SNAs

bobbyss

Just wondering how teachers get on with SNAs.
An invaluable addition to the school community. It is fantastic when the SNA is in tune with you, but does anybody have a working relationship which is not good and which could be improved upon?
Have you ever had conflict? What was the issue? How was it resolved?
What tasks does an SNA do in your classroom. Are there any tasks you would not ask or expect an SNA to do?

mirrorwall14

bobbyss wrote: »

Just wondering how teachers get on with SNAs.
An invaluable addition to the school community. It is fantastic when the SNA is in tune with you, but does anybody have a working relationship which is not good and which could be improved upon?
Have you ever had conflict? What was the issue? How was it resolved?
What tasks does an SNA do in your classroom. Are there any tasks you would not ask or expect an SNA to do?

Um is this a homework assignment? Coz that's what it reads like! This is a discussion forum not an answer all the questions forum. What's your answers to all of the above?

bobbyss

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Um is this a homework assignment? Coz that's what it reads like! This is a discussion forum not an answer all the questions forum. What's your answers to all of the above?

Some teachers do not have a good relationship with SNAs to the detriment of the children. I am interested in hearing about this relationship, about any conflict that there might be and how it was resolved. I don't have answer as such. We have great SNAs in our school but in one or two cases things are not great. One issue we have is an SNA thinking certain tasks are beneath him/her. Water was spilt on the floor in my class and I cleaned it up asap there and then. I have seen a reluctance to engage in such tasks from certain SNAs. This causes strain.

No, it is not a homework assignment. If you have had any similiar experiences that you would like to share then please do.

evolving_doors

WEll just bear in mind that the primary function of the SNA is to look after the physical care needs of the child first and foremost (are they doing this by leaving their station to go and clean up for you?

What is the primary role of the SNA?
Is it not to look after the physical care needs of the child first and foremost ?
Have you checked out the 2007 Guidelines for inclusion of students with special needs (Page 83- HERE.

Do you think the wording of their duties leaves it open to interpretation by using the general catch-all phrase "include tasks of a non-teaching nature such as other duties appropriate to the grade as may be determined by the needs of the pupils and the school from time to time".?

Do you think that the "reluctance to engage in such tasks" is caused by the vague nature of their defined roles?

Do you think that they consider a task as beneath them because there has been no clear markation as to what tasks are theirs?.. so if all else fails they will stick to rule 1 ...i.e. ensure the primary care needs of the child, and hence , stay put.

Say the student who has the SNA apointed to them is out sick for the day, would you send a student out to fetch the SNA to clean up the spilled water?

Personally I think SNA's are put in demanding and psychologically difficult situations when there is no clear discussion around their role and how to deal with being potentially tied to 1 child for 4-6 years. So teacher's aren't clear/the SNA isn't clear as to what is expected, so there's obviously room for tension to arise.

pinkbear

I am a secondary school teacher so have seen lots of SNAs through my classes over the years, mostly all very good at what they do and have great relationships with the staff and students.

However, most of the time, they have very little to do, other than walking a student from one class to another, then having a chat for half an hour in the staff room, and returning to the class to collect the student. On occasions I have asked some of them to do little tasks for me - I realise it's not their job, but when I am flat out running around and they are sitting chatting I ask as a favour, and in general I have found that they do not like to be asked to do these jobs.

For example, they are in school for the whole month of June, with no students to look after. They are very bored and have a stack of magazines on front of them, and they get occasional odd jobs from the office. I was cleaning out my room this week and I asked them if anyone fancied a job tidying some stuff for me. 3 of them helped for 5 minutes then wandered off, and I spent another 4 hours on my own working after that. I am not in a position to ask them to do this work, I know, I just know if it was me I would help someone for hours rather than sit reading magazines.

evolving_doors

I think though they're caught. They don't want to set a precedent of doing 'whatever the teacher asks' (with respect to a genuine request from yourself). Hence by their 'minimal effort' you wont be asking for help again, they;ve set out their position well!

And who would blame them? They don't really know what their role is.. are they under the direction of the teacher? (I don't think so). So therefore they do the tasks set out by the principal or deputy. So as you can imagine this can vary from a totally hands-off approach in one school to being worked to the bone in other schools.

In your situation I don't think it's any way comparable to asking a fellow teacher to give you a hand (even though your intention was that the SNA was a fellow colleague). If one SNA asked another to give them a hand I'd hazzard a guess that they would be more forthcoming with assistance... birds of a feather and all that.

Come to think of it I'd never ask a fellow teacher to help clean my room, nor the maintenance guy either. The fact that they were idle isn't their fault. One SNA told me she was furious that she was made to come in in June because she was left with nothing to do! She wanted to be assigned work to keep her busy.

bobbyss

pinkbear wrote: »

I am a secondary school teacher so have seen lots of SNAs through my classes over the years, mostly all very good at what they do and have great relationships with the staff and students.

However, most of the time, they have very little to do, other than walking a student from one class to another, then having a chat for half an hour in the staff room, and returning to the class to collect the student. On occasions I have asked some of them to do little tasks for me - I realise it's not their job, but when I am flat out running around and they are sitting chatting I ask as a favour, and in general I have found that they do not like to be asked to do these jobs.

For example, they are in school for the whole month of June, with no students to look after. They are very bored and have a stack of magazines on front of them, and they get occasional odd jobs from the office. I was cleaning out my room this week and I asked them if anyone fancied a job tidying some stuff for me. 3 of them helped for 5 minutes then wandered off, and I spent another 4 hours on my own working after that. I am not in a position to ask them to do this work, I know, I just know if it was me I would help someone for hours rather than sit reading magazines.

Thanks for your response pinkbear, I know what you are saying.

I am familiar with this situation. I think one way forward is to have a sit down with SNAs to reach a consensus about expectations.

The response to asking for little tasks is typical. I am not sure exactly how many hours a day SNA are obliged to work as per their contract but in a primary school after the kids go home but if SNAs are allowed to go home before completing their daily hours it would be nice to feel an SNA would engage in those little tasks as a quid pro quo.

I also think the SNAs have to be available at agreed times in summer time for about seven days I think. Now here is a window for flexibility on both parts. The principal may not need all those seven days, imagine they are needed for only the one day and this was agreed to (ie they would have six extra days off a year). But in return it would be nice of the little things were done without the reluctance you mentioned. Management could give a lot in terms of free time only f they are met half way.

seavill

What exactly do you mean by extra tasks? You mentioned cleaning up a spill but what else are you referring to?

evolving_doors

Its not the teacher's place to have a sit down and outline expectations. The primary role of the SNA is to look after the physical care needs of the child... after that then 'other duties' (as outlined in the guidelines) are allocated by the principal. If nothing is forthcoming from the principal then why should an SNA be expected to do any tasks the teacher sees fit?
Id say they are in a precarious enough position so just let them do only what they are told by principal and you carry on doing your own duties.

I always thought it a bit cruel that some SNA's in some schools weren't 'welcomed' into the staffroom... now I can see why, once they are on downtime and sitting in the staffroom then a teacher sees them and thinks "great, theyre doing nothing now so they could be helping me".

I think what you are looking for Bobbyss is a 'classroom assistant' like in the UK, but that is a very different role.

bobbyss

Thanks folks for responses thus far.
I may ask an SNA to distribute some messages to other classes for example. If I need photocopying done and I have not got the time, I ask the SNA. He has no problem with this. He may have a free class. He may be free when kids gone home. He may be very obliging. This is a need that I have that I have discussed with him and that he has agreed to. It's no problem and the working relationship is excellent. Mind you other SNAs may not be so obliging and technicaly I suppose they do not have to engage in that unless they were asked as part of job to do so by principal. (But the principal would not ask them unless it was a need of the teacher or other staff member in the first place)

It is an expectation of an SNA that they would be a positive helpful attribute to the classroom. Sadly, this is not always the case. Some need to be reminded, by me, of what I expect from them in the class. I do not expect an SNA to be the cause of friction with a student. Yet, this is one such scenario. There are different ways to manage kids which he should be made aware of by me because I am the one in the class and I am the one who can see the problem and its cause and its possible resolution. If need be, a sit down with principal, sna and me. This is often the best solution I feel.

I recall an sna being in tears (at a meeting of sna, the teacher and the principal) because the teacher wanted certain assistance with writing done in a certain way with a student. A way which the sna was simply not doing. At that meeting, the teacher outlined very clearly indeed what the problem was, what his expectations were for dealing with the kids and the way HE wanted things to be done BY the sna in future. These were his expectations of the SNA. He did outline these on numerous times with the SNA prior to meeting with principal but the SNA was not engaging with the work the way he wanted. Thus the need to talk to principal. I don't see it written down anywhere that a teacher can not discuss expectations with SNA but I am open to correction on that.

seavill

I think that if the way the posts are coming across here is anything to go by it's no wonder that the SNA doesn't go out of their way to help you. You seem to think they are a general assistant to you (helping clean your room, give messages, photocopy etc.) they are not.

They are there to look after the child. If, for the child's benefit, something needs to be done in a particular way (the writing you refer to) then that is fair enough. If you have a good working relationship with the SNA that could surely be sorted internally, if not then the SN coordinator or Principal does need to be involved, I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree with you on that point.
I would suggest (obviously this is only from the way that you wrote above) that maybe developing a betteer working relationship is the way to go rather than sitting them down to explain YOUR expectations of how you want them to do their job. This straight away reads to me that you are the boss of them and they must do things your way. Was there a reason the SNA didn't do it the way you wanted, if it was just laziness fair enough if it was due to them feeling it wasn't the best of the child then obviously there needs to be further discussions held.
I have never seen it written down that you can't discuss your expectations with an SNA but why not ask yourself why do you need to do this? Surely the SNA knows their role, if they don't then the issue isn't with you its with them and their boss. If its the case that you don't know their role, which again seems to be the case based on what YOU wrote, then it is obvious why there is friction.

It is none of your business what the SNAs are doing during June, that is between them and the Principal.

I teach Woodwork and often there would be spills etc. I have in the past taken the cleaning materials from the SNA to do it myself because it's certainly not their job, I had plenty other things to be doing but it's my room and the kids are my responsibility.
Again I would ask why is there a need for the SNA to be regularly photocopying for you? If you are regularly not prepared for class, that is not their fault, have a look at yourself first. Only recently two of the kids lost their handouts, my SNA offered to go photocopy the sheet for them, as they was not playing an active part in the lesson as generally their child gets on fine so she gives him space. Had she not offered I would not have asked her, I would simply have done it in my own time and given it to the kids at a later stage.

I constantly have SNAs in the room with me, and have done for the last 8 years of teaching. At times I had two in the one room. I have gotten on well with all of them as I treat them with respect and respect their job, not treat them as second class citizens or expect them to do things that I couldn't be arsed doing or I don't want to do.

I would suggest that you need to look at your view of an SNA, rather than the issue being on their side I would suggest it is on your side. They are not there to bring messages for you, photocopy for you, clean up for you and certainly not clean up your room (whether the child is there nor not), they are there to look after the child. If you have one that is very accommodating and they are free, and they decide to help you, then fair enough that is their choice but you certainly can't expect that from others as it is not their job. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying there isn't lazy SNAs just like there are lazy teachers. I'm not saying they should come in and do their job and nothing else, but you seem to be of the opinion they should be there to assist you when you want, there to do things that you ask them, things that are certainly not their jobs, then you are wrong.
I would say have a look at your own side rather than blaming them.

bobbyss

Thank you seavill for your response.

I never said the SNAs don't go out of their way to help me. As I said we have great SNAs in our school, one or two are the cause of friction in the class.

I think it is part of the job description of SNAs to rearrange furniture/ clean up a room especially at the end of a day when furniture is not in correct position. But again, I never said I wanted SNAs to clean up the room.

It is fantastic when they do do this as I would be doing it myself anyway and if they want to assist me in that then that's great.

Yes, you are right in one regard: I want things done in my class the I want them to be done. That is my way not the SNAs way. I want students to listen to what I am saying before any writing takes place. I don't want an SNA getting on with the writing before I have stopped explaining stuff. This, I am sure you appreciate, will cause friction.

Why do I need to discuss my expectations with the SNA? In order for SNA to be aware of my ways.

'Surely the SNA knows their role'.

I am assuming this is rhetorical?


'It is none of your business what the SNAs are doing during June' .

You mean on their holidays? I agree. But, as I understand it, SNAs are obliged to be available for a number of days in summer holidays. I think up to seven days. (I am open to correction on that). So if I want an SNA to do stuff in my classroom eg reorganise a mountain of paperwork, photocopying or reorganising files then I would explain what I want. It is therefore, very much my business.


'Again I would ask why is there a need for the SNA to be regularly photocopying for you?'

Because the SNA very obligingly and very willingly does that when he has a free class. It fosters good working relationships between us. I really appreciate it.


'If you are regularly not prepared for class'.

Again, I never said I was not prepared for class. This is your construction. If a teacher asks an SNA to photocopy something, are you suggesting they are not prepared for class?

'Only recently two of the kids lost their handouts, my SNA offered to go photocopy the sheet for them, as they was not playing an active part in the lesson as generally their child gets on fine so she gives him space. Had she not offered I would not have asked her, I would simply have done it in my own time and given it to the kids at a later stage.'

Hmm. I would have asked her to photocopy the hand outs. She was not engaged with the student according to what you wrote. The two kids may have needed them in class to do their work. In not asking her, they may have been at a loss.


I constantly have SNAs in the room with me, and have done for the last 8 years of teaching. At times I had two in the one room. I have gotten on well with all of them as I treat them with respect and respect their job, not treat them as second class citizens or expect them to do things that I couldn't be arsed doing or I don't want to do.

(I will ignore the pejorative language) but again I never said I couldn't be asedr or didn't want to do things. You seem to be jumping to conclusions without much forethought.

If you have one that is very accommodating and they are free, and they decide to help you, then fair enough that is their choice but you certainly can't expect that from others as it is not their job.

That has been covered as per above.

you seem to be of the opinion they should be there to assist you when you want, there to do things that you ask them, things that are certainly not their jobs, then you are wrong.
I would say have a look at your own side rather than blaming them.

Everything I ask an SNA to do, they do. Why? Because I ask nothing of them they are not happy to do. No complaints.
I did not say I blamed anybody.

vamos!

An SNA is responsible for an individual child or a small group of children. I work with some lovely SNAs. Possibly less often that teachers with other subjects. I have never and will never ask an SNA to be my assistant. There is one particular lady who sits near the photocopier in the staff room and has offered to help me with stapling a pile of handouts or offers to drop photocopying to a classroom if a teacher runs in in the middles of a class. She offers. Like any teacher standing nearby might offer. She has helped me set up a room for a lunchtime club if she was in my room just before lunch. Again, like any teacher might offer a hand. Most of the time I say it's grand and ask the students to help. The SNA is volunteering to give a hand with something that is in no way connected to her job.

What grounds do you have to expect an SNA to rearrange furniture or do filing or photocopying? Would you ask the TY coordinator to do it when TYs are away on work experience and they have a light fortnight? Your posts make no sense and I'm not sure you understand or respect the role of an SNA.

seavill

You know exactly what I was on about, the tone of your post below says it all really.

Here is the relevant circular about SNAs

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0030_2014.pdf

It might help you understand their role a bit better. Nowhere does it mention being an assistant to a particular teacher, photocopying/bringing messages/helping clean their room in the summer.

bobbyss wrote: »

Thank you seavill for your response.

I never said the SNAs don't go out of their way to help me. As I said we have great SNAs in our school, one or two are the cause of friction in the class.

As I said maybe it's not the SNA that is the problem

I think it is part of the job description of SNAs to rearrange furniture/ clean up a room especially at the end of a day when furniture is not in correct position. But again, I never said I wanted SNAs to clean up the room.

You think it is, the Department disagree. The only mention of cleaning is to help another student who might not be capable but has no SNA. Again fixing the furniture is not their job. Yes its nice to have someone give a hand if they are free but not their job. You said that you wanted them to clean a spill (or inferred it) and you said that you wanted them to help clean your room with you in June. So yes you did say you wanted SNAs to clean your room

It is fantastic when they do do this as I would be doing it myself anyway and if they want to assist me in that then that's great.

Yes it is and no one has a problem with that but you were upset in previous posts that they didnt help you during June when you asked and they didnt clean a spill you did it so if you have no problem doing it all yourself why are you here moaning about it

Yes, you are right in one regard: I want things done in my class the I want them to be done. That is my way not the SNAs way. I want students to listen to what I am saying before any writing takes place. I don't want an SNA getting on with the writing before I have stopped explaining stuff. This, I am sure you appreciate, will cause friction.

Absolutely, like I said I don't think that anyone would have a problem with that unless there was a particular care need for doing something differently

Why do I need to discuss my expectations with the SNA? In order for SNA to be aware of my ways.

'Surely the SNA knows their role'.

I am assuming this is rhetorical?

It was aimed more to you that they clearly know their roles but you don't


'It is none of your business what the SNAs are doing during June' .

You mean on their holidays? I agree. But, as I understand it, SNAs are obliged to be available for a number of days in summer holidays. I think up to seven days. (I am open to correction on that). So if I want an SNA to do stuff in my classroom eg reorganise a mountain of paperwork, photocopying or reorganising files then I would explain what I want. It is therefore, very much my business.

No I clearly don't mean on their holidays. Yes SNAs have to do extra time during June that teachers don't have to do. Why do you think you have teh right to get an SNA to reorganise your paperwork or photocopy or reorganise your files, where have you gotten this idea form?


'Again I would ask why is there a need for the SNA to be regularly photocopying for you?'

Because the SNA very obligingly and very willingly does that when he has a free class. It fosters good working relationships between us. I really appreciate it.

Again I said if someone chooses to do that, then fair play to them but its not their job and its not something you should be asking them to do. Take my school we have nearly 100 staff, we have maybe 5 SNAs, if all 100 teachers were to give all their photocopying to one or two of the SNAs what would their job turn into then.

'If you are regularly not prepared for class'.

Again, I never said I was not prepared for class. This is your construction. If a teacher asks an SNA to photocopy something, are you suggesting they are not prepared for class?

Yes I am suggesting that they are not prepared for class, why can't the teacher do their own photocopying, that is their job not the job of the SNA. Do you think that photocopying is beneath you or what? Would you ask an SNA to correct your class homework or a set of tests?

'Only recently two of the kids lost their handouts, my SNA offered to go photocopy the sheet for them, as they was not playing an active part in the lesson as generally their child gets on fine so she gives him space. Had she not offered I would not have asked her, I would simply have done it in my own time and given it to the kids at a later stage.'

Hmm. I would have asked her to photocopy the hand outs. She was not engaged with the student according to what you wrote. The two kids may have needed them in class to do their work. In not asking her, they may have been at a loss.

You missed the bit you wanted to miss there. I said she offered and there was no problem with her doing it. But I still would not have asked because her job during my class to to mind the child, not leave the class because i wanted her to. Like I said I could have photocopied it during lunch and arranged for the kid to come back to me to collect it, or I could have dropped it to them during one of my free classes, either way its still not the job of the SNA.


you seem to be of the opinion they should be there to assist you when you want, there to do things that you ask them, things that are certainly not their jobs, then you are wrong.
I would say have a look at your own side rather than blaming them.

Everything I ask an SNA to do, they do. Why? Because I ask nothing of them they are not happy to do. No complaints.
I did not say I blamed anybody.

Again clearly they are unhappy to clear up the spill you mentioned. At least a couple of them are unhappy to do your photocopying, they were unhappy to help you clear your room thats why they left you at it yourself (I think it was you to mentioned that). If there was no complaints why are you here slagging them off. Clearly they are unwilling to do what you ask which is why you are here asking. You seem to think that because a few are unwilling to do that tasks that you seem to think you are entitled to assign to them that they are the ones causing the conflict. Have a look in the mirror first.

Again everything you say, apply that to every teacher in your school or my school of nearly 100 staff, when would the SNAs get time to actually look after the kids if they were doing everything you ask x100 times.
Also in relation to fixing furniture an SNA may be responsible for ensuring a kid gets their books from a locker, gets to their car safely etc. Might be some reasons they can't stay to help (aside, obviously, from the fact its not their job)

bobbyss

vamos! wrote: »

An SNA is responsible for an individual child or a small group of children. I work with some lovely SNAs. Possibly less often that teachers with other subjects. I have never and will never ask an SNA to be my assistant. There is one particular lady who sits near the photocopier in the staff room and has offered to help me with stapling a pile of handouts or offers to drop photocopying to a classroom if a teacher runs in in the middles of a class. She offers. Like any teacher standing nearby might offer. She has helped me set up a room for a lunchtime club if she was in my room just before lunch. Again, like any teacher might offer a hand. Most of the time I say it's grand and ask the students to help. The SNA is volunteering to give a hand with something that is in no way connected to her job.

What grounds do you have to expect an SNA to rearrange furniture or do filing or photocopying? Would you ask the TY coordinator to do it when TYs are away on work experience and they have a light fortnight? Your posts make no sense and I'm not sure you understand or respect the role of an SNA.

Thanks for your post vamos!

What grounds do you have to expect an SNA to rearrange furniture or do filing or photocopying?

1. I think if you look up DoE website look for job description of SNAs. Unless I am absolutely wrong it did actually mention 'rearrange furniture'. Unfortunately I don't know the exact circular. Correct me if I am wrong however.

2. I do not know what the job description of the TY coordinator is. I doubt very much it includes rearranging furniture. If, by a freak of nature, it did include this as part of his/her job description, I would have no problem in asking for assistance. It being part of a job description I don't think there coordinator would have an issue in being asked.

3. Filing or photocopying? The grounds for this?

Well, frequently SNAs who are free for any reason knock on my door or over the break will ask me ' Do you have any copying to be done? As I said above, I really appreciate it.

Other grounds? There is something about 'other duties as directed by the principal'. For example, if the principal had said to the SNA: In your free time after school hours when the kids are gone, would you mind doing some photocopying for staff if they need it? And if the SNA agreed to that. The principal would have informed us that this is something which is available from the SNA. We don't have a secretary by the way. Again, this is highly appreciated by staff.

4. If you can refer me to anywhere in my posts which suggests to you I don't respect the role of an SNA?

seavill

Your story is changing faster than the Fifa debacle I'm out

r93kaey5p2izun

Personally I feel that the role of the SNA is very poorly understood by many people, students, parents, teachers (myself included), management and SNAs alike. I don't think teachers have received enough training on working with SNAs and many schools lack clear procedures and policies around how teachers and SNAs should work together. I think it's probably a bigger issue at second level where the SNA will work with many teachers and different subject requirements so it's more difficult to have a definite system in place.

The fact that primary care needs are the principal function of SNAs has been highlighted more since the new circular was released. But we all know that the day-to-day job of most SNAs has, for many years, involved so much more than that. It's a difficult position for SNAs themselves I think. On the one hand they are often taken advantage of in being made do inappropriate jobs and busy work so they need to be firm and avoid this becoming common practice. On the other hand, however, many are reluctant to minimise their work to solely "care needs" because it really puts the future viability of many SNA jobs in jeopardy - particularly given the nonsense in the new circular regarding senior primary and second level pupils not needing assistance.

The new circular also needs to be read in conjunction with cicular 0071/2011 which gives a list of duties SNAs may be required to perform. This list includes liaising with teachers and also preparing and tidying rooms and preparing equipment and resources related to students with SEN. It's deliberately quite vague I think, which is part of the problem. Personally I wouldn't interpret it as meaning SNAs should be asked to do general class photocopying or general class tidying.

My own experience in working with many SNAs is that they have been very good at what they do and a valuable asset to the students and the school. However, their role in my school certainly extends well beyond care needs and I think they are taken advantage of by management at times in terms of their work in June after the school year has ended.

I have had one difficult experience with an SNA when I was an NQT and didn't have the confidence or training to deal with it effectively. This SNA interfered in the running of my class, undermined my classroom management strategies and caused significant friction in the class. She even interfered in the teaching of the class at times. Thankfully I have not had any more issues like that. I'm still not sure how such an issue, once it has arisen, would be best addressed without involving the prinicipal or whoever manages the work of the SNAs. But I think that, with increased experience now, I wouldn't let the situation develop at all so it wouldn't get that far.

bobbyss

Jonah Black Ship wrote: »

Personally I feel that the role of the SNA is very poorly understood by many people, students, parents, teachers (myself included), management and SNAs alike. I don't think teachers have received enough training on working with SNAs and many schools lack clear procedures and policies around how teachers and SNAs should work together. I think it's probably a bigger issue at second level where the SNA will work with many teachers and different subject requirements so it's more difficult to have a definite system in place.

The fact that primary care needs are the principal function of SNAs has been highlighted more since the new circular was released. But we all know that the day-to-day job of most SNAs has, for many years, involved so much more than that. It's a difficult position for SNAs themselves I think. On the one hand they are often taken advantage of in being made do inappropriate jobs and busy work so they need to be firm and avoid this becoming common practice. On the other hand, however, many are reluctant to minimise their work to solely "care needs" because it really puts the future viability of many SNA jobs in jeopardy - particularly given the nonsense in the new circular regarding senior primary and second level pupils not needing assistance.

The new circular also needs to be read in conjunction with cicular 0071/2011 which gives a list of duties SNAs may be required to perform. This list includes liaising with teachers and also preparing and tidying rooms and preparing equipment and resources related to students with SEN. It's deliberately quite vague I think, which is part of the problem. Personally I wouldn't interpret it as meaning SNAs should be asked to do general class photocopying or general class tidying.

My own experience in working with many SNAs is that they have been very good at what they do and a valuable asset to the students and the school. However, their role in my school certainly extends well beyond care needs and I think they are taken advantage of by management at times in terms of their work in June after the school year has ended.

I have had one difficult experience with an SNA when I was an NQT and didn't have the confidence or training to deal with it effectively. This SNA interfered in the running of my class, undermined my classroom management strategies and caused significant friction in the class. She even interfered in the teaching of the class at times. Thankfully I have not had any more issues like that. I'm still not sure how such an issue, once it has arisen, would be best addressed without involving the prinicipal or whoever manages the work of the SNAs. But I think that, with increased experience now, I wouldn't let the situation develop at all so it wouldn't get that far.

Thank you for response. I agree with most of what you say. There is a lot of misunderstanding between all parties. I take your point especially re duties outside of primary care needs. It is rare indeed when an SNA does not really make a positive contribution to the student(s). This undermining / interference you refer to: did you deal with it directly or did you go to principal? How was it resolved?

r93kaey5p2izun

bobbyss wrote: »

Thank you for response. I agree with most of what you say. There is a lot of misunderstanding between all parties. I take your point especially re duties outside of primary care needs. It is rare indeed when an SNA does not really make a positive contribution to the student(s). This undermining / interference you refer to: did you deal with it directly or did you go to principal? How was it resolved?

I let it drag on for far too long until it was a big issue. I eventually sought assistance from the SEN coordinator who managed the work of the SNAs in that school. I had tried speaking to the SNA but it was not successful, but I was not clear or firm enough and I should have been. I was in a position where in order to run my classroom as I wanted, I would have needed to directly undermine what the SNA was saying and doing in front of the students. The SEN coordinator handled it well. She spoke to the SNA and it was resolved and then we had some meetings together about how to manage the class. There was a frosty relationship thereafter though.

The SNA was working with a special class and had been with them for quite a while. I took over a subject for a maternity leave. At the same time the school was implementing training with the NBSS and I was following a classroom management system recommended by them specifically for our school setting. This involved some changes from what might be considered traditional classroom management policies and I think the SNA found it difficult to sit back and not intervene in certain situations and behaviours. I was also using a lot of active methodologies and group work which I think were not in regular use with this particular class at the time, so there would have been quite a shift from chalk-and-talk with students in rows, to group work etc.

fluffy_sox

Jonah Black Ship wrote: »

I let it drag on for far too long until it was a big issue. I eventually sought assistance from the SEN coordinator who managed the work of the SNAs in that school. I had tried speaking to the SNA but it was not successful, but I was not clear or firm enough and I should have been. I was in a position where in order to run my classroom as I wanted, I would have needed to directly undermine what the SNA was saying and doing in front of the students. The SEN coordinator handled it well. She spoke to the SNA and it was resolved and then we had some meetings together about how to manage the class. There was a frosty relationship thereafter though.

The SNA was working with a special class and had been with them for quite a while. I took over a subject for a maternity leave. At the same time the school was implementing training with the NBSS and I was following a classroom management system recommended by them specifically for our school setting. This involved some changes from what might be considered traditional classroom management policies and I think the SNA found it difficult to sit back and not intervene in certain situations and behaviours. I was also using a lot of active methodologies and group work which I think were not in regular use with this particular class at the time, so there would have been quite a shift from chalk-and-talk with students in rows, to group work etc.

I think that a number of the situations mentioned here have a certain amount to do with poor working relationships. I think singling it out as an "issue with SNA's" is unfair as a number of SNAs are already under strain.

In the situations such as the above it is important to take into account what the SNA has to say - my mother is an SNA and had been in a similar situation. She had been working with a class for 4 years and a new teacher decided to take a different approach to class methodologies. The special needs child in this case was particularly difficult and needed structure to feel calm and to prevent her from lashing out. When the new methodology was not working for this child (to the point where my mother was being pinched, hit and spat on by the child out of the childs' own frustration) my Mum asked for the teacher to consider approaching it differently (in a way which had worked in the class for the previous 4years). Obviously as it was the "Teachers' class", it was up to the teacher how she would conduct the class.
After Christmas my mother was attacked by the child with a pencil and ended up needing stitches. However it is still widely maintained that this is "part of an SNA's job".

So while I understand that where there are some milder cases, it may seem like the SNA's do not have much to do, the very nature of their job is so undefined that they end up having to deal with everything and anything, and frustration goes both ways.
There are difficult working relationships in all jobs.

gaiscioch

Don't mess with the SNAs, or ever show them disrespect. Seriously. Some day you might need their evidence of what actually happened in class.

Genuinely never thought of asking an SNA to help me tidy up the class. Must try that when we go back, just for the joy of hearing three words, with the first being "Go" and the third being "yourself" (and "tidy" is not the missing word).

I love the SNAs in my school. We have the best craic with our "off the record" conversations. It's not all roses for them either. If students in our school decide they don't want the SNA sitting next to them, our wise principal has decided that, well, the student has that right. So the SNAs end up sitting in class humiliated, in every class. They try to help other students, but the students who have managed to successfully reject the SNA's help then deride those students who would willingly accept their help. What a waste of taxpayers' money.

r93kaey5p2izun

fluffy_sox wrote: »

I think that a number of the situations mentioned here have a certain amount to do with poor working relationships. I think singling it out as an "issue with SNA's" is unfair as a number of SNAs are already under strain.

In the situations such as the above it is important to take into account what the SNA has to say - my mother is an SNA and had been in a similar situation. She had been working with a class for 4 years and a new teacher decided to take a different approach to class methodologies. The special needs child in this case was particularly difficult and needed structure to feel calm and to prevent her from lashing out. When the new methodology was not working for this child (to the point where my mother was being pinched, hit and spat on by the child out of the childs' own frustration) my Mum asked for the teacher to consider approaching it differently (in a way which had worked in the class for the previous 4years). Obviously as it was the "Teachers' class", it was up to the teacher how she would conduct the class.
After Christmas my mother was attacked by the child with a pencil and ended up needing stitches. However it is still widely maintained that this is "part of an SNA's job".

So while I understand that where there are some milder cases, it may seem like the SNA's do not have much to do, the very nature of their job is so undefined that they end up having to deal with everything and anything, and frustration goes both ways.
There are difficult working relationships in all jobs.

I agree with what you say re difficult working relationships and frustrations running both ways. Just to note that at no point in any of my posts did I single out problems as "issues with SNAs". I discussed one issue I had with one SNA and blamed myself for much of the problem. I also never once suggested that SNAs don't have much to do.

Your mother's experience seems very different to the situation I described. Your mother spoke to the teacher and asked for her to consider her advice when things weren't working. That seems like the professional thing to do in the best interests of the student. The SNA in my situation wasn't interested in speaking to me - she just ignored me, interrupted me and talked over me in class, gave inappropriate punishments to several students in the class against my wishes and ignored the new behavioural management sytem being implemented specifically for this class by all teachers, as recommended by the NBSS and instructed by the principal.

As I said in previous posts, I value the SNAs I work with and have found them to be excellent at their jobs.

Lady_North1

I have read most of the above posts and find some of the comments quite hilarious.
Firstly, to clarify, it is 100% NOT an SNAs job to rearrange the furniture.
Secondly, it is NOT an SNAs job to do your photocopying and tidy your classroom.
Thirdly, it is 5 days max, either end of the summer holidays that an SNA must be available to carry out duties applicable to the role of SNA.

If there's a job that needs doing in your school, even though there was no special needs child there, then that job is NOT an SNA job.
If there's a job that needs doing, relevant to the special needs child in your school, that is the job of the SNA.

As an SNA of 13 years I have worked with many teachers, have got on with all of them, carried out many jobs that are not part of my job and will continue to do so. I 100% work as part of a team. I give 100% of myself to the kids I work with. I however will not be treated with disrespect. The attitude of the original poster I think is the main problem here. Not what the SNA will or won't do.

evolving_doors

Lady_North1 wrote: »

I have read most of the above posts and find some of the comments quite hilarious.
Firstly, to clarify, it is 100% NOT an SNAs job to rearrange the furniture.
Secondly, it is NOT an SNAs job to do your photocopying and tidy your classroom.
Thirdly, it is 5 days max, either end of the summer holidays that an SNA must be available to carry out duties applicable to the role of SNA.

If there's a job that needs doing in your school, even though there was no special needs child there, then that job is NOT an SNA job.
If there's a job that needs doing, relevant to the special needs child in your school, that is the job of the SNA.

As an SNA of 13 years I have worked with many teachers, have got on with all of them, carried out many jobs that are not part of my job and will continue to do so. I 100% work as part of a team. I give 100% of myself to the kids I work with. I however will not be treated with disrespect. The attitude of the original poster I think is the main problem here. Not what the SNA will or won't do.

I think in your case then your remit is to the needs of the child only. Have a read of this part of the circular and you can see why some SNA's are set tasks which have nothing to do with the care needs of the child:

"include tasks of a non-teaching nature such as other duties appropriate to the grade as may be determined by the needs of the pupils and the school from time to time"

Some school's deem adminstration work to be 'needs of the school'.

Lady_North1

the clue is in the name..... Special Needs Assistant.... Not administration assistant. Admin is definitely NOT one of the SNA roles.
That's the secretary's job. If I was the secretary I'd hate someone taking my job away...

seavill

I agree with you but gebgbegb is correct it does say that line in the circular about the roles of a SNA. Technically the principal can pretty much ask you to do whatever they want for the "needs of the school" but I think the key is "from time to time" from my experience it's really only in the extra days in June that SNAs are asked to do any tasks outside of the child.

Alex Meier

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks folks for responses thus far.
I may ask an SNA to distribute some messages to other classes for example. If I need photocopying done and I have not got the time, I ask the SNA. He has no problem with this. He may have a free class. He may be free when kids gone home. He may be very obliging. This is a need that I have that I have discussed with him and that he has agreed to. It's no problem and the working relationship is excellent. Mind you other SNAs may not be so obliging and technicaly I suppose they do not have to engage in that unless they were asked as part of job to do so by principal. (But the principal would not ask them unless it was a need of the teacher or other staff member in the first place)

It is an expectation of an SNA that they would be a positive helpful attribute to the classroom. Sadly, this is not always the case. Some need to be reminded, by me, of what I expect from them in the class. I do not expect an SNA to be the cause of friction with a student. Yet, this is one such scenario. There are different ways to manage kids which he should be made aware of by me because I am the one in the class and I am the one who can see the problem and its cause and its possible resolution. If need be, a sit down with principal, sna and me. This is often the best solution I feel.

I recall an sna being in tears (at a meeting of sna, the teacher and the principal) because the teacher wanted certain assistance with writing done in a certain way with a student. A way which the sna was simply not doing. At that meeting, the teacher outlined very clearly indeed what the problem was, what his expectations were for dealing with the kids and the way HE wanted things to be done BY the sna in future. These were his expectations of the SNA. He did outline these on numerous times with the SNA prior to meeting with principal but the SNA was not engaging with the work the way he wanted. Thus the need to talk to principal. I don't see it written down anywhere that a teacher can not discuss expectations with SNA but I am open to correction on that.

Reading this I have to say that it seems to me that you do not have a healthy relationship between teachers and SNAs in your school.

Firstly it is NOT the responsibility of the SNA to do your photocopying - It's YOUR JOB. Who is attending to the child requiring the SNA when you're sending them out to do your photocopying?

What's this "a sit down with the Principal" stuff?
Why do you and your colleagues feel it's necessary to resolve an issue with the Principal?
Any issues should be resolved from adult-to-adult . . . between the teacher and the SNA.

The issue you describe of an SNA brought to tears in front of a teacher because of a different writing style is bordering on staff bullying in my opinion.

Alex Meier

bobbyss wrote: »

'It is none of your business what the SNAs are doing during June' .

You mean on their holidays? I agree. But, as I understand it, SNAs are obliged to be available for a number of days in summer holidays. I think up to seven days. (I am open to correction on that). So if I want an SNA to do stuff in my classroom eg reorganise a mountain of paperwork, photocopying or reorganising files then I would explain what I want. It is therefore, very much my business.

With respect you have a serious attitude problem if you think that an SNA is to be there at your call.

The "A" in SNA stands for "Assistant" - Assistant to the child not the teacher.

bobbyss

gaiscioch wrote: »

Don't mess with the SNAs, or ever show them disrespect. Seriously. Some day you might need their evidence of what actually happened in class.

Genuinely never thought of asking an SNA to help me tidy up the class. Must try that when we go back, just for the joy of hearing three words, with the first being "Go" and the third being "yourself" (and "tidy" is not the missing word).

I love the SNAs in my school. We have the best craic with our "off the record" conversations. It's not all roses for them either. If students in our school decide they don't want the SNA sitting next to them, our wise principal has decided that, well, the student has that right. So the SNAs end up sitting in class humiliated, in every class. They try to help other students, but the students who have managed to successfully reject the SNA's help then deride those students who would willingly accept their help. What a waste of taxpayers' money.

Why exactly would the SNA say 'go .... yourself' if requested to help you tidy up the class?

gaiscioch

bobbyss wrote: »

Why exactly would the SNA say 'go .... yourself' if requested to help you tidy up the class?

Alex above put it succinctly. Please note:

Alex Meier wrote: »

The "A" in SNA stands for "Assistant" - Assistant to the child not the teacher.

bobbyss

gaiscioch wrote: »

Alex above put it succinctly. Please note:

Yet my question to you remains unanswered . . .

bobbyss

Lady_North1 wrote: »

I have read most of the above posts and find some of the comments quite hilarious.
Firstly, to clarify, it is 100% NOT an SNAs job to rearrange the furniture.
Secondly, it is NOT an SNAs job to do your photocopying and tidy your classroom.
Thirdly, it is 5 days max, either end of the summer holidays that an SNA must be available to carry out duties applicable to the role of SNA.

If there's a job that needs doing in your school, even though there was no special needs child there, then that job is NOT an SNA job.
If there's a job that needs doing, relevant to the special needs child in your school, that is the job of the SNA.

As an SNA of 13 years I have worked with many teachers, have got on with all of them, carried out many jobs that are not part of my job and will continue to do so. I 100% work as part of a team. I give 100% of myself to the kids I work with. I however will not be treated with disrespect. The attitude of the original poster I think is the main problem here. Not what the SNA will or won't do.

You may wish to refer to the first listed duty of an SNA (circular 12/05): Preparation and tidying up of classrooms.

Our SNAs gladly assist me and others when they have free time to do photocopying. I value this a lot, as I have previously said.

I think it would be fair to say that their assistance in this regard falls under Number 8 of duties of SNA (12/05). 'General assistance to the class teachers, under the direction of the Principal, with duties of a non-teaching nature'. If this was an issue with our SNAs I am sure they would have said something by now. But as I say they are happy to oblige.

You may very well be right Lady_North1 regarding the five days either end of the summer holidays and I am very much open to correction but the same circular (12/05) refers to five consecutive days, but adding up to twelve not ten. But again I am open to correction on that. All I am going on is the circular 12/05.

gaiscioch

bobbyss wrote: »

Why exactly would the SNA say 'go .... yourself' if requested to help you tidy up the class?

Alex above put it succinctly. Please note:

Alex Meier wrote: »

The "A" in SNA stands for "Assistant" - Assistant to the child not the teacher.

bobbyss wrote: »

Yet my question to you remains unanswered . . .

I'll try and simplify this, and add some bold. You see, if the SNA is to assist the child then, well, he/she is not there to assist the teacher in tidying up the classroom. Indeed, if it's too much hassle for the teacher they can always track down the students who messed up the area in the first place and get them to do it.

seavill

bobbyss wrote: »

You may wish to refer to the first listed duty of an SNA (circular 12/05): Preparation and tidying up of classrooms.

Our SNAs gladly assist me and others when they have free time to do photocopying. I value this a lot, as I have previously said.

I think it would be fair to say that their assistance in this regard falls under Number 8 of duties of SNA (12/05). 'General assistance to the class teachers, under the direction of the Principal, with duties of a non-teaching nature'. If this was an issue with our SNAs I am sure they would have said something by now. But as I say they are happy to oblige.

You may very well be right Lady_North1 regarding the five days either end of the summer holidays and I am very much open to correction but the same circular (12/05) refers to five consecutive days, but adding up to twelve not ten. But again I am open to correction on that. All I am going on is the circular 12/05.

If your SNAs are great and do everything you ask as you have described in your last few posts (different to the stories in your first few) what is the point if your thread

bobbyss

seavill wrote: »

If your SNAs are great and do everything you ask as you have described in your last few posts (different to the stories in your first few) what is the point if your thread

The point of the thread is stated in my first two posts. Our SNAs are good. There was one difficult incident with a teacher -referred to. It is around this incident that the thread eminates. Posters are asked to share similar incidents and how it was dealt with.
That's it in a nutshell. I don't think you yourself made any mention of being involved in such an issue and its resolution. But it is aimed primarily at such an audience.
can you tell me where my story is different? I would like to deal with that as I am not aware of any inconsistencies. I stand over everything.
By the way I thought you had done a Blatter. But you are back. Welcome.

bobbyss

gaiscioch wrote: »

Alex above put it succinctly. Please note:





I'll try and simplify this, and add some bold. You see, if the SNA is to assist the child then, well, he/she is not there to assist the teacher in tidying up the classroom. Indeed, if it's too much hassle for the teacher they can always track down the students who messed up the area in the first place and get them to do it.

I will refer you to circular 12/05 Appendix 1 to deepen your understanding of assistance.

If i requested assistance from an SNA to help tidy my classroom and I was told by same SNA to 'Go ...k yourself ', I would very quickly refer SNA
to section 3 of same circular under the heading of disciplinary procedures.
A colleague telling you to 'Go ...k yourself'! What kind of person is that?

Lady_North1

bobbyss wrote: »

You may very well be right Lady_North1 regarding the five days either end of the summer holidays and I am very much open to correction but the same circular (12/05) refers to five consecutive days, but adding up to twelve not ten. But again I am open to correction on that. All I am going on is the circular 12/05.

It is most definitely 5 days max at either end of the summer holidays. The twelve days you refer to have now changed to 72 hours..... (Under Croke park 1) These hours can be worked in blocks of 1, 2, 3 hours after school to make them up. But 5 days consecutively is the most an SNA can be asked to work.

bobbyss

Lady_North1 wrote: »

It is most definitely 5 days max at either end of the summer holidays. The twelve days you refer to have now changed to 72 hours..... (Under Croke park 1) These hours can be worked in blocks of 1, 2, 3 hours after school to make them up. But 5 days consecutively is the most an SNA can be asked to work.

I stand corrected Lady_North1 and am indebted to you. Thank you.

r93kaey5p2izun

Lady_North1 wrote: »

It is most definitely 5 days max at either end of the summer holidays. The twelve days you refer to have now changed to 72 hours..... (Under Croke park 1) These hours can be worked in blocks of 1, 2, 3 hours after school to make them up. But 5 days consecutively is the most an SNA can be asked to work.

I have seen this quoted a lot yet so many SNAs are working outside this timeframe. As I have said previously, I believe that management in my school take advantage of the SNAs in terms of what they are asked to do and busy work being invented for them to do.

They are currently working Monday to Friday until June 30th. Two of them are very active union members and I have asked them about this before. They say they are contracted to work until end of June and that the 72 hours is outside of this again! This is the norm in my ETB. Is the system different between different employers?

Lady_North1

Secondary school SNAs are contracted to work til the end of June and the 72 hours are on top of that. I know it seems unfair as they work longer days than primary SNAs but the contact is the same in that respect. September to June.
A lot of SNAs don't work June, it's the principal who'll make that decision.

Late Noods Era Guy

I hate SNAs, They annoy the crap out of me and delay my **** by kicking you out of the classroom in front of everyone over a minor thing like trying to scarn an attractive girl.