The Irish language is failing.

Un Croissant · 29-05-2015 7:40pm #1

Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

I dont want to get into a debate with the misty eyed brigade about Irish being our first language etc.

Languages are only relevant if they are used. History or nationalism doesn't appear to be enough.

So with that in mind, how can we improve the position of Irish? Do we want to?

While it will never be our first language again, considering mass culture and the internet age, is there a case to be made for a strong second language?

Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.

EoghanIRL · 29-05-2015 7:44pm

Annual Irish bashing thread.

Un Croissant · 29-05-2015 7:47pm

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Annual Irish bashing thread.

A hand of friendship was extended to the Irish language. To help in survive and grow, but Eoghan slaps it away.

mikeym · 29-05-2015 7:51pm

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

Banjoxed · 29-05-2015 7:53pm

mikeym wrote: »

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

Think the problems that the Irish language have are too deep seated for it to matter a damn who the minister is. Generations of us under all governments were taught the language badly and left school with no love for what was an obligation.

RayM · 29-05-2015 7:57pm

mikeym wrote: »

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

He thinks it's uafásach!

(unless he wasn't an avid viewer of Bosco as a child. In which case, he thinks it's terrible)

Grayson · 29-05-2015 7:58pm

Cueva wrote: »

Teach it properly, tell children to use the duolingo app to learn Irish as well.

That's true. There's always an argument about whether or not it's "worth" saving. It always decends into an argument about how it enriches people or how it makes people "more" Irish.

The simple fact is that we have been teaching it to kids for decades and we've been teaching it badly. We leave school knowing foreign languages better and we spend less than half the time learning them.

We can only have an argument about whether or not it should be saved if we already know it can be saved. And so far we've been absolutely useless at teaching it.

Knasher · 29-05-2015 8:03pm

I've long been of the opinion that all languages but English are going to decline in the long term. It is the language of the internet and of most mass market entertainment, more and more people learn it as a second language, and unlike people with English as a primary language, they actually have cause to use it.

Technology could be the end of other languages, but recently I've though that it could also be its salvation. Translation software has advanced incredibly fast. It is far more accurate than it was 5 years ago. Voice syntasis sounds a lot more natural. It isn't inconceivable that in 20 years, you could choose to talk to anybody in the world in Irish, or read any website, or watch any TV show. If Irish were a language that I could have used as part of my daily life, then I think I would probably still be able to speak it today. If the technology ever gets us there, then I think the romanticism of it could see it have a resurgence.

But honestly, that is the only hope I hold for it.

Slutmonkey57b · 29-05-2015 8:06pm

"It's all because it's badly taught!"

If only Irish speakers had been in charge of deciding how it was taught for the last 100 years!

Those pesky Brits!

Timberrrrrrrr · 29-05-2015 8:09pm

mikeym wrote: »

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

And you don't speak English very well

wendell borton · 29-05-2015 8:11pm

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 29-05-2015 8:11pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

"It's all because it's badly taught!"

If only Irish speakers had been in charge of deciding how it was taught for the last 100 years!

Those pesky Brits!

Sorry, I must have missed it, who blamed the British for this?

seanin4711 · 29-05-2015 8:12pm

when its bet into you

ancapailldorcha · 29-05-2015 8:12pm

Give people the choice on whether to learn it or not. Most will refuse I expect but those who decide to learn the language will likely attain a better standard of fluency due to their interest in it and their culture. These individuals would also make for excellent teachers of the language.

The current system of spending ridiculous amounts of time, resources and taxpayers' money forcing it down pupils' throats is woefully inadequate. Time children should be using to learn practical real world skills such as coding, science, critical thinking and so on is wasted on inadequate instruction in a language barely spoken in the country. It also breeds resentment for the language which is a shame. Our education system needs a serious overhaul and I'm not alone in thinking this.

Aongus Von Bismarck · 29-05-2015 8:13pm

I like the Irish language and hope it doesn't disappear. I'm not very good at reading or speaking it myself, but I have noticed that my favourite Irish writers working with the English language have all come from native or fluent Irish speaking backgrounds.

Flann O'Brien, Con Houlihan, John B. Keane.

There's a lovely cant to how they wrote.

Gatling · 29-05-2015 8:17pm

If anything it's growing. It's dipping at gealtrach areas possibly due to emigration amongst the younger generations.
My kids are fluent and learning at 6 and 3 respectively .
For some moans about how it was taught is a cop out imo people just aren't motivated to learn for many in my generation 35+ many were told by there parents you don't need it ,why would you want to learn a dying language.
My kids came through a irish parent and toddlers group and on to naoinra where it's taught using high scope learning and learning thorough play.
It's been taught at universities in the states and growing in popularity there

UCDVet · 29-05-2015 8:17pm

I was absolutely amazed at how quickly and effectively my phone can translate languages. I went to France and I could record people talking in French, and read it in English, I could snap pictures of signs in French and see it in English, and I can type something in English and have it read aloud in French.

I can only imagine how much better it'll be in 10 years.

I just don't see any point in learning a second language these days.

WesternZulu · 29-05-2015 8:25pm

The Irish language could learn a lot from their Celtic cousins across the water in Wales.

In 1962 a Welsh language activist called Saunders Lewis delivered a speech on radio about the imminent death of the language unless action was taken.

The Welsh language has grown in strength since. I live in Wales and hear it every day without fail...and to be honest I am quite jealous that they have that and Ireland doesn't.

Too much time is spent on old stories and poems in Irish when more time should be spend on actually being able to have full blown conversation in the language itself.

It seems that in Wales more time is given to conversational language rather than the written word and this has allowed the language to prosper. I've often heard fluent Welsh speakers say that their comprehension of written text to be poor...but so what, they are keeping the language alive though daily dialogue.

Iwasfrozen · 29-05-2015 8:29pm

Un Croissant wrote: »

Just watching the news and the Irish language is failing, even in the Gaeltacht.

I dont want to get into a debate with the misty eyed brigade about Irish being our first language etc.

Languages are only relevant if they are used. History or nationalism doesn't appear to be enough.

So with that in mind, how can we improve the position of Irish? Do we want to?

While it will never be our first language again, considering mass culture and the internet age, is there a case to be made for a strong second language?

Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.

Irish is dying and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Let it die. We'll mourn it when it's gone.

Tombi! · 29-05-2015 8:32pm

I don't know if it's dying. I'd say maybe people aren't living in a gaelteacht, sure and in that case the people who only use it as a language and not another language are dying. But I've known international people to have an interest in the language as well.
Plus with Irish music being reasonably popular, I'd also argue that bands do try to translate songs into English or even learn it in Irish.

I'd like to see more gaelscoils. That's schools where all subjects (except English) are taught through Irish. Obviously English is accepted at times and the goal is to learn the subjects in general but I feel that most people, if they attend both a primary and secondary gaelscoil will still have the language if they make a genuine effort long after they leave school.

I never attended a secondary school that spoke English, I was in a gaelscoil so I can't comment on how it was taught in English speaking schools but I will say that using it daily really does help you maintain a memory of it. I still have my Irish and it's reasonably decent. I'm quite sure in a few weeks of practice I'd be fluent.

I left school around 8 years ago I think. And I just recently started seeing how good my Irish is after not using it and I was very surprised at my ability.

Shep_Dog · 29-05-2015 8:34pm

Gatling wrote: »

If anything it's growing. It's dipping at gealtrach areas possibly due to emigration amongst the younger generations.

It's failing in the Gaeltact areas because of movement of of English-speakers into those areas. Jobs too would be an issue. Outside of state-funded Irish-language jobs, all the good jobs are for people who speak English.

To maintain an Irish-speaking community, one would have be very determined to exclude outside influences. M. Night Shyamalan's 'The Village' could be the blueprint for the survival of Irish in the future.

tipparetops · 29-05-2015 8:36pm

the Irish language is not growing.
the reason it is not growing is down to parents and teachers. Most parents dont care and most teachers cant teach it because they dont fully speak it.
the other problem with the language is that there is a snobbery with some of the speakers, a middle class snobbery, begging the question whos language is it.

Edgarfrndly · 29-05-2015 8:43pm

The Irish language could only recover if something genuine is done to improve the curriculum. Forcing children to spent 13 or 14 years remember trivial nonsense isn't going to reduce their apathy for the language. Introduce a conversational Irish class, which actually fosters an environment to speak the language is the only way to stop it's decline.

The biggest barrier to learning any language isn't grammar, poetry, tenses or irregular verbs. It's confidence. Being confident enough to use whatever you have, without fear of being corrected every 10 seconds.

I had a great conversation with Benny the Irish Polyglot about improving the Irish curriculum a year or two ago - and we agreed that there needs to be a huge shift towards spoken Irish, and less focus on syntax and grammar.

my teapot is orange · 29-05-2015 8:50pm

It raises the bigger question of should we be teaching it at all. I read on another forum recently how foreign science students in Ireland are amazed that first year of undergrad degrees is spent bringing everyone up to the level that they were at in school. There isn't much ICT or technology teaching in school and I think nowadays more and more people are going to need this even where it isn't there core role. That 40 minutes every day could be put to better use. The education system should be preparing students as best it can for the world they live in today, not pandering to the sentimental or political ideas from the past.

Boom__Boom · 29-05-2015 8:59pm

The most reliable data the census actually showed a percentage decline in the people who speak Irish on a daily basis between 2006 and 2011.

The number of speakers increased slightly but it didn’t increase by as much as the overall population increased.

The most relevant aspect of the census was the difference between the number who said that speak Irish on a daily basis and the number who said they were fluent.

There was 1.77 million people in 2011 who said they could speak Irish.
The number who said they speak it on a daily basis was 77,185.
This works out as less than 5% of those who say they can speak Irish speaking it on a daily basis.

Basically 19 out of the 20 people who say they can speak Irish choose not to do so on a daily basis. That’s before you even look at the other 2.8 million who say that can’t speak Irish.

The overall population was 4,581,269 which mean that the percentage who speak it daily (77,185) works out at 1.68%. If everyone who says that can speak Irish spoke it on a daily basis that percentage would be 38.64%

Blaming education is a massive cop-out. The situation is that over 95% of the people who say they can speak the language don’t do so on a daily basis, which to me says that the simple fact is that the Irish people simply choose not to speak Irish.

If people think that Gaelscoileanna are going to change these percentages much, they need to speak to the teachers there about how much the pupils there use Irish outside the schools.

tipparetops · 29-05-2015 9:04pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The most reliable data the census actually showed a percentage decline in the people who speak Irish on a daily basis between 2006 and 2011.

The number of speakers increased slightly but it didn’t increase by as much as the overall population increased.

The most relevant aspect of the census was the difference between the number who said that speak Irish on a daily basis and the number who said they were fluent.

There was 1.77 million people in 2011 who said they could speak Irish.
The number who said they speak it on a daily basis was 77,185.
This works out as less than 5% of those who say they can speak Irish speaking it on a daily basis.

Basically 19 out of the 20 people who say they can speak Irish choose not to do so on a daily basis. That’s before you even look at the other 2.8 million who say that can’t speak Irish.

The overall population was 4,581,269 which mean that the percentage who speak it daily (77,185) works out at 1.68%. If everyone who says that can speak Irish spoke it on a daily basis that percentage would be 38.64%

Blaming education is a massive cop-out. The situation is that over 95% of the people who say they can speak the language don’t do so on a daily basis, which to me says that the simple fact is that the Irish people simply choose not to speak Irish.

If people think that Gaelscoileanna are going to change these percentages much, they need to speak to the teachers there about how much the pupils there use Irish outside the schools.

1.77 million, we really are a nation of fibbers.

Boom__Boom · 29-05-2015 9:08pm

tipparetops wrote: »

1.77 million, we really are a nation of fibbers.

Yeah I can see if being a bit exaggerated, but the main point still stands.

A huge huge number of people who say they can speak Irish simply don't do so in their daily life.

Really don't see changes in the way Irish is taught education changing that.

ancapailldorcha · 29-05-2015 9:09pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

The most reliable data the census actually showed a percentage decline in the people who speak Irish on a daily basis between 2006 and 2011.

The number of speakers increased slightly but it didn’t increase by as much as the overall population increased.

The most relevant aspect of the census was the difference between the number who said that speak Irish on a daily basis and the number who said they were fluent.

There was 1.77 million people in 2011 who said they could speak Irish.
The number who said they speak it on a daily basis was 77,185.
This works out as less than 5% of those who say they can speak Irish speaking it on a daily basis.

Basically 19 out of the 20 people who say they can speak Irish choose not to do so on a daily basis. That’s before you even look at the other 2.8 million who say that can’t speak Irish.

The overall population was 4,581,269 which mean that the percentage who speak it daily (77,185) works out at 1.68%. If everyone who says that can speak Irish spoke it on a daily basis that percentage would be 38.64%

Blaming education is a massive cop-out. The situation is that over 95% of the people who say they can speak the language don’t do so on a daily basis, which to me says that the simple fact is that the Irish people simply choose not to speak Irish.

If people think that Gaelscoileanna are going to change these percentages much, they need to speak to the teachers there about how much the pupils there use Irish outside the schools.

I grew up in Donegal and I knew of 2 fluent speakers. 2. You haven't backed your claims up with any sort of evidence and, to be honest saying that over 95% of the people who say they can speak Irish are actually fluent is absurd.

Boom__Boom · 29-05-2015 9:12pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I grew up in Donegal and I knew of 2 fluent speakers. 2. You haven't backed your claims up with any sort of evidence and, to be honest saying that over 95% of the people who say they can speak Irish are actually fluent is absurd.

The figures I used are from the 2006 and 2011 census.

cso.ie

tipparetops · 29-05-2015 9:13pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Yeah I can see if being a bit exaggerated, but the main point still stands.

A huge huge number of people who say they can speak Irish simply don't do so in their daily life.

Really don't see changes in the way Irish is taught education changing that.

a bit exaggerated, I reckon 1.7 million exaggerated.

Boom__Boom · 29-05-2015 9:17pm

tipparetops wrote: »

a bit exaggerated, I reckon 1.7 million exaggerated.

Look the figures are from the census.

I have no doubt that the 1.77 million figure is somewhat exaggerated.

I also have no doubt that the 77,185 daily speaker figure is exaggerated. [although not by as much as those who say they can speak Irish]

However it is the best evidence available, and trying to estimate how much the exaggeration of both figures is pointless and literally pure speculation.

The basic point is that there are vast vast numbers of people who say they can speak Irish who don't do so on a daily basis.

The Irish language is failing.

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