The Irish language is failing.

Edgarfrndly

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The most reliable data the census actually showed a percentage decline in the people who speak Irish on a daily basis between 2006 and 2011.

The number of speakers increased slightly but it didn’t increase by as much as the overall population increased.

The most relevant aspect of the census was the difference between the number who said that speak Irish on a daily basis and the number who said they were fluent.

There was 1.77 million people in 2011 who said they could speak Irish.
The number who said they speak it on a daily basis was 77,185.
This works out as less than 5% of those who say they can speak Irish speaking it on a daily basis.

Basically 19 out of the 20 people who say they can speak Irish choose not to do so on a daily basis. That’s before you even look at the other 2.8 million who say that can’t speak Irish.

The overall population was 4,581,269 which mean that the percentage who speak it daily (77,185) works out at 1.68%. If everyone who says that can speak Irish spoke it on a daily basis that percentage would be 38.64%

Blaming education is a massive cop-out. The situation is that over 95% of the people who say they can speak the language don’t do so on a daily basis, which to me says that the simple fact is that the Irish people simply choose not to speak Irish.

If people think that Gaelscoileanna are going to change these percentages much, they need to speak to the teachers there about how much the pupils there use Irish outside the schools.

Your analysis of the census results are flawed. 1.77 million isn't the number of Irish speakers in Ireland. It's the number of people who can speak Irish in the state including during school.

When you look at the real number of people who speak the language outside of school on a daily or weekly basis, you see a more accurate number.

Daily speakers: 77,185
Weekly speakers: 110,642

That puts the number of habitual speakers at over 187,000. If you include the ever-growing number of Irish speakers in the north, that puts the number of habitual speakers at well over 200,000. It's still a small percentage of the overall population of the island, but reasonable when compared to other European minority languages.

It isn't a cop-out to blame the education system. It's an objective reality. The fact is - after 13 years of education, there is a serious lack of fluency in the Irish language in English-medium schools. This isn't a reflection of the difficulty of the Irish language - but rather a reflection on the lack of focus on immersion and conversational classes.

The Government needs to decide what it wants out of the Irish language. Genuine speakers, or grades on a sheet of paper.

Berserker

Never warmed to the language at all myself even though I did very well in it at school. Always preferred French as a second language. I have to be honest and say that I cannot see a way of reviving the language. For it to flourish, it needs to be spoken in everyday life, in the family home for starters and I cannot see that happening.

Shep_Dog

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

It isn't a cop-out to blame the education system. It's an objective reality. The fact is - after 13 years of education, there is a serious lack of fluency in the Irish language in English-medium schools. This isn't a reflection of the difficulty of the Irish language - but rather a reflection on the lack of focus on immersion and conversational classes..

If people really wanted their children to speak Irish, genuinely and sincerely, they would find a way. Some do. But the majority of the population is simply not interested. If the Irish lobby were to agree to stop foisting Irish on the unwilling, the resources could be better applied to those who want to learn Irish.

An Ciarraioch

As has been said here, there needs to be a complete overhaul in the curriculum, with the emphasis on conversational Irish right from junior infants, with the language taught in the same manner as English (French and Spanish largely follow the same mistakes as Irish). There can be no excuses in terms of people who want to learn, after all between RnaG, TG4, Duolingo and availability of social media in Irish, audiovisual resources have never been better. Above all, people have to want to speak Irish in their communities - I don't think I've ever heard the language spoken in Dingle, which is supposed to be the capital of the Kerry Gaeltacht, so developing a bilingual culture in that circumstance is challenging, to say the least.

Grayson

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Look the figures are from the census.

I have no doubt that the 1.77 million figure is somewhat exaggerated.

I also have no doubt that the 77,185 daily speaker figure is exaggerated. [although not by as much as those who say they can speak Irish]

However it is the best evidence available, and trying to estimate how much the exaggeration of both figures is pointless and literally pure speculation.

The basic point is that there are vast vast numbers of people who say they can speak Irish who don't do so on a daily basis.

Does the number who says they speak it daily include those who do so as part of their job?

Edgarfrndly

Shep_Dog wrote: »

If people really wanted their children to speak Irish, genuinely and sincerely, they would find a way. Some do. But the majority of the population is simply not interested. If the Irish lobby were to agree to stop foisting Irish on the unwilling, the resources could be better applied to those who want to learn Irish.

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'd love to learn spanish, but learning a language as an arduous and lengthy task. It isn't as simple as just "wanting" someone's child to learn the language. There are a lot more obstacles at hand.

A lot of parents make a conscious decision to send their children to Gaelscoileanna, but the queue to get into them can be extremely lengthy. Some have to put their child's name down the day they are born to stand a chance.

It isn't about the decision of the parents. It's about what sort of curriculum do we want with respect to the Irish language. It is absurd to ignore the reality that children fail to acquire any reasonable level of fluency, despite 13 or 14 years of instruction. It isn't an issue of desire. I desired to be able to speak Irish in school, but I just found the instruction poor and far from optimal. It's an issue about poor instructional methods, that are extremely outdated.

Like I've previously mentioned, I think if a lot more attention was given to conversational Irish - we'd be having a much different discussion right now about the language.

ancapailldorcha

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The figures I used are from the 2006 and 2011 census.

cso.ie

1.77 million said they could speak Irish. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they're telling porkies.

An Ciarraioch

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1.77 million said they could speak Irish. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they're telling porkies.

Presumably, anyone who knows "Dia dhuit", "Sláinte" and "Go raibh maith agat" ticked the box - a question concerning degree of fluency on a sliding scale would tell a more useful story here.

Dughorm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

A huge huge number of people who say they can speak Irish simply don't do so in their daily life.

Ach cén fáth?

One of the academics on the news said that the younger generation in the Gaeltacht regions were speaking English to each other and speaking Irish to the older generations.

Sure, if this is remotely true then those regions will be "gan teanga" in a few years.

And I bet the kids in the gaelscoileanna are chatting as béarla when the teacher isn't looking either

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

Ach cén fáth?

One of the academics on the news said that the younger generation in the Gaeltacht regions were speaking English to each other and speaking Irish to the older generations.

Sure, if this is remotely true then those regions will be "gan teanga" in a few years.

And I bet the kids in the gaelscoileanna are chatting as béarla when the teacher isn't looking either

Rebellious feckers!

Said it a million times, saying it again: if you want Irish to survive, teach it as a languge to be enjoyed, not a school subject to be endured; if you don't, don't.

Dughorm

I remember being on a train in Portugal and the voice-over woman had the sexiest Portuguese tone - really made me want to learn the language....

Maybe we need Siún Nic Gearailt to do a few recordings for the Luas there

wakka12

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

Sand

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

The Government needs to decide what it wants out of the Irish language. Genuine speakers, or grades on a sheet of paper.

That is the key question: what do we want out of the Irish language? Why do we want it to survive? What is the purpose of spending so much time and money on it?

It certainly doesn't seem to have the purpose of bringing it into daily usage given almost 100 years of compulsory education and various discriminatory laws have failed to achieve that objective.

At this point the Irish government views the Irish language like Liverpool fans view Stephen Gerrard. An exercise in self-deluding nostalgia, with a hard militant edge who think its still relevant.

irishguitarlad

I learned spanish as I love the sound of it. Never liked the sound of irish.

tipparetops

wakka12 wrote: »

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

that was 1948, we had our chance than as well and did not take it.
In 1948 Israel introduced a policy of only Hebrew being used by public bodies,
so for example if you wanted get a driving licence the form was Hebrew only.
Public Servants would only speak Hebrew, everyone had to learn the language.
schools thought Hebrew as the main language.

Israels government practically forced the people to learn the language.
It was a great policy and one Ireland should have adopted.

Dughorm

wakka12 wrote: »

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

That's really interesting - good article about it on www<dot>pij<dot>org/details.php?id=226

“Israel is the only country in the world where mothers learn their mother tongue from the mouths of their children.”

Can't see that passion happening here unfortunately - our kids spout americanisms!

Manach

There does exist a level of goodwill for the language. This is evidenced by the amount of learners of it present on sites such as duolingo. If the international community can assist to such a degree then might it at some level be matched by its homeland.

Iwasfrozen

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

As has been said here, there needs to be a complete overhaul in the curriculum, with the emphasis on conversational Irish right from junior infants, with the language taught in the same manner as English (French and Spanish largely follow the same mistakes as Irish). There can be no excuses in terms of people who want to learn, after all between RnaG, TG4, Duolingo and availability of social media in Irish, audiovisual resources have never been better. Above all, people have to want to speak Irish in their communities - I don't think I've ever heard the language spoken in Dingle, which is supposed to be the capital of the Kerry Gaeltacht, so developing a bilingual culture in that circumstance is challenging, to say the least.

As long as Irish is made optional in secondary school I can agree with this.

Dughorm

Sand wrote: »

That is the key question: what do we want out of the Irish language? Why do we want it to survive? What is the purpose of spending so much time and money on it?

It certainly doesn't seem to have the purpose of bringing it into daily usage given almost 100 years of compulsory education and various discriminatory laws have failed to achieve that objective.

At this point the Irish government views the Irish language like Liverpool fans view Stephen Gerrard. An exercise in self-deluding nostalgia, with a hard militant edge who think its still relevant.

But it is for nostalgia - I would doubt even the most enthusiastic would expect it to be used as a viable language of commerce for the vast majority of the country.

I think I would prefer if a lot of the funding put towards so many competing quangos and local pressure groups in Gaeltacht areas was put towards free evening classes for the general public who are genuinely interested - it would be a more democratic use of all the funding thrown at the language.

Irelandcool

Create TV animated shows that are exclusively in irish (kind of like japanese anime). etc etc.

Summer wind

In our house when Irish homework is being done all I hear from my husband to the children is "ask your mother". I wonder what he was doing in school during Irish class:) I'm not a fluent Irish speaker but I have enough to get by. I would hate to see the language die out completely because it's ours and ours alone. Hopefully it won't.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

People usually only use the same few hundred words from day to day and ones ability to spell those words has no real bearing on general communication and comprehension.

So I'll just echo what's already been said and say that the number one priority is to teach conversational Irish. Spend 90% of class time learning the language through actual spoken use of it. My written Irish was always at the same level as my spoken Irish (just about okay) which ultimately meant I got on fine in exams but was never really useful for general conversation.

As children we learn how to speak a language by talking it out loud, by interacting with our environment, by making mistakes in 'real time', correcting those mistakes and moving passed them while gaining a little bit more confidence each time in our ability to use words and sentences to express ourselves. Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

OneArt

Knasher wrote: »

I've long been of the opinion that all languages but English are going to decline in the long term. It is the language of the internet and of most mass market entertainment, more and more people learn it as a second language, and unlike people with English as a primary language, they actually have cause to use it.

I doubt other languages will decline dramatically. Russian, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese have more native speakers than English.

What's likely to happen (actually it's happening now) is that there will be two types of English, English as an International Language or trading language and 'native' English. Other major languages will not disappear but probably will (and again, already are) be influenced heavily by English vocabulary-wise, a lot like Latin influenced modern European languages.

Just going by history, it's likely that English will evolve into separate languages like Latin and the English as we know it will become a dead language, recorded in books and beaten into children for decades to come because it had such historical importance. And those unfortunate children will still have to learn Irish.

Blue Badger

Can we not just ban the language? Tell Irish people not to do something and it's the one thing you're guaranteed!!

Sam Kade

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

Sorry, I must have missed it, who blamed the British for this?

How do you think we all started talking English

feargale

wakka12 wrote: »

We should learn from Israel, they successfully revived hebrew in their country and funnily enough used Ireland as a model of how not to revive a dead(ish) language.

There is nothing to be learned from the Israeli model and too much time has been wasted talking about it, while nothing of it has been put into practice because nothing could be.
Israel was composed of a diverse group of people speaking various languages, where a lingua franca was a necessity, and it was as easy to choose Hebrew as the common means of communication as any other language. Contrast that with a small language spoken in isolated pockets on the western edge of a small country competing in a straight contest with the world's number one language, the latter being the everyday language of more than 95% of that small country's small population, and no other language being in the equation.
Few endandered languages have faced such insurmountable odds. I'm sorry that I don't have a cast-iron solution to your aspirations, but one thing I'm sure of - a failure or refusal to recognise realities will do sweet damnall for Irish.

Dughorm

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

Totally agree... and on top of that we spend millions translating government documents 99.5% of the public doesn't want or understand - it's absolutely mental.

Ban the copy book in primary school and make it speaking only - the writing can follow in secondary school like with the foreign languages.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

People usually only use the same few hundred words from day to day and ones ability to spell those words has no real bearing on general communication and comprehension.

So I'll just echo what's already been said and say that the number one priority is to teach conversational Irish. Spend 90% of class time learning the language through actual spoken use of it. My written Irish was always at the same level as my spoken Irish (just about okay) which ultimately meant I got on fine in exams but was never really useful for general conversation.

As children we learn how to speak a language by talking it out loud, by interacting with our environment, by making mistakes in 'real time', correcting those mistakes and moving passed them while gaining a little bit more confidence each time in our ability to use words and sentences to express ourselves. Irish is learned in an unnatural way in school, it is done by mainly listening, rote learning and writing it down with a pencil. This needs to change.

Teaching conversational Irish is obviously, and clearly, the emphasis that can do justice to the language. However, putting 30 students of widely varying ability in a single class, and telling a single teacher to teach and manage that number of teenagers conversing is utterly dishonest. It will never happen. The state knows this. Every student knows this. Every teacher knows this. If people learn English in an EFL class, there will be at most 15 students in each class (I've taught EFL). That is manageable, there a single teacher can monitor and assist in conversation.

30 students to a single teacher is a joke of the most offensive sort. Has anybody ever explained how one teacher can monitor conversation in this context? People blaming the teaching of Irish and demanding conversation classes, without looking at the size of the classes are not joining the dots in a fair way. In short, to teach Irish as a living conversational language requires far smaller classes - just as practical subjects like art and science are all much smaller. This costs more money, so it looks like teachers will be scapegoated for the failure to teach Irish by all the usual suspects. The massive class sizes are the obvious principal problem (optional languages like French and Spanish always had far smaller class numbers than Irish in my school).

The overwhelming amount of money available for Irish should by put into halving the number of students in each class. End the excessive printing jobs and other nonsense and get those classroom numbers down. Then, and only then, will we see a significant improvement. The current system is deeply unfair to teachers of Irish, and it suits all those in power to blame the teachers rather than their refusal to fund realistic class sizes.

languagenerd

I studied sociolinguistics for a while in college and did my dissertation on bilingualism in Spain - it's incredible to see how quickly the minority languages in Spain, particularly Catalan in all its forms, have bounced back after the end of dictatorship. The languages were banned for decades, but now in some of the Catalan-speaking regions, almost everyone is bilingual in Catalan and Spanish (regions that only officially became bilingual in the 80s).

I think we should look at how they did it and see if Irish can be taught that way. Kids there do some subjects through Spanish and some through Catalan so they pick it up naturally as they go along. I wonder if something like that could work in Irish primary schools - teach things a couple subjects through Irish and get the kids talking (Art would be a good one. Maybe one of the social sciences as well.)

My Irish teacher in secondary school (in 2008ish) admitted to us that she wasn't able to teach us a love for the language, because the curriculum didn't allow it. Too much literature, not enough conversation or just free thinking. I know it's changed since (oral exam is now worth 40% I think), but not enough. The level most people have upon leaving primary is not enough for a literature/essay-heavy secondary one.

Learning a second language makes it easier to learn more languages, gives you new perspectives and teaches you certain problem-solving skills. Irish might enrich our identity as well, if we wanted it. I can't see it happening at this stage though, unless there's a big push on speaking it in social settings.

Reiver

People lump us in with the Brits and Yanks often enough as it is. Having our own language is something distinct at least. Working in my fifth country right now and I always get disbelieving looks when I say most people don't speak Irish in Ireland. I'm always surprised at the vitriol that can be directed towards it at times.

One of the oldest living languages in Europe with a written tradition. Without an understanding of Irish you can't appreciate the meaning of the majority of our placenames, the majority of our mountains are Irish named, it's where I first got the interest.

I've heard it said that the perversity of Irish mentality means that if we were to ban the language and imprison those using it, we'd have the language brought back from the brink in a fortnight.

Sad to hear the Gaeltachts are finally on their last legs though they did always have that air of "oh lets go see where people speak Irish". There are still thousands of native speakers scattered across the island, just in the Galltacht. Its tough for a language to keep going when it's no longer a community one.

I can understand people saying its a fringe language and of little use and that we should be learning Mandarin/Spanish/Whatever. Look at the figures for languages in Ireland though. Abysmal. One of the lowest in Europe because "everyone speaks English". Learning a second language in school from an early age is great and as someone who is learning his 4th language at the moment, I can assure you that learning one language really helps with learning others!

I don't want to see it become the purview of the middle classes and seen as a bit of snobbery "o well we speak Irish". It is the national language and something that shouldn't be let go. Obviously reform is needed in education. An Triail for all it's acclaim is not something teenagers should have to write essays on when they can't even hold a conversation in the language. I'm teaching English right now and it's not hard to get someone communicative in a language with a bit of practice. As has been pointed out, Welsh, Hebrew, Catalan all manage to survive and thrive.