Are Croke Park/Haddington Road hours now for life and not just for FEMPI?

Alex Meier

political analyst wrote: »

What's the problem with that? You can talk to the principal while drinking tea or coffee during the break or during a period in your timetable when you don't have class.

Why do you think the Principal wants a one to one conversation rather than a general discussion with the whole staff at a staff meeting?

Because the Principal is a coward that's why... Much easier to neutralise opposition on a private one to one basis

Issues that effect ALL of the staff should be raised at staff meetings

political analyst

Alex Meier wrote: »

Why do you think the Principal wants a one to one conversation rather than a general discussion with the whole staff at a staff meeting?

Because the Principal is a coward that's why... Much easier to neutralise opposition on a private one to one basis

Issues that effect ALL of the staff should be raised at staff meetings

At my alma mater, the principal made it clear that disrespect shown by pupils towards teachers would not be tolerated. It is baffling that there are so many cases of principals being disloyal towards their staff. Presumably, you can take the issue up with your union representative in a private conversation (you probably don't even have to be in the school to have the conversation). After all, no principal wants to be accused of disloyalty towards staff. After all, the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the union for that.

tamcp

I don't think Principal would care if Union kicked her out. She held no solidarity with staff during recent strikes. Came in before 7.30am and left after 6pm to avoid picket. She's a member of the union so it was very poor form on her part. She said it went against her morals to strike!!!!! When you're dealing with a person like this it's very difficult.

Icsics

We've had a new Principal the last few years, she operates a divide & conquer technique. Staff morale has plummeted, her attitude seems to be discipline the teachers rather than the students. Some of the newer principals see themselves as managers & have spent very little time in the classroom. I can guarantee she'll get a HDip to take her few classes in Sept.
The JMB are running schools, not the Dept & with all the retirements the situation will get worse.
One lesson I've learned, you won't change their behaviour BUT you can change your reaction to it. Self preservation is the key thing here😉

political analyst

Icsics wrote: »

We've had a new Principal the last few years, she operates a divide & conquer technique. Staff morale has plummeted, her attitude seems to be discipline the teachers rather than the students. Some of the newer principals see themselves as managers & have spent very little time in the classroom. I can guarantee she'll get a HDip to take her few classes in Sept.
The JMB are running schools, not the Dept & with all the retirements the situation will get worse.
One lesson I've learned, you won't change their behaviour BUT you can change your reaction to it. Self preservation is the key thing here😉

In the post that I quoted in post 60, Chilli Con Kearney said:

The government (DOE&S) are not going to go against the school managers. Sure then there would be all-out war.

Why would the government be afraid of going against principals and deputy principals? After all, the JMB and the NAPDP are not unions. That means that principals and deputy principals cannot take industrial action on their own.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

In the post that I quoted in post 60, Chilli Con Kearney said:


Why would the government be afraid of going against principals and deputy principals? After all, the JMB and the NAPDP are not unions. That means that principals and deputy principals cannot take industrial action on their own.

Dept's reform agenda is driven from the top down. They do this via JMB/principals/WSE threats and then assign 'working committees' to enact the policies... literacy/numeracy/mentoring/compulsory CPD/AFL/Junior Cert reform etc... who do you think a principal will look to to implement and take on the work?

Maybe someone desperate to please
Maybe someone trying to compete with another teacher for hours
Someone with a 're-interview' coming up
Someone with a CID interview coming up

God forbid anyone wants to go home to their family.. or take a lunch break.

CP1/CP2/HR/Low Hour part time jobs/Waring down teachers resolve with extra punishing 'work' was how this was done. 1st thing they did was ensure older teachers retired early, from my talking to those teachers who fought the fight over the decades they could see the writing on the wall 15 years ago... and the new entrants wouldn't have a clue until it's 20 years down the line and we're trying to undo the UK knot we have copied.

Forget about appealing to parents Political Analyst, that argument is getting old.

Alex Meier

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Dept's reform agenda is driven from the top down. They do this via JMB/principals/WSE threats and then assign 'working committees' to enact the policies... literacy/numeracy/mentoring/compulsory CPD/AFL/Junior Cert reform etc... who do you think a principal will look to to implement and take on the work?

Maybe someone desperate to please
Maybe someone trying to compete with another teacher for hours
Someone with a 're-interview' coming up
Someone with a CID interview coming up

God forbid anyone wants to go home to their family.. or take a lunch break.

CP1/CP2/HR/Low Hour part time jobs/Waring down teachers resolve with extra punishing 'work' was how this was done. 1st thing they did was ensure older teachers retired early, from my talking to those teachers who fought the fight over the decades they could see the writing on the wall 15 years ago... and the new entrants wouldn't have a clue until it's 20 years down the line and we're trying to undo the UK knot we have copied.

Forget about appealing to parents Political Analyst, that argument is getting old.

You've hit the nail on the head with this post.

It goes back to the point I made earlier in this thread. . . That a whole industry has been built up to scrutinise, micromanage and add additional workloads to our careers.

Some management consider themselves future high flyers. . . Always too eager to impress the DES when the unions ask simple questions like . . . "How are you going to pay for these reforms?"

Nothing summed it up greatly for me when three school principals from North Dublin signed an Irish Times article DEMANDING that teachers sign up lock, stock and barrel to recent Junior Cert reforms.

Or remember when the JMB/NAPD/NPC all wagged their fingers very disapprovingly at teachers when the ASTI rejected Haddington Road . .

These people are minding their own careers. . . They demand the teachers to take on the extra workload that they wouldn't dream of taking on themselves.

There's always an educational QUANGO somewhere . . .

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Forget about appealing to parents Political Analyst, that argument is getting old.

How could so many parents not be concerned about their children's education?

political analyst

Alex Meier wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head with this post.

It goes back to the point I made earlier in this thread. . . That a whole industry has been built up to scrutinise, micromanage and add additional workloads to our careers.

Some management consider themselves future high flyers. . . Always too eager to impress the DES when the unions ask simple questions like . . . "How are you going to pay for these reforms?"

Nothing summed it up greatly for me when three school principals from North Dublin signed an Irish Times article DEMANDING that teachers sign up lock, stock and barrel to recent Junior Cert reforms.

Or remember when the JMB/NAPD/NPC all wagged their fingers very disapprovingly at teachers when the ASTI rejected Haddington Road . .

These people are minding their own careers. . . They demand the teachers to take on the extra workload that they wouldn't dream of taking on themselves.

There's always an educational QUANGO somewhere . . .

Given that Assessment for Learning concerns the teaching of pupils, principals and deputy principals could hardly be expected to do that work, considering that, generally, they don't teach anymore because they have to run the schools.

Furthermore, I think it's unlikely that they're exempt from doing S&S.

Alex Meier

political analyst wrote: »

Given that Assessment for Learning concerns the teaching of pupils, principals and deputy principals could hardly be expected to do that work, considering that, generally, they don't teach anymore because they have to run the schools.

Furthermore, I think it's unlikely that they're exempt from doing S&S.

The management in my school don't do S&S

Mardy Bum

Alex Meier wrote: »

The management in my school don't do S&S

In fairness the work management have to do is astounding (if the school is run well).

doc_17

tamcp wrote: »

This may be a little unrelated to this forum, but I was wondering what opinions are on the following topic. I am a Secondary school teacher and was recently told by my school Principal that she would prefer it if I didn't leave the school premises each day to go out for lunch. I go to a local café most days with some colleagues. We are always back in plenty of time for classes, etc. I was a little taken aback at this. I told her I felt she was being unfair as I work through all my 'free' classes and all my marking is up to date. I go home each day to two small children and I don't sit down until 9pm. Some days I actually eat dinner out of a saucepan standing at the cooker!!!!Lunchtime is the one hour (40 minutes to be exact) of the day that I get to sit and eat and not discuss work worries. I prefer to avoid the staffroom as this is ALL they talk about. Perhaps I am being unfair to my Principal but I am really annoyed at her thinking we just 'abandon' the school at 12.30 p.m. I do extra curricular activities on a Monday (which I admit I hate). I do my supervision and substitution AND I take weaker students in one of my free classes each week to give them extra help. What more does she want? With Croke Park hours it really is getting to be very difficult juggling school work with a hectic home life. My Principal is a self-admitted workaholic and a lot of the staff feel they need to echo this mindset by staying until 6/7 pm most evenings. What do people think of this? Thanks!

Few questions here, did she give a reason why she didn't want you and your colleagues to leave the school grounds? And are you permanent/CID?

tamcp

CID. Others are permanent. She felt it looks like we're abandoning school by leaving at lunch. Very few teachers leave to be honest. Those of us who do have always done it. There's a canteen on premises but we prefer to get away. Quite often we will be running errands for home and lunch will be eaten very swiftly.

vamos!

It was proposed by a teacher (not management) that all form tutors stay on site in case one of their form group was ill or in trouble throughout the day. Thankfully very few went for it... although scarily more than a handful of people agreed! We don't actually have enough seats in our lunchroom so we need for about a third of the staff to be out for lunch or on lunch duty.

political analyst

tamcp wrote: »

CID. Others are permanent. She felt it looks like we're abandoning school by leaving at lunch. Very few teachers leave to be honest. Those of us who do have always done it. There's a canteen on premises but we prefer to get away. Quite often we will be running errands for home and lunch will be eaten very swiftly.

Contract of indefinite duration; Permanent. What's the difference?

deiseindublin

political analyst wrote: »

Contract of indefinite duration; Permanent. What's the difference?

Big difference if you've a CID of 12 or so hours and you'd prefer 22.

Did Principal approach the PWT staff that go out to lunch also? Stinks if she didn't.

byhookorbycrook

In primary ,we are not supposed to leave the school during the day.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

How could so many parents not be concerned about their children's education?

Last thing a parent wants to do is borrow worries from the future.
I think theres a small window of interest bout 2 -3 yrs. Main question most parents want out of Secondary is "Will Jonny get to college or not?". Ya sure theyre concerned about 'education' to the extent that if the kid is hitting the grades then well and good, if not lets deal with it.

As to the ' how' and 'what' of teaching and learning.. blahblah rote learning bad, continuous assessment good, finland great, Ireland can't think outside the box.. problem solving something something something... "Listen Mr. Teacher...will jonny be ##1### getting to college or not?"

evolving_doors

vamos! wrote: »

It was proposed by a teacher (not management) that all form tutors stay on site in case one of their form group was ill or in trouble throughout the day. Thankfully very few went for it... although scarily more than a handful of people agreed! We don't actually have enough seats in our lunchroom so we need for about a third of the staff to be out for lunch or on lunch duty.

Facepalm for that teacher and their great idea, maybe in primary where theres a smaller cohort of teachers but in secondary just deal with it as it happens, I.e. usual 'not feeling well sir" procedure. Form tutors get square root of sfa for being form tutors as it is.

Once you set a precedent like that then its goodbye volunteering for form tutor. Goodwill can only be spread so thinly.

evolving_doors

Id actually heard about the 'being kept onsite from 9-4' from a retired teacher 10 yrs ago'... Id say the buggers in the dept are trying to figure out how to make it happen... Probably some spiel about insurance/critical incidences/fire safety ill bet

doc_17

Do yourself a favour and that oul fool of a principal to go and, well, you know what he/she should be told.

If that was said to me I'd be ripping. And I'd completely ignore it!

tamcp

The principal only mentioned it as a 'by the way' as we were walking down corridor at end of day. I was obviously chosen to spread the word to others. Our staffroom also has no room for all of us at lunch. I understand health/safety, etc, if we're off premises but I don't see how it affects school if we're not on duty or involved in extra curricular on that day.

joebloggs32

tamcp wrote: »

The principal only mentioned it as a 'by the way' as we were walking down corridor at end of day. I was obviously chosen to spread the word to others. Our staffroom also has no room for all of us at lunch. I understand health/safety, etc, if we're off premises but I don't see how it affects school if we're not on duty or involved in extra curricular on that day.

There is NO health and safety issue. That's what the S+S Rota is there for.

Alex Meier

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In primary ,we are not supposed to leave the school during the day.

It's not that you're not supposed to leave. . Your window of opportunity to leave is limited as you spend all day in front of the same class.

There is no rule stating that primary teachers must remain in their school during their lunch breaks.

Alex Meier

It's actually very difficult to leave the place where I am as there's only a 40 minute lunch break.

The reality is also that secondary teachers only have, in my case anyway, four free periods a week due to Haddington Road.

As a result of Haddington Road and Croke Park I've had Mondays lasting from 9-3.40 PM without a break. . . If a staff meeting is afterwards that could extend itself to 5.30PM.

Many thanks to all those who voted YES.

vamos!

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Id actually heard about the 'being kept onsite from 9-4' from a retired teacher 10 yrs ago'... Id say the buggers in the dept are trying to figure out how to make it happen... Probably some spiel about insurance/critical incidences/fire safety ill bet

Ah yes in case of fire all form tutors will abandon their photocopying, marking and coffee and their F.T spidey senses will tell them where their form are and they can fly through the school, pick up their charges and lift them to safety. It will even work when students are mixed in options. They will also have had time to mark some essays and can distribute them to students so that the time used extinguishing the fire can be productively used.

byhookorbycrook

Alex Meier wrote: »

It's not that you're not supposed to leave. . Your window of opportunity to leave is limited as you spend all day in front of the same class.

There is no rule stating that primary teachers must remain in their school during their lunch breaks.

It comes under duty of care.

1. Duty of Care

Rules 121(4) and 124(1) of the Rules for National Schools and Section 23(2) of the Education Act 1998 oblige teachers to take all reasonable precautions to ensure the safety of pupils and to participate in supervising pupils when the pupils are on school premises, during school time and/or on school activities. Accordingly, the responsibility of all teachers individually and collectively to provide a duty of care at all times towards the children in the school in which they teach, including periods of supervision, is not changed.

rainbowtrout

tamcp wrote: »

The principal only mentioned it as a 'by the way' as we were walking down corridor at end of day. I was obviously chosen to spread the word to others. Our staffroom also has no room for all of us at lunch. I understand health/safety, etc, if we're off premises but I don't see how it affects school if we're not on duty or involved in extra curricular on that day.

It's nothing to do with health and safety. Teachers are on a rota to do S&S at lunch. That covers health and safety. Your principal is just trying to squeeze more work out of you and trying to make you feel guilty for not being available to work your lunch break. I say fcuk them.

acequion

@tampc. Am away at the moment so only throwing the odd look here. But just wanted to row in behind you and endorse what the others are saying about the disgraceful behaviour of your principal. Bullying staff to remain on premises during lunch and blatantly disregarding the strikes though a union member means that she MUST be reported asap. So I would get your union involved there. Best of luck!

Powerhouse

political analyst wrote: »

Contract of indefinite duration; Permanent. What's the difference?

Permanent = full hours.

CID = whatever you're having yourself hours.