Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

awec

total former wrote: »

A bit of poetic licence perhaps, but he's behind Bowe, Dave Kearney, Trimble, Zebo, Earls, Fitzgerald and McFadden.

Yea but the discussion is whether or not he really should be behind a few of those names, especially if he continues to be the most prolific Irish winger.

I don't think so.

Buer

awec wrote: »

We heard the exact same thing about Trimble a few years ago when he was continually over looked. Can't defend, can't attack, can't catch high balls, not enough pace, etc etc until he gets his chance and it turns out he's actually brilliant.

Honestly, I bet if you go back and look you'll find people who were screaming for Trimble to be first choice going to the last RWC. The only years since 2005 that he hasn't picked up multiple caps were 2009 and 2013 and he'll pass the 60 cap mark very soon.

I don't think Gilroy and Trimble were ever in the same bracket, to be honest. Completely different players.

I'm joking of course......

They're both brutal kickers.

:pac:

Buer

awec wrote: »

Yea but the discussion is whether or not he really should be behind a few of those names, especially if he continues to be the most prolific Irish winger.

I don't think so.

To play devil's advocate, I'd say you could genuinely take your argument and apply it to Fionn Carr. He was Ireland's most prolific winger too (I assume you mean try scoring when you say prolific).

Should he have been in the Irish 23 on that basis?

total former

Buer wrote: »

Honestly, I bet if you go back and look you'll find people who were screaming for Trimble to be first choice going to the last RWC. The only years since 2005 that he hasn't picked up multiple caps were 2009 and 2013 and he'll pass the 60 cap mark very soon.

I don't think Gilroy and Trimble were ever in the same bracket, to be honest. Completely different players.

I'm joking of course......

They're both brutal kickers.

:pac:

Yeah, Trimble got shafted at the 2011 RWC, was in much better form than Earls but Kidney really liked Earls. Trimble was then overlooked for the first three games of the Joe era, whereas Gilroy has been overlooked for the first two years of it...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

total former wrote: »

Yeah, Trimble got shafted at the 2011 RWC, was in much better form than Earls but Kidney really liked Earls. Trimble was then overlooked for the first three games of the Joe era, whereas Gilroy has been overlooked for the first two years of it...

So has Trimble never made it into a WC squad?

total former

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

So has Trimble never made it into a WC squad?

He's been in two of them, but should have been starting in 2011.

bilston

total former wrote: »

He's been in two of them, but should have been starting in 2011.

The 2011 WC is a bit of a blur to me as I had a newborn at the time and it was on at silly times but yes now you mention Trimble was very unlucky not to be first choice at that WC.

Ironically in 2007 he started ahead of Hickie (against France) when arguably he probably shouldn't have.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

This Trimble situation continues to bother me. I know it's done now and there's no point discussing it to death but it just makes no sense. Or at least the reasons given make no sense.

I know playing an Osprey's side missing any internationals is not the same as playing against France but it is kind of the same as playing against Canada or Romania. No offence, Ospreys

I just hope we don't end up in a situation where this decision ends up making Schmidt look stupid. If we're going into the France game with none of our wingers looking great and Trimble has been having a blinder for Ulster it'll be awkward.

bilston

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

This Trimble situation continues to bother me. I know it's done now and there's no point discussing it to death but it just makes no sense. Or at least the reasons given make no sense.

I know playing an Osprey's side missing any internationals is not the same as playing against France but it is kind of the same as playing against Canada or Romania. No offence, Ospreys

I just hope we don't end up in a situation where this decision ends up making Schmidt look stupid. If we're going into the France game with none of our wingers looking great and Trimble has been having a blinder for Ulster it'll be awkward.

He was good against the Ospreys but I'm not sure he was at 100%. That will come over the next couple of weeks.

jacothelad

mfceiling wrote: »

Water/harp...pretty much the same tbh!!

You're taking the water.....

jacothelad

awec wrote: »

If Gilroy continues to score tries at the same rate as he has done then he must surely come under serious consideration.

Wears the wrong jersey, scores too many tries, doesn't get injured enough..........:D

awec

Ireland's loss is Ulster's gain if he is still overlooked post World Cup.

jacothelad

awec wrote: »

IMO he deserves his chance. He is a better winger than a few on that list (and to avoid the undoubted controversy I'm not going to be specific!)

We heard the exact same thing about Trimble a few years ago when he was continually over looked. Can't defend, can't attack, can't catch high balls, not enough pace, etc etc until he got his chance and it turned out he's actually brilliant.

Yes, it's the usual balls some punters spew in order to big up someone else. Gilroy is in fact a very good defender, has quite a good kicking game, has plenty of pace, has good awareness of others and when to pass, is excellent in the air and when played in the green shirt has done well but it's easy to simply claim the opposite. These facts don't fit the agenda of others. The cry is then taken up and hey presto it becomes the accepted wisdom and a player is damned.

The opposite is also true when a player is exalted to the heavens when in fact he is pretty average - and I don't mean Dave who is very good indeed. We have seen players who are pretty useless at their primary job being praised to the heavens for something else. Then all sorts of contortions are gone through to make excuses for them and keep them in their exalted position.

total former

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes, it's the usual balls some punters spew in order to big up someone else. Gilroy is in fact a very good defender, has quite a good kicking game, has plenty of pace, has good awareness of others and when to pass, is excellent in the air and when played in the green shirt has done well but it's easy to simply claim the opposite. These facts don't fit the agenda of others. The cry is then taken up and hey presto it becomes the accepted wisdom and a player is damned.

Honest question; if Gilroy is such a good all-round player, why is he so far down the pecking order? If the "balls" that are being "spewed" about him are so wide of the mark, what is it about him that is lacking?

shuffol

total former wrote: »

Honest question; if Gilroy is such a good all-round player, why is he so far down the pecking order? If the "balls" that are being "spewed" about him are so wide of the mark, what is it about him that is lacking?

His face obviously doesn't fit.

bilston

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Ulster backline post WC.

Half backs are nailed on. Pienaar and Jackson

Centres
Loads of options. Olding is coming back from a serious so may be used sparingly. Arnold is a great prospect but has time on his side and probably won't factor beyond injuries and Ireland duties for others. So that leaves the rising star in McCloskey, Marshall who is getting back to form and Cave and Payne. The smart money is on Cave and Payne being the midfield but I think it could be difficult to leave McCloskey out of the team the way things are going.

Back Three
Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy. Pick two from that three. Some are quick to say that Gilroy is way down the pecking order but he is actually very close to all those players ahead of him. If he keeps his place on the Ulster team he won't be far away for Ireland.

Full Back
Move Payne to 15 to accomodate McCloskey?
Or keep Ludik who will never let us down?

Magico Gonzalez

bilston wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Ulster backline post WC.

Half backs are nailed on. Pienaar and Jackson

Centres
Loads of options. Olding is coming back from a serious so may be used sparingly. Arnold is a great prospect but has time on his side and probably won't factor beyond injuries and Ireland duties for others. So that leaves the rising star in McCloskey, Marshall who is getting back to form and Cave and Payne. The smart money is on Cave and Payne being the midfield but I think it could be difficult to leave McCloskey out of the team the way things are going.

Back Three
Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy. Pick two from that three. Some are quick to say that Gilroy is way down the pecking order but he is actually very close to all those players ahead of him. If he keeps his place on the Ulster team he won't be far away for Ireland.

Full Back
Move Payne to 15 to accomodate McCloskey?
Or keep Ludik who will never let us down?

The 2 Ulster centres who went to the WC are possibly the 2 that I would like to see less and less of in that position in the coming years.

Hoping to see a lot more of Mcloskey-Olding in future, if Olding is going to be fully fit.

bilston

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The 2 Ulster centres who went to the WC are possibly the 2 that I would like to see less and less of in that position in the coming years.

Hoping to see a lot more of Mcloskey-Olding in future, if Olding is going to be fully fit.

Aye, I'd like to see Olding tried at 13 when he comes back, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved to 15 to try and keep him out of the heavy traffic he faces at 12 to protect his knee.

awec

If we shunt Olding to 15 and keep playing Payne at 13 then Doak and Kiss should be escorted out of Ravenhill and the gates locked behind them.

CatFromHue

Where did Olding play at under age level? At Senior level he seems to have been tried all over the place.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

Where did Olding play at under age level? At Senior level he seems to have been tried all over the place.

In the 2013 6N he started two games at full back. He missed the other games and the JWC.

In the 2012 6N he got three appearances from the bench replacing players at 15, 12 and 10. In the JWC he got two starts at outside centre and came on at full back and wing in other games.

In conclusion, he played all over the place, slotting in where needed but was injured a hell of a lot....essentially identical to his senior career to date.

Magico Gonzalez

awec wrote: »

If we shunt Olding to 15 and keep playing Payne at 13 then Doak and Kiss should be escorted out of Ravenhill and the gates locked behind them.

If rory scholes is to get any time at 15 then that would be an even stranger decision

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes, it's the usual balls some punters spew in order to big up someone else. Gilroy.....has quite a good kicking game,. .

Jaco, you cannot believe this?

Maybe every Ulster game I've missed has been a performance par excellence but whenever I've seen him put boot to ball (and I'd watch a solid amount of Ulster's games) he has an uncanny ability to send it far away from any chasers or touchline and launch opposition attacks.

Himself and Shane Horgan must have gone to kicking school together. I'd rate him as probably the most unreliable kicker from hand of any current Irish winger (possibly McFadden).

The guy has a lot of attributes and is a good player but if he was all the things you said he was, he'd be in the mix for a Lions call up because no Irish winger is currently all of those.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

Jaco, you cannot believe this?

Maybe every Ulster game I've missed has been a performance par excellence but whenever I've seen him put boot to ball (and I'd watch a solid amount of Ulster's games) he has an uncanny ability to send it far away from any chasers or touchline and launch opposition attacks.

Himself and Shane Horgan must have gone to kicking school together. I'd rate him as probably the most unreliable kicker from hand of any current Irish winger (possibly McFadden).

Gilroy's kicking from FB is very good. His kicking from the wing is or was a work in progress (I can't remember him kicking much from the wing recently). Of course from FB you have more of the field to aim at.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Jaco, you cannot believe this?

Maybe every Ulster game I've missed has been a performance par excellence but whenever I've seen him put boot to ball (and I'd watch a solid amount of Ulster's games) he has an uncanny ability to send it far away from any chasers or touchline and launch opposition attacks.

Himself and Shane Horgan must have gone to kicking school together. I'd rate him as probably the most unreliable kicker from hand of any current Irish winger (possibly McFadden).

I agree with you, he always strikes me as a very dodgy kicker indeed. I've seen most of Ulsters games in recent years thanks to BBC NI so I don't THINK I'm missing anything.

Mind you Trimble isn't exactly a great kicker, unless I'm forgetting an improvement in that side of his game before his injury issues.

jacothelad

Buer wrote: »

Jaco, you cannot believe this?

Maybe every Ulster game I've missed has been a performance par excellence but whenever I've seen him put boot to ball (and I'd watch a solid amount of Ulster's games) he has an uncanny ability to send it far away from any chasers or touchline and launch opposition attacks.

Himself and Shane Horgan must have gone to kicking school together. I'd rate him as probably the most unreliable kicker from hand of any current Irish winger (possibly McFadden).

The guy has a lot of attributes and is a good player but if he was all the things you said he was, he'd be in the mix for a Lions call up because no Irish winger is currently all of those.

Gilroy has played full back a few times and was not found wanting in terms of either defence or kicking. Criticism of his kicking is just knee jerk following of the fool, Hook who declared that Gilroy was awful at it an the international against Wales. A load of people jumped on the bandwagon and Hook's rubbish became their accepted wisdom. His kicks were - all 3 of them - no better or worse than anything we saw that day from the likes of Rob Kearney or certainly anything we saw against England or Wales over the last few weeks. It's amazing how some people's flaws = or simply poor performances are excused while others have absolutely no lee way given.

And by the way I simply said that he was good at the things he is supposed to be good at despite many claiming the contrary. You won't find in any of my posts that I think he should be in the RWC squad although he could be. Nowhere did I say he was outstanding at everything...perhaps scoring might be his best attribute but we know that this is of little importance in a winger....so I've been told on this forum.

total former

jacothelad wrote: »

Gilroy has played full back a few times and was not found wanting in terms of either defence or kicking. Criticism of his kicking is just knee jerk following of the fool, Hook who declared that Gilroy was awful at it an the international against Wales. A load of people jumped on the bandwagon and Hook's rubbish became their accepted wisdom. His kicks were - all 3 of them - no better or worse than anything we saw that day from the likes of Rob Kearney or certainly anything we saw against England or Wales over the last few weeks. It's amazing how some people's flaws = or simply poor performances are excused while others have absolutely no lee way given.

And by the way I simply said that he was good at the things he is supposed to be good at despite many claiming the contrary. You won't find in any of my posts that I think he should be in the RWC squad although he could be. Nowhere did I say he was outstanding at everything...perhaps scoring might be his best attribute but we know that this is of little importance in a winger....so I've been told on this forum.

See, that's just a load more invective against people who dared to point out potential flaws in his game, without giving any of your own opinions as to what said flaws might be.

So again (because I asked yesterday), why do you think he is so far back in the national coach's thinking?

irishbucsfan

I think Gilroy's kicking is a weakness and it has nothing to do with George Hook or any other bandwagon, and it's based on his play for Ulster.

total former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think Gilroy's kicking is a weakness and it has nothing to do with George Hook or any other bandwagon, and it's based on his play for Ulster.

I don't think his kicking has anything to do with it tbh; McFadden, Fitzgerald, Trimble, Earls - none of them are particularly good kickers from hand but it hasn't held them back under Joe.

irishbucsfan

total former wrote: »

I don't think his kicking has anything to do with it tbh; McFadden, Fitzgerald, Trimble, Earls - none of them are particularly good kickers from hand but it hasn't held them back under Joe.

Well Fitzgerald is a good kicker from hand but what's more relevant than that is their decision making around when to kick it and when to keep it in hand.