weight.

A lot of people don't want to plug a car in every night either so the big battery will solve that also.

I reckon Leaf II will have no more than 40 Kwh usable. Good for about 140-170 miles range. Certainly plenty for me. I'd take that and faster charging, if they could get it to 10 mins for 80% would be really sweet provided the infrastructure keeps up. Faster cold battery charging would also be welcome.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Charging a 100 Kwh battery from a 7 Kw supply wouldn't be an issue. You'd just do it over 4-5 nights on night rate leccy. 4-5 nights from empty that is.

100 Kwh is about 340-380 miles in the Leaf at that efficiency. A large heavy 100 Kwh battery wouldn't be as efficient because of the weight.

A lot of people don't want to plug a car in every night either so the big battery will solve that also.

I reckon Leaf II will have no more than 40 Kwh usable. Good for about 150-170 miles range. Certainly plenty for me.

hmm. what happens if you need the range the following morning.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

hmm. what happens if you need the range the following morning.

Fast charge the night before stick it on the home charger for the rest.

The fast chargers will charge a much larger battery at a higher current for longer meaning you get more range faster.

I highly recommend anyone building a new house or renovating to install 3 phase, I'm not a fan of Very high current single phase because it's a lot less efficient. An EV will always be more efficient charging on 3 phase in the first place.

A lot of people don't think electrics are the future but they are and 2 EV's charging at 7 kw is beyond most house supplies capabilities.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Fast charge the night before stick it on the home charger for the rest.

The fast chargers will charge a much larger battery at a higher current for longer meaning you get more range faster.

sooo. you fast charge , then drive home, lets say that leaves u at 20%,

your going to put in the remaining 80% from a 13A plug ?????

the physics make this whole idea increasingly improbable as battery capacity grows

If you drive more than 350 miles with a 100 Kwh battery in 2 days then no this won't come from a 32 amp 7 Kw home EVSE this is where ultra fast charging will help.

I don't think many people will do this kind of mileage regularly but it's up to the ESB to start planning because in 2017 when the 200+ mile electrics appear 50 Kw won't be fast enough. + we need a lot more fast chargers.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

sooo. you fast charge , then drive home, lets say that leaves u at 20%,

your going to put in the remaining 80% from a 13A plug ?????

the physics make this whole idea increasingly improbable as battery capacity grows

That's a question faced by Tesla owners at the moment. Most of them have 85kWh batteries and most fit 22kW home chargers. They go home... battery basically flat and they charge 55km of range for every hour of charging. So they come out to the car after 8 hours of sleep and the battery isn't totally full but they have 440km more range than when they pulled up.

The question is not if I arrive home will I have a full battery in the morning... it's will I have either enough to reach work OR enough to reach the rapid charger. Unless you are over at least 400km a day (which is ten times the average distance almost anyone in Ireland does) you won't hit the rapid charger at all.

My only question when I've been driving for maybe four five hours and 170-180km around Dublin and feel like heading down to my place in Tipp for the night or another unplanned trip is do I have enough juice to reach a rapid. And my battery is only 22 kWh.

Rapid charging is only required when you are exceeding the range of your vehicle in one day. I don't understand where there would be a problem. You don't freak out if the fuel tank of your ICE isn't full every morning, just that it has enough fuel to get you where you want to go.

Near as dammit 0% of EV owners charge on a 13A plug in regular use, heck most cars don't even include such a thing (on the leaf it's an €800 option).

BoatMad

The question is not if I arrive home will I have a full battery in the morning... it's will I have either enough to reach work OR enough to reach the rapid charger. Unless you are over 400km a day (which is ten times the average distance almost anyone in Ireland does)

is it , if the question applies to people commuting where they are using an appreciable amout of charge in the working day, and assuming they have not been able to get to a fast charger , my understanding too is that the Esb roadside are 22Kw 3 phase so thats not too bad.

I mean I doubt its practicable to have to ring the boss to say you'll be 6 hours late or get up at 4am to reach a fast charge point , that still takes an appreciable amount of time to recharge

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

is it , if the question applies to people commuting where they are using an appreciable amout of charge in the working day, and assuming they have not been able to get to a fast charger , my understanding too is that the Esb roadside are 22Kw 3 phase so thats not too bad.

I don't commute in my EV. Almost all my journeys are unplanned. I still do more than 50,000km a year. I've done 12,000km since the end of March on my i3 and more than that on my Leaf. If I want to go somewhere I just go. I'm heading for London for a long weekend on Thursday night, I have my UK access cards and a rough idea of some of the chargers.

BoatMad wrote: »

I mean I doubt its practicable to have to ring the boss to say you'll be 6 hours late or get up at 4am to reach a fast charge point , that still takes an appreciable amount of time to recharge

If you are going from Malin to Mizen head (basically one of the longest practicable journeys possible in Ireland) your en-route charging time in a Leaf (which is only going to reduce with larger batteries) is between 1 hour 10 minutes and 1 hour 40. The only reason you would be on a 22kw along the way is if a rapid charger or two were broken.

I don't understand what situation you could be in that you'd be six hours late that wouldn't affect any other car or why you would get up at 4AM to reach a rapid (unless you were already going to get up at 4:30 and were going 500km+)

BoatMad

I don't understand what situation you could be in that you'd be six hours late that wouldn't affect any other car or why you would get up at 4AM to reach a rapid (unless you were already going to get up at 4:30 and were going 500km+)

so lets say you have a 100Kwh battery , because you've got that advanced comfortable exec-u-saloon

you get home and you're at 10%, since you cant recharge the car enough too reach ones workplace , you now have to plan to reach the nearest fast charger , which at 22Kw is still going to take a few hours . Hence your up at 4am

This is what I see as the fallacy of home charging , unless we can all have fast chargers at home, which is a very unlikely case as its requires 3-phase. then battery size will be limited as will the range and activities the car can support

BoatMad

The only reason you would be on a 22kw along the way is if a charger was broken.

what chargers are you assuming

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

so lets say you have a 100Kwh battery , because you've got that advanced comfortable exec-u-saloon

you get home and you're at 10%, since you cant recharge the car enough too reach ones workplace

Because you work more than 400-500km away? Because you'd need to for that to be a problem. You will charge 440km of range in 8 hours on your home 22kW. I have a home 22kW charger in Ireland... Three phase isn't magic or even expensive to fit, many homes in Germany and France have three phase.

BoatMad wrote: »

, you now have to plan to reach the nearest fast charger , which at 22Kw is still going to take a few hours . Hence your up at 4am

Nearest rapid charger... which for a 100kWh battery containing saloon will be 135-150kW not 22kW and take around 30-60 minutes to give you a full charge. But more likely you only need to reach your destination so you stop the charge when you have enough and hit the road, like all of us from Leaf owners to Model S owners do right now. The CCS connector on my car can take 150kW and my battery can charge 5C continuous and 7C peak. The european Tesla superchargers (which there will a number of in Ireland this year) use 15 11kW chargers (the same as the ones in the Model S) to reach 135kW (at the moment limited in software to 120kW due to a thermal issue in the "pump").
You only stop at a 22kW long enough to get enough juice to reach the next rapid which is usually less than 25km and at worst 40km away. That will mean a delay of at worst half an hour.

BoatMad

Because you work more than 400-500km away? Because you'd need to for that to be a problem. You will charge 440km of range in 8 hours on your home 22kW. I have a home 22kW charger in Ireland... Three phase isn't magic or even expensive to fit, many homes in Germany and France have three phase.

In germany and france that is because homes are supplied with it, In Ireland its extremely difficult if you are not in the right place. ( and expensive ).

BoatMad

Nearest rapid charger... which for a 100kWh battery containing saloon will be 135-150kW not 22kW and take around 30-60 minutes to give you a full charge. But more likely you only need to reach your destination so you stop the charge when you have enough and hit the road, like all of us from Leaf owners to Model S owners do right now. The CCS connector on my car can take 150kW and my battery can charge 5C continuous and 7C peak. The european Tesla superchargers (which there will a number of in Ireland this year) use 15 11kW chargers (the same as the ones in the Model S) to reach 135kW (at the moment limited in software to 120kW due to a thermal issue in the "pump").
You only stop at a 22kW long enough to get enough juice to reach the next rapid which is usually less than 25km and at worst 40km away. That will mean a delay of at worst half an hour.

I agree that rapid ( fast) or supercharging is necessary , and my point that in Ireland , Home charging will be useless unless you can get 3-phase, which the network cannot supply to many domestic installations.

hence the reliance on third party supercharger points

NOW, and this was my next point, you'll ultimately be charged and I suspect over time the price will rise to near petrol pricing !!!

remember when nuclear energy was launched in the UK, electricity wont be metered as it was going to be so cheap, how'd that work for them !

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

In germany and france that is because homes are supplied with it, In Ireland its extremely difficult if you are not in the right place. ( and expensive ).

Now... and not because it's inherently more than 10-15% more expensive than a single phase installation. But because it's a special order and you have to bear the cost of bringing three phase from the substation to your pole. If it was the standard install (and it will be) those additional costs won't apply.

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree that rapid ( fast) or supercharging is necessary , and my point that in Ireland , Home charging will be useless unless you can get 3-phase, which the network cannot supply to many domestic installations.

Even though the majority of Model S owners go 3 phase there is a sizable minority using single phase 7.4 - 11 kW chargers. They seem perfectly happy. Because it's your repeated daily usage that matters, not the capacity of the pack. if you did an average of less than 200km a day you'd be fine on single phase. You can also have single phase supplies from ESB up to 29 kW, increased amperage.

BoatMad wrote: »

hence the reliance on third party supercharger points

By a tiny inconsequential minority of people who'd have the choice of paying about €3-5k to permanently solve that problem, i.e. a fraction of their annual savings on fuel given their mileage.

BoatMad wrote: »

NOW, and this was my next point, you'll ultimately be charged and I suspect over time the price will rise to near petrol pricing !!!

For rapid charging? probably at most you'll pay €2 plus 25c per kWh. That's significantly more than those on commercial rapid charging networks in Norway pay (where i might add 30% of new cars sold are electric). Rapid charging costs don't really matter because your use of them is only occasional. You'll always pay less than petrol because the electricity to charge your car is relatively easy to create and no different from the electricity you use to run your oven. Electricity prices including the current VAT and excise would have to go up more than 800% to equal current petrol prices, in which case you could buy petrol and run a generator, it will still be cheaper than using it to run an ICE. Solar PV in Ireland (south of the M7) is already cheaper per watt than the main grid even though we have no grants or export tariff, so if electricity went up by even 25% you'd pay for the panels on your roof in savings in less than five years.

BoatMad wrote: »

remember when nuclear energy was launched in the UK, electricity wont be metered as it was going to be so cheap, how'd that work for them !

That was advertising. I use math and real world examples. This might also help:


Charging time for 100 km of BEV range Power supply Power Voltage Max. current
6–8 hours Single Phase 3.3 kW 230 V AC 16 A
3–4 hours Single Phase 7.4 kW 230 V AC 32 A
2–3 hours Single/Three Phase 11 kW 230/400 V AC 40/16 A
1–2 hours Three Phase 22 kW 400 V AC 32 A
20–30 minutes Three Phase 43 kW 400 V AC 63 A
20–30 minutes Direct Current 50 kW 400–500 V DC 100–125 A
10 minutes Direct Current 120 kW 300–500 V DC 300–350 A
8 minutes Direct Current 135 kW 300–500 V DC 300–350 A

If We're fortunate enough to build new or renovate I'll be installing 3 phase, more than 1 EV charging at 32 amps + house consumption is a lot of power. My house for instance has a capacity of about 15 Kw , the main fuse is rated for 63 amps so you'd probably be at a safe maximum with 2 ev's charging off peak without the washing machine or dishwasher etc.

Bosch have designed 20 Kw CCS DC chargers

http://insideevs.com/bmw-launches-new-low-cost-dc-fast-chargers-6458/

No reason there can't be the equivalent ChaDeMo , if they were cheap enough they could be installed at home on 3 phase of course.

But who would need this kind of charging at home ? who will really drive more than 200 odd miles a day ?

The 100 Kw battery can charge slowly over 2-3 nights on night rate on a 32 amp connection.

Even a 50 % charge will carry you a significant distance and top up at a super charger on route. Hardly a big deal, it's just getting ICE owners that won't change over this mental range barrier.

I drive 140 kms a day commuting which imo is too much and I'd love a job closer to home but that won;t happen, the Government don't see the need to have proper jobs outside of Dublin. I don't see many people needing more than a real 200 miles range if you can top up in 20-30 mins and rather than see big expensive heavy batteries 80-100 Kwh I would much rather see 60 Kwh as a good maximum and ultra fast charging. 60 Kwh would give about 210-250 miles @ 3.5 Miles/Kwh.

The Model S can recharge 170 miles in 30 mins. So this enables you to leave home and 280 miles later plug in for 30 mins for another 170 miles total 450 miles how can people want more ?

BoatMad

my own questions come from facing a 200Km round trip commute, which I see as too close to the limits of current EVs

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Now... and not because it's inherently more than 10-15% more expensive than a single phase installation. But because it's a special order and you have to bear the cost of bringing three phase from the substation to your pole. If it was the standard install (and it will be) those additional costs won't apply.

That is the situation as it now stands, and in some places the ESB cannot supply 3 phase at all.

Even though the majority of Model S owners go 3 phase there is a sizable minority using single phase 7.4 - 11 kW chargers. They seem perfectly happy. Because it's your repeated daily usage that matters, not the capacity of the pack. if you did an average of less than 200km a day you'd be fine on single phase. You can also have single phase supplies from ESB up to 29 kW, increased amperage.

hmm, Ive seen fuses streched to 80A on a single phase, Ive never seen 126A , pics or it didn't happen.

For rapid charging? probably at most you'll pay €2 plus 25c per kWh.

are you saying a 100Kwh, providing say 300Km range could cost €200, >> given a unit currently is around 22 cents ??

Solar PV in Ireland (south of the M7) is already cheaper per watt than the main grid even though we have no grants or export tariff, so if electricity went up by even 25% you'd pay for the panels on your roof in savings in less than five years.

different argument, but right now , no " green" micro energy solution makes commercial sense, I can buy a huge amount of electricity for the capital sums involved

BoatMad

The Model S can recharge 170 miles in 30 mins. So this enables you to leave home and 280 miles later plug in for 30 mins for another 170 miles total 450 miles how can people want more ?

Because until you have the stated range under ALL circumstances, wind on the nose, motorways speeds, Aircom ,climate control on, all gadgets powered up and head lights etc , people will want more.

when I get 300 miles from an EV in all those circumstances and a reasonable network of superchargers , its the time of the EV.

ps: "how can people want more"
IBM once stated that the world could be satisfied with 5 computers !!!!!

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

hmm, Ive seen fuses streched to 80A on a single phase, Ive never seen 126A , pics or it didn't happen.

http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/commercial-downloads/ESB-Networks-Statement-of-Charges.pdf
Page 5 - Special Connection - Single Phase 29kVa

I have a quote I got from ESB networks including build documentation for a 29kVa installation before I decided to stump up for three-phase for my country place. My city apartment is 20kVa as it feeds a pair of 7.4 kW chargers in the underground car park.

BoatMad wrote: »

are you saying a 100Kwh, providing say 300Km range could cost €200, >> given a unit currently is around 22 cents ??

No I'm saying that the combination of electric motor and battery is so efficient that per/unit electricity prices would have to rise by that much for an ICE to cost more to run. I'm also including maintenance, because I worked back from annualized cost of ownership based on my actual records including OBDII fuel economy data and per charger energy monitors for my Avensis 2.0 D4D, Nissan Leaf and BMW i3. Comparison is based on mileage alone which may slant it slightly in favor of the ICE as I have more of a lead foot in an EV. On the other hand the weight of a 100kWh equipped EV is likely to be up to 1000kg more than my current EVs which based on the model S would increase power consumption by as much as 40%. So given margins of error... somewhere between 400% and 800% increase in the price of electricity.

A unit of electricity is not 22 cents. I pay 7.4 cents. Almost all EV charging is done at night when wholesale power hovers around the 4c/kWh mark.

BoatMad wrote: »

different argument, but right now , no " green" micro energy solution makes commercial sense, I can buy a huge amount of electricity for the capital sums involved

Nonsense. Solar PV is now the cheapest method of producing electricity.
In Ireland you can take 10% off the insolation numbers in northern Spain, but that doesn't matter because price per kWp has dropped by 80% since 2008. That means that an installation that was financially viable in Spain was usually viable in Ireland an average of nine months later due to capital costs reducing for the panel.
That's why there's a series of large 100% privately funded Solar PV plants planned starting at a site in Cork despite no grant aid and no guaranteed feed-in tariff (unlike wind, which currently costs between three and five times the price of Solar PV (and I'm speaking against my own interest because I own commercial wind generation capacity))
Roof based Solar PV with the capital costs spread over 10 years yield a per kWh price of production in Ireland (south of the M7) of around 5.5 to 5.6 cents per kWh.
Twice today including a 5 hour period stating 08:00 to 12:00 (coinciding with PV peak production) the unsubsidised and exise duty paid wholesale market price of electricity on the island of Ireland was over 7 cent per kWh. http://www.sem-o.com/Pages/default.aspx & http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/market-pricing

Here's the trend in price of solar PV vs LNG, Coal and Oil (original from OECD/IEA, their sources in the image):



And price are only going to drop:

BoatMad wrote: »

my own questions come from facing a 200Km round trip commute, which I see as too close to the limits of current EVs

You'd be perfectly fine with the smaller battery Tesla model S at 160km/h with the aircon up full and a gale force headwind. With a 10 minute rapid charge

BoatMad wrote: »

Because until you have the stated range under ALL circumstances, wind on the nose, motorways speeds, Aircom ,climate control on,

Yeah... not really a problem. EVs have a lower drop in range over winter than an ICE, people just notice it more because the total range of the low end EVs is so small. With a thermally managed battery (almost every EV bar the Leaf) there is no competition at all, with substantially better range until below the temperature diesel turns into a jelly.
Air con draw is now around 3,000 watts peak and usually 500W sustained these days because heat pumps are more than halving power consumption.

BoatMad wrote: »

all gadgets powered up and head lights etc

These are inconsequential. Headlights for example use max 120W. My primary drive motor on my EV uses peak 125,000W, and a minimum of 13,000W to maintain 100km/h on a pancake smooth road.
A model S draws twice that. Anyone who thinks lights etc perceptibly impact their range is imagining things.

BoatMad wrote: »

when I get 300 miles from an EV in all those circumstances and a reasonable network of superchargers , its the time of the EV.

You stated your commute is 200km round trip. That commute will be easily covered by the Leaf II, Bolt or any Tesla. Why do you need double that? Exceptions to your commute are covered by rapid charging. Honestly who gives a flying fck about stopping at rapid charge for the odd journey when your cost of ownership is eight to ten times less. It's not that bad a trade. In fact since your EV is charged at home overnight you'll actually save time vs. fueling an ICE. It's quite a luxury to fuel your vehicle at home without any real effort.
I do a 212km round trip to my place in Tipp every weekend. If I'm there for two to three hours I don't need to rapid charge to get back to Dublin. Even if I'm only going down to pick something up and go straight back I just rapid charge at Roscrea for a few minutes and catch up on email.
If you actually use 400km daily, your use is an extreme case. The average daily mileage for an Irish vehicle is around 30km.

As I said I do 50 thousand km a year, if I don't have a problem why would you?

BoatMad wrote: »

ps: "how can people want more"
IBM once stated that the world could be satisfied with 5 computers !!!!!

It was the Thomas Watson being taken out of context.

People are always going to want more range... and they are going to get it in time. But for the purposes of discussing power consumption it's their actual use that matters, which I bet won't change that much