"To our Children"

Spencer Winterbotham

That was the toast that was made at a business dinner I was at recently. The Boss raised his glass.. "A toast to our children"... Problem is I don't have any children or a significant other for that matter... Out of a group of ten men ( I am a man) all around the same age (mid 30s) I was the only one without child...

It got me thinking about relationships, marriage and children..

I would really like to have children (soon) but I am horrified by the idea of marriage. Horrified. Statistically half of them end in divorce and the man, in most cases, has everything to loose. I work extremely hard which is probably the reason why I am single but it has afforded me a good life. I'm quite comfortable now and if things keep going the way they are I should be financially secure soon.

The idea of signing a contract with someone whereby they will receive half of everything I have worked so hard for if it goes wrong does not appeal to me.... and it has a 50/50 chance of going wrong.

The last few women I have dated were not impressed with my philosophy in life, but I tired to explain that I still wanted to meet someone, fall in love, buy a house together, have some beautiful children, grow old together and die in each other arms... just never get married..

The reason I am posting in the ladies lounge?

I want to know what you fine ladies think when you are weighting up the prospect of starting a family with a man?

If you were mid 30s and wanting to have children and fell in love with a guy who ticked all the boxes but just refused point blank to ever get married but wanted everything else (house, kids etc,,) would it be a deal breaker for you?

When it comes to children you'd be in a worse position without marriage
The cohabitation rules would mean you could lose out also if it ends badly, afaik.


Half of them do not end in divorce, the rate is less than 10% in ireland

Spencer Winterbotham

bluewolf wrote: »

When it comes to children you'd be in a worse position without marriage
The cohabitation rules would mean you could lose out also if it ends badly, afaik.


Half of them do not end in divorce, the rate is less than 10% in ireland

So women obviously looks at the odds of failure also...

I think my stats are from the UK... we can't be that far behind though.

Only when myths from the states are being quoted at us and the truth is a quick google away
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/divorce-irish-style-1.2068656
If you're going to base your outlook on the divorce rates, you might as well get them right first

sullivlo

Depends on the woman tbh. We're not all the same.

Personally if I had kids I'd like to get married for their security. However I've a friend in a LTR with kids who will never marry.

MrWalsh

You're in a worse position unmarried with the Cohabitation Act. Especially in relation to the children.

I must say you have a very low opinion of women. I am the higher earner in my marriage and if we divorced it would be me who risked losing more financially.

Guess you never thought that women could earn as much or more than men eh?

Your stats on divorce are also wrong.

If your approach on marriage is that it's just a risk to your bank account then you don't really understand what marriage is.

Spencer Winterbotham

MrWalsh wrote: »

You're in a worse position unmarried with the Cohabitation Act. Especially in relation to the children.

I must say you have a very low opinion of women. I am the higher earner in my marriage and if we divorced it would be me who risked losing more financially.

Guess you never thought that women could earn as much or more than men eh?

Your stats on divorce are also wrong.

If your approach on marriage is that it's just a risk to your bank account then you don't really understand what marriage is.

Ok Ok hands up... I got the stats wrong. I'm living the UK at the moment. Please see their stats from the Guardian. Like I said we won't be far behind.

• There were 13 divorces an hour in England and Wales in 2012
• Women were granted 65% of all divorces
• 9,703 men and 6,026 women aged over 60 got divorced
• One in seven divorces were granted as a result of adultery
• 719 (less than 1%) divorces were granted because of desertion
• The average age at divorce was 45 for men and 42 for women
• 9% of couples divorcing had both been divorced before
• 48% of couples divorcing had at least one child aged under 16 living with the family
• It is expected that 42% of marriages will end in divorce

That still pretty bad odds....

Spencer Winterbotham

MrWalsh wrote: »

You're in a worse position unmarried with the Cohabitation Act. Especially in relation to the children.

Who is? The woman or the higher earning man?

sullivlo

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

Who is? The woman or the higher earning man?

The man ain't always the higher earner... But usually the courts will side with a woman on custody etc, regardless of salary.

sullivlo

You also have less rights in the eyes of the courts as an unmarried father.

goldlocks10

How can you think of marriage when you have not meet someone? If you meet someone ye may or may not get married. Maybe try meet someone first and see what happens?

sullivlo

goldlocks10 wrote: »

How can you think of marriage when you have not meet someone? If you meet someone ye may or may not get married. Maybe try meet someone first and see what happens?

I think it's the institution of marriage he fundamentally disagrees with.

What if your potential bride signed a prenuptial agreement OP, that said you wouldn't lose half your livelihood, would you marry then?

eviltwin

I'm a stay at home mum, my husband works. I personally don't earn the money but I think given the sacrifice I have made in staying home to be a full time carer to our kids more than entitles me to the household income. Its really depressing that the contribution a stay at home parent makes is always seen as nothing and of no value. I'd be highly insulted if my husband thought of me like that.

Stheno

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

So women obviously looks at the odds of failure also...

I think my stats are from the UK... we can't be that far behind though.

We are in terms of divorce rates
I married someone who over time, earned eight times less than I did

We split up, they got spousal maintenance of close to a grand a month until they got a job, got to stay in the family home, while I moved out and rented a less fancy place.

Sound familiar to you?

We'd no kids and I'm female

Stheno

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm a stay at home mum, my husband works. I personally don't earn the money but I think given the sacrifice I have made in staying home to be a full time carer to our kids more than entitles me to the household income. Its really depressing that the contribution a stay at home parent makes is always seen as nothing and of no value. I'd be highly insulted if my husband thought of me like that.

In seperation/divorce court that contribution is taken into account

Spencer Winterbotham

I fully accept there are many couples where the woman is the higher earner. My own mother far out earned my father. I get it.

However statistically it is not the norm. Not close.

If a relationship I was in went pear shaped I would not for one minute shirk my responsibilities. I would provide for the woman and the child of course... but on my terms.

As far as I can see once the ring is on the finger the balance of power in the relationship completely shifts to the woman. As can been seen in the above stats 65% of divorce proceeding are brought by women.

When a man is married he knows he has to tow the line or else he will be out of his house and half of everything he owns will be out the window.

Take my situation. I am single and have my own house, mortgage is paid, I earn a high salary. I am also 34 and date women my own age. Woman of my age are not fcuking around, most, not all, wants kids and want to get started pronto. I fully understand that and feel I too need to get a move on the child making department.

I want to start a family but I won't sign a contract with someone entitling them to half of everything I own. I just won't. In the case of my house it would be considered the family home and she would get the lot... if it went pear shaped.

There is no point saying I don't understand what marriage is about I just don't have starry eyed notions and always look at the hard cold numbers.

Stheno

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

I fully accept there are many couples where the woman is the higher earner. My own mother far out earned my father. I get it.

However statistically it is not the norm. Not close.

If a relationship I was in went pear shaped I would not for one minute shirk my responsibilities. I would provide for the woman and the child of course... but on my terms.

As far as I can see once the ring is on the finger the balance of power in the relationship completely shifts to the woman. As can been seen in the above stats 65% of divorce proceeding are brought by women.

When a man is married he knows he has to tow the line or else he will be out of his house and half of everything he owns will be out the window.

Take my situation. I am single and have my own house, mortgage is paid, I earn a high salary. I am also 34 and date women my own age. Woman of my age are not fcuking around, most, not all, wants kids and want to get started pronto. I fully understand that and feel I too need to get a move on the child making department.

I want to start a family but I won't sign a contract with someone entitling them to half of everything I own. I just won't. In the case of my house it would be considered the family home and she would get the lot... if it went pear shaped.

There is no point saying I don't understand what marriage is about I just don't have starry eyed notions and always look at the hard cold numbers.

Statistically research has shown women are more likely to initiate divorce when they earn enough to be independant ergo more divorces initiated by women
with the cohabitatiin rights here you'll be just as affected if you've a child with someone and in a relationship over two years

Providing for your spouse/child will not be on your terms but those determined by a court

eviltwin

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

I fully accept there are many couples where the woman is the higher earner. My own mother far out earned my father. I get it.

However statistically it is not the norm. Not close.

If a relationship I was in went pear shaped I would not for one minute shirk my responsibilities. I would provide for the woman and the child of course... but on my terms.

As far as I can see once the ring is on the finger the balance of power in the relationship completely shifts to the woman. As can been seen in the above stats 65% of divorce proceeding are brought by women.

When a man is married he knows he has to tow the line or else he will be out of his house and half of everything he owns will be out the window.

Take my situation. I am single and have my own house, mortgage is paid, I earn a high salary. I am also 34 and date women my own age. Woman of my age are not fcuking around, most, not all, wants kids and want to get started pronto. I fully understand that and feel I too need to get a move on the child making department.

I want to start a family but I won't sign a contract with someone entitling them to half of everything I own. I just won't. In the case of my house it would be considered the family home and she would get the lot... if it went pear shaped.

There is no point saying I don't understand what marriage is about I just don't have starry eyed notions and always look at the hard cold numbers.

Do you actually want a partner or just a woman to give you kids? You can always adopt and not have the relationship at all.

Spencer Winterbotham

eviltwin wrote: »

Do you actually want a partner or just a woman to give you kids? You can always adopt and not have the relationship at all.

Look I know I sound terribly clinical and cold hearted. I'm not. I'm a normal guy who has been in love in the past and knows what it means to love and be loved.... I'm just not naive.

I am very mindful of how often it does not end well... I have several male friends who are going though or who have come through divorce and they, to a man have been ruined financially.

Stheno

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

Look I know I sound terribly clinical and cold hearted. I'm not. I'm a normal guy who has been in love in the past and knows what it means to love and be loved.... I'm just not naive.

I am very mindful of how often it does not end well... I have several male friends who are going though or who have come through divorce and they, to a man have been ruined financially.

Applies to women too, while I was not ruined financially, I suffered a severe drop in lifestyle

My ex on the other hand did not apart from less disposable income, and is now in a position where he may well buy me out of the house we still jointly own

eviltwin

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

Look I know I sound terribly clinical and cold hearted. I'm not. I'm a normal guy who has been in love in the past and knows what it means to love and be loved.... I'm just not naive.

I am very mindful of how often it does not end well... I have several male friends who are going though or who have come through divorce and they, to a man have been ruined financially.

That's the luck of the draw...anyone who gets into a relationship is taking a chance. We all know people who are having a tough time of it but equally I'm sure you know plenty of people who are happy don't you? I'm with my husband over 20 years now, we had our first child within a year of going out, we're still happy, we still are best mates. I would hate to think he's going around in fear of what happens if we break up, I know I don't think like that. And to be honest I'd hope he feels the biggest loss would be me, not his money. I think its important to be sure the person you are with is the right one if you are going to have a child but you're not going to meet her if you have such a low opinion of women.

Stheno

eviltwin wrote: »

That's the luck of the draw...anyone who gets into a relationship is taking a chance. We all know people who are having a tough time of it but equally I'm sure you know plenty of people who are happy don't you? I'm with my husband over 20 years now, we had our first child within a year of going out, we're still happy, we still are best mates. I would hate to think he's going around in fear of what happens if we break up, I know I don't think like that. And to be honest I'd hope he feels the biggest loss would be me, not his money. I think its important to be sure the person you are with is the right one if you are going to have a child but you're not going to meet her if you have such a low opinion of women.

Agreed I remember doing mediation with my ex and the counsellor saying we had great respect for each other

Several years later we are good friends

fits

want to start a family but I won't sign a contract with someone entitling them to half of everything I own. I just won't. In the case of my house it would be considered the family home and she would get the lot... if it went pear shaped.

Well would you ever do a bit of research and find out that marriage DOES NOT entitle you to half your partners assets. In divorce settlements a partners contribution to household, both remunerated and otherwise is accounted for and as far as I can see is reasonably fair. ( child custody I a different issue) Don't forget that if a woman takes time out to have children she could fall behind on pension payments, career opportunities etc.

Also your opinion of women is low. In my circle two outearn their partner, one is out earned by her partner, and the rest ( about seven highly educated women) have no interest in marriage at all.

MrWalsh

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

When a man is married he knows he has to tow the line or else he will be out of his house and half of everything he owns will be out the window

Clearly you havent got a clue what marriage is about, or even what relationships are about spouting tripe like this. You do understand that divorces are conducted either through mediation or the courts and that in either case the means of both parties is taken into account? Marriage does not entitle a woman to half of anything.

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

Take my situation. I am single and have my own house, mortgage is paid, I earn a high salary.

You sound like you are planning on marrying someone who comes to the world naked in an egg with no assets or earning power. Is your opinion of women really that low? We're not just dolls who look nice.

Neyite

MrWalsh wrote: »

You sound like you are planning on marrying someone who comes to the world naked in an egg with no assets or earning power. Is your opinion of women really that low? We're not just dolls who look nice.

IMO a man who has a low opinion of women will likely attract someone who has a low opinion of men. And both will have the opinion that the other is determined to screw them over in the event of a split so divorce is a self-fulfilling prophecy really.

It says a lot about the OP that he'd consider having children with a woman and take no steps whatsoever to consider them and the rights and responsibilities that come with kids as much as his little hoard of money. But maybe he thinks that that kids are dolls that look nice too.

skallywag

Myself and my other half built a house together and have a child (which was planned). Neither or us are particularly interested in getting married at all. I don't think that it's such a deal breaker these days as it has been historically, though being married can certainly make certain bureaucratic topics more convenient.

lazygal

skallywag wrote: »

Myself and my other half built a house together and have a child (which was planned). Neither or us are particularly interested in getting married at all. I don't think that it's such a deal breaker these days as it has been historically, though being married can certainly make certain bureaucratic topics more convenient.

For inheritance and next of kin rights I'd recommend getting married. If you're not married both areas can cause massive difficulties, like in the case of the pregnant braindead woman before Christmas who's next of kin was her father, rather than her partner and the father of her children.

Spencer Winterbotham

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

I fully accept there are many couples where the woman is the higher earner. However statistically it is not the norm. Not close.

Bear in mind that the main reason for this is because the woman is the only one who can churn out the kids you seem to want without the commitment to the woman.

skallywag

lazygal wrote: »

For inheritance and next of kin rights I'd recommend getting married.

This is indeed a good point, and I must admit that I was ignorant myself until recently on certain aspects of it.

As an example, I had assumed that in the case of my own demise that my daughter would be my default next of kin and would hence inherit my estate by default, in the presence of no will. It seems though that that may not necessarily always be the case. Although such issues can still be formalised without the need to be married, being married does of course make such topics much more convenient and seamless.

MrWalsh

skallywag wrote: »

This is indeed a good point, and I must admit that I was ignorant myself until recently on certain aspects of it.

As an example, I had assumed that in the case of my own demise that my daughter would be my default next of kin and would hence inherit my estate by default, in the presence of no will. It seems though that that may not necessarily always be the case. Although such issues can still be formalised without the need to be married, being married does of course make such topics much more convenient and seamless.

Personally Id be more worried about the things that can happen while I am still living such as someone making medical decisions for me who doesnt share my own ethos in such matters!

skallywag

MrWalsh wrote: »

Personally Id be more worried about the things that can happen while I am still living such as someone making medical decisions for me who doesnt share my own ethos in such matters!

... true, though may not be very relevant in my own case as I doubt that any of my next-of-kin options including those through marriage would hook me up with someone who shares my own particular ethos on such matters :pac:

MrWalsh

skallywag wrote: »

... true, though may not be very relevant in my own case as I doubt that any of my next-of-kin options including those through marriage would hook me up with someone who shares my own particular ethos on such matters :pac:

There was the presumption on my part there that youd marry someone with a similar outlook or who agreed to do what you would wish for in a medical emergency as opposed to my mother (who is now dead) who would have let me be brain dead and rotting so they could save the fetus.

kylith

skallywag wrote: »

Myself and my other half built a house together and have a child (which was planned). Neither or us are particularly interested in getting married at all. I don't think that it's such a deal breaker these days as it has been historically, though being married can certainly make certain bureaucratic topics more convenient.

If neither party wants to get married that's fair enough, but I really cannot stand the way that some men seem to have decided that women only want to get married so that they can bide their time until their husband, who they have been purposefully denying sex as part of a power-play, puts one foot out of line so that they can divorce him and ship him off to the poor house while they live the life of Reilly off of his hard-earned sponds.

Most of us just want a friend and helpmeet who's easy on the eye and shares the same outlook and approach to life, and with whom we can start a family. To me marriage is a commitment more to your children and your family than to your spouse, per se; you're telling your relatives 'This is the person I have chosen to travel through life with me'.

Lux23

But if you meet someone, fall in love, buy a house and have kids then it doesn't matter if you get married, after 3-5 years the other person will have a claim of sorts to your earnings so I think you hatred of marriage is irrational. Not getting married wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but I also think it makes sense to seek the legal protection marriage affords to your kids and to you as a man.

skallywag

kylith wrote: »

... some men seem to have decided that women only want to get married so that they can bide their time until their husband, who they have been purposefully denying sex as part of a power-play, puts one foot out of line so that they can divorce him and ship him off to the poor house while they live the life of Reilly off of his hard-earned sponds...

I think you are right, you certainly do hear such stories get bandied about, though it's often crossed my mind how much of this is actual truth, and how much is either an urban myth or a misconception. I know we see many high profile cases getting attention in the media, but I myself know quite a few couples where the marriage has broken down, and in nearly all cases it has resulted more in the people themselves being completely broken for a period of time rather than one benefiting significantly financially from the break-up.

MrWalsh

skallywag wrote: »

I think you are right, you certainly do hear such stories get bandied about, though it's often crossed my mind how much of this is actual truth, and how much is either an urban myth or a misconception. I know we see many high profile cases getting attention in the media, but I myself know quite a few couples where the marriage has broken down, and in nearly all cases it has resulted more in the people themselves being completely broken for a period of time rather than one benefiting significantly financially from the break-up.

I have seen a number of friends go through divorces and in only one case can I say that the woman in the situation has truly benefited and it is because her ex husband panders to her rather than the legal system putting her in a better position.

pwurple

eviltwin wrote: »

Do you actually want a partner or just a woman to give you kids? You can always adopt and not have the relationship at all.

Not in Ireland he can't. Not many adoptions here for anyone for the last few years.. He'd have to be approved by the adoption board pre-2010. Adoptions are halted.

pwurple

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

Look I know I sound terribly clinical and cold hearted. I'm not. I'm a normal guy who has been in love in the past and knows what it means to love and be loved.... I'm just not naive.

I am very mindful of how often it does not end well... I have several male friends who are going though or who have come through divorce and they, to a man have been ruined financially.

Dude, the answer is simple.

Marry Upwards. Find, woo and marry a woman who has more assets and potential than yourself. Money worries averted.

Shouldn't be a problem, I'm sure you're like gods gift to the wealthy ladies.

Stheno

pwurple wrote: »

Not in Ireland he can't. Not many adoptions here for anyone for the last few years.. He'd have to be approved by the adoption board pre-2010. Adoptions are halted.

Wow what caused that to happen?

pwurple

Stheno wrote: »

Wow what caused that to happen?

Various reasons. Not many domestic adoptions because unwanted irish pregnancies are usually aborted in the uk. Anyone taken into care through abuse/neglect is fostered, not adopted. Foreign children stay in orphanages because of the Hague convention, adoption act of 2010. Basically there is so much red tape, you cannot bring children in here from abroad anymore. The handful of adoptions that do happen tend to be within families. Grandmother adopting a grandchild.

MrWalsh

I would say that there are also less unwanted pregnancies since contraception became widely available and since state support, ie, lone parents and resulting social destigmatisation of unmarried mothers that many born children who would otherwise have been given (taken) for adoption simply stay with their mothers.

meeeeh

Irish Times had feature on why adoptions are gone. I can't remember the details so I will post a link:
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/changes-to-adoption-law-have-shattered-my-hopes-of-becoming-a-parent-1.1716740

Anyway I don't think OP's problem is he doesn't like women, he just likes money more. I find it sad that people are afraid to live their life because of money they most likely won't spend and in the end distant relatives will be squabbling over the will. But hey no-one will get the money while they are alive.

skallywag

pwurple wrote: »

Not in Ireland he can't. Not many adoptions here for anyone for the last few years.. He'd have to be approved by the adoption board pre-2010. Adoptions are halted.

I don't think that's true.

An Irish woman is still entitled to give her child up for adoption if she so wishes.

Of course the instances of that actually happening are growing fewer and more far between in a more lenient modern Irish society.

I think a marriage would secure more for a child, so I'd probably only decide to have a child once I was married - if it broke down I think it would secure more for the child and for the man in access.

But honestly if a man was terrified of getting married, then I would be wary of having a child with the same man.

All this said, I never wanted kids.

johnny osbourne

Spencer Winterbotham wrote: »

That was the toast that was made at a business dinner I was at recently. The Boss raised his glass.. "A toast to our children"... Problem is I don't have any children or a significant other for that matter... Out of a group of ten men ( I am a man) all around the same age (mid 30s) I was the only one without child...

It got me thinking about relationships, marriage and children..

I would really like to have children (soon) but I am horrified by the idea of marriage. Horrified. Statistically half of them end in divorce and the man, in most cases, has everything to loose. I work extremely hard which is probably the reason why I am single but it has afforded me a good life. I'm quite comfortable now and if things keep going the way they are I should be financially secure soon.

The idea of signing a contract with someone whereby they will receive half of everything I have worked so hard for if it goes wrong does not appeal to me.... and it has a 50/50 chance of going wrong.

The last few women I have dated were not impressed with my philosophy in life, but I tired to explain that I still wanted to meet someone, fall in love, buy a house together, have some beautiful children, grow old together and die in each other arms... just never get married..

The reason I am posting in the ladies lounge?

I want to know what you fine ladies think when you are weighting up the prospect of starting a family with a man?

If you were mid 30s and wanting to have children and fell in love with a guy who ticked all the boxes but just refused point blank to ever get married but wanted everything else (house, kids etc,,) would it be a deal breaker for you?

you think too much

pwurple

skallywag wrote: »

I don't think that's true.

An Irish woman is still entitled to give her child up for adoption if she so wishes.

I'm afraid it is true. I know couples who are approved by the adoption board for both domestic and intercountry adoption. They're waiting years, and it looks like it's not going to happen at all. There's no such thing as an irish orphanage anymore. Even the abandoned baby Maria can't be adopted legally I think? It's a life of foster care for her because there is no-one to consent to adoption. Which means she has no legal guardian, so no travel outside the country until she is 18 etc.

And intercountry adoption is a trickle. So on top of the stigma and pain of maybe having gone through numerous IVF treatments, maybe pregnancy losses, infertility, and people flippantly saying "ah sure you can always adopt"... Couples who are ready, checked and "approved" to be parents (which is more than any biological parent was) are now enduring the brick wall of adoption here. Meanwhile children are in orphanages around the world unable to be adopted. It's messed up.

MrWalsh

skallywag wrote: »

I don't think that's true.

An Irish woman is still entitled to give her child up for adoption if she so wishes.

Of course the instances of that actually happening are growing fewer and more far between in a more lenient modern Irish society.

There were 13 domestic adoptions in the last year we have data for (2013 I think). With waiting lists of 1000s wanting to adopt.

An Irish woman can still give her child up for adoption but practically speaking it just doesn't happen anymore.

Neyite

MrWalsh wrote: »

There were 13 domestic adoptions in the last year we have data for (2013 I think). With waiting lists of 1000s wanting to adopt.

An Irish woman can still give her child up for adoption but practically speaking it just doesn't happen anymore.

And of those 13, I think all bar one IIRC, were family adoptions - as in, a relative formally adopting the child or a step-parent formally adopting a child weren't they?

It's been similar figures for several years now.

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a marriage would secure more for a child, so I'd probably only decide to have a child once I was married - if it broke down I think it would secure more for the child and for the man in access.

But honestly if a man was terrified of getting married, then I would be wary of having a child with the same man.

I too would be wary of having a child with someone who didn't want to get married for the reasons in the OP.

What would trouble me is having a child with someone who has entered the relationship with the pre-formed opinion that I am unscrupulous, money-grabbing, and untrustworthy. Why would someone want to be in a relationship if they planned to never commit fully in case their partner wanted their money? Why would anyone want to be in a relationship where they are distrusted and suspected from the beginning? What kind of ideology would a person like that pass on to their children? "Well, son, the reason I won't marry your mother is that if you get married when the woman leaves she gets half your money".

MrWalsh

kylith wrote: »

"Well, son, the reason I won't marry your mother is that if you get married when the woman leaves she gets half your money".

More like "well son if you dont tow [sic] the line then the woman leaves and gets half your money that you worked hard for for yourself and yourself alone - thats what women do".

skallywag

MrWalsh wrote: »

An Irish woman can still give her child up for adoption but practically speaking it just doesn't happen anymore.

I had mentioned earlier that this may be down to our more lenient society these days, where unmarried mothers are not shunned, etc, so more young mothers are now keeping their babies where they would have given them up for adoption in the past. However it just occurred to me that I overlooked something pretty obvious, i.e. many unwanted Irish pregnancies these days are terminated in the UK, etc. I would wonder which factor is the dominant one leading to the lack of babies for adoption these days, perhaps the latter?