How long should a ton of timber last

kah22

Ok I appreciate that a question like that is like asking how long is a piece of string.

However, if you were burning seasoned, but not kiln dried, hardwood timber during the autumn winter months here in Ireland and were burning for in and around six hours a day. How long would you expect it to last?

My reason for asking? I'm doing my sums at the moment to see whether to put in a multi burner or a dedicated wood burner. I'm lucky I do have room to store the timber away from the elements.

Kevin

deandean

Well, here in Dublin I can get a ton of smokeless coal for about the same price as a ton of ash.

Firewood is so over priced here that it's beyond a joke.

Get a multi fuel stove, then you have the choice of fuel.

kah22

deandean wrote: »

Well, here in Dublin I can get a ton of smokeless coal for about the same price as a ton of ash.

Firewood is so over priced here that it's beyond a joke.

Get a multi fuel stove, then you have the choice of fuel.

that's what I'm trying to work out.

Smokeless fuel here in the north, for a multi fuel burner, seems to range in price from £17.50 to £24.00 per 50 kg bag ( delivered) I'm assuming in the winter months I'd get through a bag and some every week

I can buy a ton of seasoned hardwood timber from a large timber merchant for about £70 per ton, but no delivery. But that's not a major problem. How long would it last that's the problem


Kevin

lakesider

kah22 wrote: »

that's what I'm trying to work out.

Smokeless fuel here in the north, for a multi fuel burner, seems to range in price from £17.50 to £24.00 per 50 kg bag ( delivered) I'm assuming in the winter months I'd get through a bag and some every week

I can buy a ton of seasoned hardwood timber from a large timber merchant for about £70 per ton, but no delivery. But that's not a major problem. How long would it last that's the problem


Kevin

ill give you my take on it..I have a stanley erin multi fuel stove and was palnning on running her on coal and wood blocks, im in Donegal btw..I bought a tractor trailer of logs for 150 euro and was planning on starting the stove with coal then running her on wood for the rest of the eveining, I used up the logs in 60 days and figure that they were so overpriced I was better putting the 150 into coal, never mind the carrying and the stacking etc...logs are so way overpriced its a racket..

kah22

That's two saying 'overpriced' but let me push you a bit Lakesider.

You bought a tractor load of logs 150 Euro and that lasted about 8 weeks? So we're talking about 18 euro a week? I appreciate that's not counting your time

So how much would coal on its own have cost you over the same period?

What sort of wood were you burning: hardwood, softwood, seasoned or green?

At the moment I have a multi burner in one room. I bought a big of seasoned hardwood to test what it burns like. Maybe my logs were to big but I didn't get a decent flame last night. I'll go back to the hardwood tomorrow and make them smaller. I've been reading they should be about 30 cm long about 10 cm in diameter. We'll see what that produces

I've just lit my fire now and am burning timber dry softwood I had around the house. There's a good flame and its throwing out plenty of heat

dathi

kah22 wrote: »

that's what I'm trying to work out.

Smokeless fuel here in the north, for a multi fuel burner, seems to range in price from £17.50 to £24.00 per 50 kg bag ( delivered) I'm assuming in the winter months I'd get through a bag and some every week

I can buy a ton of seasoned hardwood timber from a large timber merchant for about £70 per ton, but no delivery. But that's not a major problem. How long would it last that's the problem


Kevin

hardwood has 4.1 kwh per kilo
soft wood has 3.5 kwh per kg
coal has 8.8 kwh per kg
smokeless ovoids 8.8 kwh per kg
so coal gives out twice the heat per kg as hardwood

CelticRambler

Different climate, different financials and different measurements, but in a typical winter I burn about 6 cubic metres over four winter months (Dec-Mar). That's running the stove 24/7 for about two months. If I remember the figures correctly, 6 cu.m of seasoned oak is about 4t. I'll let you adjust the calculation to your own situation.

Calahonda52

if this is about the math for the most efficient bang for your energy spend then you would chose the most efficient burning mechanism, so maybe oil or gas or LPG etc at maybe 90% efficiency
If you move down the efficiency ladder to mutifuel, then you are maybe at 67% max, with perfect fuel.

Then you look at the kWh per euro and as pointed out above wood is half the energy value and thats assuming kiln dried.

Based on that yes wood here is over priced because its more a yummy mummy/daddy/tree hugger/doing good fro environment idea rather than cold calculated math.

Its over priced, full stop.

In europe what I pay 350 euro for is 60 euro stacked in your garage.

The one benefit it has is that timber is more amenable to being burned in smaller amounts on warmer days because if you dont burn the coal properly, with enough air then the kWh go up in smoke

my3cents

kah22 wrote: »

that's what I'm trying to work out.

Smokeless fuel here in the north, for a multi fuel burner, seems to range in price from £17.50 to £24.00 per 50 kg bag ( delivered) I'm assuming in the winter months I'd get through a bag and some every week

I can buy a ton of seasoned hardwood timber from a large timber merchant for about £70 per ton, but no delivery. But that's not a major problem. How long would it last that's the problem


Kevin

I get all my timber for free but I have to collect it. So I've factored in the price of putting a tow bar on the car and the price of a trailer. Trailer and tow bar cost was about €1000 and that should last at least 4 years so I reckon my heating costs as €250 plus petrol. Trailer is a little smaller than I'd like (takes 1/2 tonne) but its convenient as I can store it tipped up on its end to save space.

kah22

my3cents wrote: »

?..I get all my timber for free.....

lucky you. Hardwood or softwood?

my3cents

kah22 wrote: »

lucky you. Hardwood or softwood?

Softwood so I use a lot of it say 15-20 loads a year. I stock up during the summer when no one else is interested in it and leave everyone else to fight over it during the winter when the yard that produces it almost shuts down.

macjohn

I find insert stove gets through timber very fast if only using timber so a "ton" wouldn't last that long.

But put the timber on a bed of coals and 3 decent sized logs last at least 90mins. (Before it gets really cold I use brown coal/union nuggets )

kah22

macjohn wrote: »

?...put the timber on a bed of coals and 3 decent sized logs last at least 90mins. (Before it gets really cold I use brown coal/union nuggets )

What kind of stove have you: a wood burner or a multi burner.

I ask because a lot of advice say in a wood burner burn wood only BUT a number of others, including stove retailers, say 'a little bit of coal in a wood burner is OK.

The two stoves I'm looking at is the Varde Arua 11 or the Morso S 10-40 both of those are classified as wood burners

Kevin

my3cents

One thing we are forgetting here is how big the stove is and how much space its heating plus of course is it water and rads. <already been asked.

SCOL

I'm the same I stack up in the summer, I get it free cut 2 or 3 wheel barrows at the weekend during the summer and I'm all set for the winter. I also have a stack of pallets at work so I can work on them also. My only cost is petrol and a 2nd hand chain saw. I don't care if it hard or soft wood I get it for free and I get lots of it. I can't pass a skip without looking into it and asking is it ok to pull out a few lenghts it all helps last year I got 1/2 skip of oak flooring asked could I take it cut it all up it lasted about 4 months.

Calahonda52

SCOL wrote: »

I also have a stack of pallets at work so I can work on them also.

Have you ever wondered why pallets don't rot?

It is because they are treated with some of the most toxic preservative known to man.

They were never designed to be in the consumer chain.

The sawdust is also toxic.

It is illegal to burn them as the flue gases are carcinogenic.

You need a licence for the EPA to burn them.

my3cents

SCOL wrote: »

I'm the same I stack up in the summer, I get it free cut 2 or 3 wheel barrows at the weekend during the summer and I'm all set for the winter. I also have a stack of pallets at work so I can work on them also. My only cost is petrol and a 2nd hand chain saw. I don't care if it hard or soft wood I get it for free and I get lots of it. I can't pass a skip without looking into it and asking is it ok to pull out a few lenghts it all helps last year I got 1/2 skip of oak flooring asked could I take it cut it all up it lasted about 4 months.

Not many people seem to have that attitude here in Ireland. As far as I'm concerned if it looks like wood and burns like wood it is wood, doesn't matter if it has 6 inch nails sticking out of it or even 10 coats of paint it still burns. Although I try not to burn painted wood or chipboard.

OP the stoves you have listed are WOOD burning ONLY. More of a decor item than anything else. If you have a stove like that then you really do need to burn good quality logs and definitely not coal.

You can normally spot a multifuel stove by the way it has a good riddler in the bottom, a wood burner doesn't even need a grate although many now have some form of grate.

Only checked the Morso but it only takes 33cm logs thats 13-14 inches max. Traditionally logs are cut at 12 inch and 16 inch lengths and I wouldn't get a stove that didn't take 16 inch logs (18 inch fire box). It just takes more effort to cut and stack 12 inch logs so they can be more expensive.

SCOL

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why pallets don't rot?
It is because they are treated with some of the most toxic preservative known to man.
They were never designed to be in the consumer chain.
The sawdust is also toxic.
It is illegal to burn them as the flue gases are carcinogenic.
You need a licence for the EPA to burn them.

I have a stove so all the "Toxic fumes" goes up the flue. I also get my hands on a few trees, If it wood it will burn also telegraph pole are great aswell.

kah22

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why pallets don't rot? .........It is illegal to burn them ....

except on the Twelth Night.

my3cents

Pallets do rot. When they do they leach the toxins into the soil, however the chemicals used are nothing like as toxic as they used to be. If old broken pallets are taken to the local tip (recycling depot) they get taken away again by people for fire wood so you might as well burn them yourself.

CelticRambler

my3cents wrote: »

OP the stoves you have listed are WOOD burning ONLY. More of a decor item than anything else. If you have a stove like that then you really do need to burn good quality logs and definitely not coal.

...

Only checked the Morso but it only takes 33cm logs thats 13-14 inches max. Traditionally logs are cut at 12 inch and 16 inch lengths and I wouldn't get a stove that didn't take 16 inch logs (18 inch fire box). It just takes more effort to cut and stack 12 inch logs so they can be more expensive.

Not sure I agree with the "decor item" part of the above, but the rest yes. My usage above relates to a stove with an output of 2-3 times either of those. I'm working my way through a supply of free oak and cut it to between 40 and 55cm, about 15-25cm diameter for winter use. Anything smaller than that gets thrown in the spring/autumn pile for a "fast" burn.

My stove is wood-burning only (charcoal as an option, coal is a definite no-no), and when fully loaded, you wouldn't stand/sit within a metre of it. However, it's the only source of heat for a house where winters get down to minus ten. Having got used to that kind of performance, I find it hard to understand why my siblings bother with a fire/stove at all when they've got central heating.

kah22

my3cents wrote: »

....OP Only checked the Morso but it only takes 33cm logs thats 13-14 inches max. Traditionally logs are cut at 12 inch and 16 inch lengths and I wouldn't get a stove that didn't take 16 inch logs (18 inch fire box). It just takes more effort to cut and stack 12 inch logs so they can be more expensive.

log size, never thought of that.

From the Varde website
Length 25-30cm
Diam (max) 10cm
Quantity 3-4 logs (1.7kg)

How does that sound?

CelticRambler

As my3cents pointed out, at that size, it's a lot more cutting and stacking. If you're cutting them yourself, get an electric circular log-saw or you'll spend as much again on petrol, chain-oil and sharpenning and go mad in the process.

1.7kg isn't much. Is this the only heat source in the room and/or are you counting on it to heat any other rooms? Makes a big difference.

my3cents

Twelve inches as a log length is short. My experience would be of cutting logs for several families and smaller logs take more effort to produce and need more handling. You normally cut about 2 inches shorter than the maximum width or depth of the stove whichever is greater.

The output of the Morso is 5Kw which is about as low as you can go with a wood burner thats still a lot of heat and obviously you can can running it at a lower output.

One reason I used the term Deco stove was if you don't run it for maximum burn its very likely the glass will need a lot of cleaning to keep it looking good. Shut down for a long burn and the glass soots up even with a "clean burn" feature. Add to that if you haven't burnt solid fuel before you won't realise how much dust that can add to the house. Hence sometimes the stoves don't get as much use as originally intended. I can't remember the exact specs you also need a noncombustible base that extends about a foot out in front of the stove.

deandean

kah22 wrote: »

except on the Twelth Night.

Now there's an idea, threaten the EPA on them, that'l put the fear of God into them hey :pac:

dathi

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have you ever wondered why pallets don't rot?

It is because they are treated with some of the most toxic preservative known to man.

They were never designed to be in the consumer chain.

The sawdust is also toxic.

It is illegal to burn them as the flue gases are carcinogenic.

You need a licence for the EPA to burn them.

pallets are heat treated in the eu

BarryD

For OP, we run a Waterford Erin multi fuel stove with back boiler, house c 150 sq mtrs, 12 single panel radiators of various lengths. Also a small stove with no boiler in a sitting room. Had them in over a dozen years now and per year, burn approx 35 x 40kg bags of Country Blend and 15 x 40kg bags of anthracite plus firewood which can collect for free, enough to fill a small woodshed. Depending on amount of firewood I'd cut, might use a little less coal. So about €900 a year for space heating and water in winter months. Cost of coal is climbing, not least with carbon taxes. As a rule of thumb, I'd reckon on a scuttle of coal a day, a half scuttle anthracite and a good armful of logs.

If we were to run the stoves completely on timber, I'm pretty certain we wouldn't get the same heat and would burn 3-4 times the amount of firewood - lot more work!!

CelticRambler

my3cents wrote: »

One reason I used the term Deco stove was if you don't run it for maximum burn its very likely the glass will need a lot of cleaning to keep it looking good. Shut down for a long burn and the glass soots up even with a "clean burn" feature. Add to that if you haven't burnt solid fuel before you won't realise how much dust that can add to the house. Hence sometimes the stoves don't get as much use as originally intended.

Agree entirely with all of that.

"Should I fit a stove" wasn't part of the original question, but there's a lot more to the decision than the cost of the wood.

FWIW, no-one's mentioned gas-effect fires - they can give out a huge amount of heat when you need it, mostly look as good as a real stove and have none of the mess or hard labour.

lakesider

kah22 wrote: »

That's two saying 'overpriced' but let me push you a bit Lakesider.

You bought a tractor load of logs 150 Euro and that lasted about 8 weeks? So we're talking about 18 euro a week? I appreciate that's not counting your time

So how much would coal on its own have cost you over the same period?

What sort of wood were you burning: hardwood, softwood, seasoned or green?

At the moment I have a multi burner in one room. I bought a big of seasoned hardwood to test what it burns like. Maybe my logs were to big but I didn't get a decent flame last night. I'll go back to the hardwood tomorrow and make them smaller. I've been reading they should be about 30 cm long about 10 cm in diameter. We'll see what that produces

I've just lit my fire now and am burning timber dry softwood I had around the house. There's a good flame and its throwing out plenty of heat

your forgetting that I started the stove with a bucket of coal, then over the evening she was topped out with wood..it took 3 euro of wood per night and the heat output would drop due to wood not being as good as coal..if I simply had added 3 euro of coal it would have been the same job with greater heat output...then factor in all the work with wood..running ten rads btw..

Jack180570

Dathi, the energy content of firewood depends on it's moisture content. At the same moisture content, softwood has a higher energy content than hardwood.
You are however correct in saying that in general, 1kg of coal = 2kg of dry firewood.

dathi wrote: »

hardwood has 4.1 kwh per kilo
soft wood has 3.5 kwh per kg
coal has 8.8 kwh per kg
smokeless ovoids 8.8 kwh per kg
so coal gives out twice the heat per kg as hardwood

Jack180570

Wood isn't particularly cheap in Germany /Austria. ... recently was comparing prices in c/kWh and the German firewood was more expensive. .. depends on where in Ireland you are and the quantity you are buying.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

if this is about the math for the most efficient bang for your energy spend then you would chose the most efficient burning mechanism, so maybe oil or gas or LPG etc at maybe 90% efficiency
If you move down the efficiency ladder to mutifuel, then you are maybe at 67% max, with perfect fuel.

Then you look at the kWh per euro and as pointed out above wood is half the energy value and thats assuming kiln dried.

Based on that yes wood here is over priced because its more a yummy mummy/daddy/tree hugger/doing good fro environment idea rather than cold calculated math.

Its over priced, full stop.

In europe what I pay 350 euro for is 60 euro stacked in your garage.

The one benefit it has is that timber is more amenable to being burned in smaller amounts on warmer days because if you dont burn the coal properly, with enough air then the kWh go up in smoke

kah22

Doing some Googling tonight I came across a product called 'Hotties,' a product made from compressed wood chips, sawdust, and it would seem suitable for a glass fronted wood burner. There also appear to be other such logs but 'Hotties' seem the most popular. From what I've managed to read it would seem that while the upfront price is more expensive because of their consistency they may prove more economical if buying a yearly supply

Then I thought Bord na Móna and wondered if they did any products like a manufactured log suitable for wood burning stoves.

Now I must admit I was thinking turf when I discovered they do a product called Eco Logs which seems to be the same sort of thing as Hotties - sawdust, compressed wood of some kind.

Anyone on the Forum know anything about them - effectiveness, how long they burn, heat put out, that sort of thing. Price, well I suppose that will be different in various part of the country, I live in the north.

Would love to hear the views of anyone who has tried them

Chime y cleaned yesterday. Testing seasoned logs today

my3cents

kah22 wrote: »

Doing some Googling tonight I came across a product called 'Hotties,' a product made from compressed wood chips, sawdust, and it would seem suitable for a glass fronted wood burner. There also appear to be other such logs but 'Hotties' seem the most popular. From what I've managed to read it would seem that while the upfront price is more expensive because of their consistency they may prove more economical if buying a yearly supply

Then I thought Bord na Móna and wondered if they did any products like a manufactured log suitable for wood burning stoves.

Now I must admit I was thinking turf when I discovered they do a product called Eco Logs which seems to be the same sort of thing as Hotties - sawdust, compressed wood of some kind.

Anyone on the Forum know anything about them - effectiveness, how long they burn, heat put out, that sort of thing. Price, well I suppose that will be different in various part of the country, I live in the north.

Would love to hear the views of anyone who has tried them

For us Eco Logs burn far too hot. Fine if you only burn say a max of two at a time but you'd get six in our fire but that would start a melt down.

Definitely good heat also burns quicker than decent dry hardwood.

kah22

Price? Worth buying in bulk?

When I buy the stove will probably be 5kw

dathi

Jack180570 wrote: »

Dathi, the energy content of firewood depends on it's moisture content. At the same moisture content, softwood has a higher energy content than hardwood.
You are however correct in saying that in general, 1kg of coal = 2kg of dry firewood.

yes it was late when i posted and i just pulled the figures of the seai website without explaining them

my3cents

kah22 wrote: »

Price? Worth buying in bulk?

When I buy the stove will probably be 5kw

Honestly no idea what price they are in bulk but they are convenient. I would however like to see them burning in one of those steel morso stoves before I used them because they do get very very hot almost comparable to coal. If you were to start a fire walk away and then forget to turn it down with a few eco logs on it I'd want to know it wouldn't do any damage before buying a lot of them.

Rossdburke

lakesider wrote: »

ill give you my take on it..I have a stanley erin multi fuel stove and was palnning on running her on coal and wood blocks, im in Donegal btw..I bought a tractor trailer of logs for 150 euro and was planning on starting the stove with coal then running her on wood for the rest of the eveining, I used up the logs in 60 days and figure that they were so overpriced I was better putting the 150 into coal, never mind the carrying and the stacking etc...logs are so way overpriced its a racket..

I know this is an old post, but....
That works out about €2.50 A day.
The same as I use in a multi fuel stove, which is burning approximately 20 hours a day in the winter.

€.75 per litre
X 4 litres per hour
X 20 hours
You're talking €60 oil per day....
Even half the hours of oil is €30 per day....

Personally, I find hardwood logs the way to go...

Wearb

Rossdburke wrote: »

I know this is an old post, but....
That works out about €2.50 A day.
The same as I use in a multi fuel stove, which is burning approximately 20 hours a day in the winter.

€.75 per litre
X 4 litres per hour
X 20 hours
You're talking €60 oil per day....
Even half the hours of oil is €30 per day....

Personally, I find hardwood logs the way to go...

Ridiculous assumptions.

Latro

Rossdburke wrote: »

I know this is an old post, but....
That works out about €2.50 A day.
The same as I use in a multi fuel stove, which is burning approximately 20 hours a day in the winter.

€.75 per litre
X 4 litres per hour
X 20 hours
You're talking €60 oil per day....
Even half the hours of oil is €30 per day....

Personally, I find hardwood logs the way to go...

4liters x 20 hours x 10kWh(heat energy content per liter) x 0.8(efficiency)= 640kWh of heat energy

Do you realize that it would be unbearable to live in that house with that amount of heat pumped in during 20h period? That amount of energy would be enough for 1 week at least. Also the heat would impossible to distribute around the house without back boiler.

IMO logs are only viable if you get them for free or very close to it.

Rossdburke

Latro wrote: »

4liters x 20 hours x 10kWh(heat energy content per liter) x 0.8(efficiency)= 640kWh of heat energy

Do you realize that it would be unbearable to live in that house with that amount of heat pumped in during 20h period? That amount of energy would be enough for 1 week at least. Also the heat would impossible to distribute around the house without back boiler.

IMO logs are only viable if you get them for free or very close to it.

I don't use oil at all. We've an 18kw boiler stove which we burn logs 90% of the time. Very rarely would we use coal.
The point I was trying to make is that €2.50 A day or €17.50 a week for logs to have a fire burning approximately 20hrs a day in winter , is cheap IMO....

Latro

Rossdburke wrote: »

I don't use oil at all. We've an 18kw boiler stove which we burn logs 90% of the time. Very rarely would we use coal.
The point I was trying to make is that €2.50 A day or €17.50 a week for logs to have a fire burning approximately 20hrs a day in winter , is cheap IMO....

Can you tell us how much those €2.50 logs weigh and more or less how dry they are? Hardwood or softwood?

Rossdburke

Latro wrote: »

Can you tell us how much those €2.50 logs weigh and more or less how dry they are? Hardwood or softwood?

Only buy hardwood , the last few loads was birch. Generally cut down the year previous. Not kiln dried.
Once the fire gets going , we close down the vents. Not sure of the exact weight of the logs, trailer load would be about 2.5 to 3 ton skip / builder bags or there abouts

Latro

Rossdburke wrote: »

Only buy hardwood , the last few loads was birch. Generally cut down the year previous. Not kiln dried.
Once the fire gets going , we close down the vents. Not sure of the exact weight of the logs, trailer load would be about 2.5 to 3 ton skip / builder bags or there abouts

How long would it take for you to go through this amount of wood?

Rossdburke

Latro wrote: »

How long would it take for you to go through this amount of wood?

similar to the person in the post I originally replied to....
€150 worth would last 60 to 70 days of the fire going 20hrs a day in the winter...

fergus1001

macjohn wrote:

I find insert stove gets through timber very fast if only using timber so a "ton" wouldn't last that long.

restrict the airflow your using your stove wrong

an open fire should use more fuel than a stove