Home to Vote

threebagsfull

Sorry if this is answered elsewhere, but I couldn't find it.

I've thought about coming home to vote before but assumed that as I was residing abroad I wouldn't technically be allowed. I thought I'd get away with it as they probably wouldn't remember in the polling station that I'd been away but I never tried it.

My question is whether everyone coming home to vote is actually allowed to or is it just that they're still on the register and it would be hard to keep tabs on where people reside?

*I do actually think people who live abroad should be allowed to vote, and that's what we really should be voting on today, as recommended by the Constitutional Convention, rather than the minimum age for Presidential Candidacy.

meglome

Bottom line in any referendum people come back from abroad who shouldn't be voting. Everyone is aware it's going on but no one has done anything about it.

Spook_ie

If someone is willing to travel home to vote then I believe their vote is important, I wouldn't ascribe the same importance to someone allowed a postal vote

munchkin_utd

Spook_ie wrote: »

If someone is willing to travel home to vote then I believe their vote is important, I wouldn't ascribe the same importance to someone allowed a postal vote

so breaking the law is grand, because you went to a great trouble to break the law ?

Spook_ie

munchkin_utd wrote: »

so breaking the law is grand, because you went to a great trouble to break the law ?

I didn't say it was legal, I did say that if someone were so convinced of their support of a vote that if they travelled home to vote it should have more importance than someone ticking a card and posting it

munchkin_utd

actually,
suppose a whole load from northern ireland were registered incorrectly.

And whether catholic or Protestant, they have a view that is more influenced by their faith than the population in the 26 counties, and suppose they made the effort and came down to vote in person (illegally), quite possibly with a NO ?

Would you applaud that too ?

Bob24

threebagsfull wrote: »

*I do actually think people who live abroad should be allowed to vote, and that's what we really should be voting on today, as recommended by the Constitutional Convention, rather than the minimum age for Presidential Candidacy.

Absolutely agreed on principle and many countries are doing that already.

However I think Ireland should be a bit more cautious with how it is granting citizenship then. Having someone who grew up in Ireland and moved abroad or who is of Irish descent and has genuine and current family and/or business connections to Ireland vote to decide the future of this country is all very well. But giving voting rights to a VERY large number of US and British citizens who don't have any connection to Ireland aside from the fact that one of their grand parents was born somewhere on this island would be a genuine concern.

munchkin_utd

Bob24 wrote: »

Absolutely agreed on principle.

However I think Ireland should be a bit more cautious with how it is granting citizenship then. Having someone who grow up in Ireland and moved abroad or who has strong tights to Ireland vote to decide the future of this country is fine. Giving voting rights to a VERY large number of US and British citizens who don't have and connection to Ireland aside from the fact that one of their grand parents was born somewhere on this Island would be a genuine concern.

+1
Limiting the vote to those with a tangiable connnection to the country isn't difficult and other countries already have such systems in place.

For instance to vote in the German elections you have to have a provable period of residence inside Germany.
(in Ireland this could be done through producing PPS nr, or School records to show you've lived in the 26 counties)

OR, the british system which is simply that you stay on the electoral register for 12 years or so after you leave the country, and then you have a postal vote, but youre voting in the constituency you last lived in.

a vote in Dail elections is probably too much (despite the fact that people abroad can vote in seanad elections!!!!!!), but allowing emmigrants/ citizens abroad to LEGALLY! vote in the presidental elections would be a start.

expectationlost

Electoral Act, 1992 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/act/pub/0023/sec0011.html#sec11

(a) a person shall be deemed not to have given up ordinary residence if he intends to resume residence within eighteen months after giving it up,

and ordinary residence is http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/moving_country_and_taxation/tax_residence_and_domicile_in_ireland.html

Ordinary residence

Your pattern of residence over a number of years is taken into account to decide your ‘ordinary residence’.
If you have been resident for the previous three tax years then you become ordinarily resident from the start of the fourth year. If you leave the country, you will continue to be ordinarily resident until you have been non-resident for three continuous tax years.

seeing lots of people saying ordinary residence on septmeber 1st but do you have to have be actually living here, or youstill classified as ordinary resident by virture of having lived/paid taxes here 3 years before.

here the dept of environment on http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1897,en.pdf

Residence
: a person must be ordinarily resident at the address in question on 1st September preceding the coming into force of the register.
A person may be registeredat one address only.If a person has more than one address (e.g. a person living away from home to attend college), the registration authority should be
informed of the address at which the person wishes to be registered.
A person who leaves his/her ordinary residence with the intention of returning there within eighteen months can continue to be registered there, subject to the over-riding condition that a person may be registered at one address only. A person who is absent on a temporary basis from his/her ordinary address, for example on holiday, in hospital or in the course of employment, should be registered at his/her ordinary address. A visitor or person staying temporarily at the address should not be registered

that doc doesn't explain what ordinary resident is.

expectationlost

munchkin_utd wrote: »

+1
Limiting the vote to those with a tangiable connnection to the country isn't difficult and other countries already have such systems in place.

For instance to vote in the German elections you have to have a provable period of residence inside Germany.
(in Ireland this could be done through producing PPS nr, or School records to show you've lived in the 26 counties)

OR, the british system which is simply that you stay on the electoral register for 12 years or so after you leave the country, and then you have a postal vote, but youre voting in the constituency you last lived in.

a vote in Dail elections is probably too much (despite the fact that people abroad can vote in seanad elections!!!!!!), but allowing emmigrants/ citizens abroad to LEGALLY! vote in the presidental elections would be a start.

lots of people saying we can't giving all those people with irish passports a vote, its will be too many but don't mention that many countries time limit it

the current seanad reform plan includes a vote for citizens abroad

uck51js9zml2yt

If you are on the register to vote you are entitled to vote were you are registered.
If you live in a different county to where you are registered you can only vote in that county.
Proof of new address doesn't count as you are not registered for where youcare now living.

My wife went home to vote In a referendum in February.

Bob24

munchkin_utd wrote: »

a vote in Dail elections is probably too much (despite the fact that people abroad can vote in seanad elections!!!!!!), but allowing emmigrants/ citizens abroad to LEGALLY! vote in the presidental elections would be a start.

With regards to the Dail, one option would be to have one or more constituencies for citizens living abroad (this is what France is doing for its National Assembly, and basically you have a few TDs whose role is to represent citizens living abroad).
There are pros and cons in doing this - but if we were to let citizens residing abroad vote in Dail elections I would personal favour that solution (as long as it doesn't mean half the Dail is representing people who are living abroad - the Irish diaspora is probably much larger than the French one related to the population of the country :-)).

Having said that - agreed with you in that Presidential elections would be a much more obvious choice to start.

nice_guy80

I wonder does Denis O'Brien get a vote, seeing as he's not tax resident

Or Bono
Or a host of other rich people

expectationlost

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I wonder does Denis O'Brien get a vote, seeing as he's not tax resident

Or Bono
Or a host of other rich people

Bono is tax resident here afaik, its U2 publishing business that isn't.

threebagsfull

Bob24 wrote: »

However I think Ireland should be a bit more cautious with how it is granting citizenship then. Having someone who grew up in Ireland and moved abroad or who is of Irish descent and has genuine and current family and/or business connections to Ireland vote to decide the future of this country is all very well. But giving voting rights to a VERY large number of US and British citizens who don't have any connection to Ireland aside from the fact that one of their grand parents was born somewhere on this island would be a genuine concern.

People keep coming out with this like as if there's no way around that - All or nothing. Obviously they can time limit it.

But I don't think they will ever bring this to referendum because the people who emigrated are more likely to be watching the news to see when it's ok to come home (never).

munchkin_utd

threebagsfull wrote: »

People keep coming out with this like as if there's no way around that - All or nothing. Obviously they can time limit it.

But I don't think they will ever bring this to referendum because the people who emigrated are more likely to be watching the news to see when it's ok to come home (never).

also, this mythical figure of the 2nd Generation yank who will vote in numbers in Ireland. Do we seriously think that'll happen?

People living in Ireland who stand to gain by voting the party into power offering the most free-bes (because thats all Irish politics is to many), dont vote.

Why on earth would a yank (supposing 2nd generation and beyond could vote)
- firstly sort his irish citizenship costing time and money
- secondly make the effort to Register for a vote
- thirdly, actually vote.

If someone on the register in Ireland can't make it to a polling booth, don't presume that someone with a faint interest in ireland would do tripple the work to vote abroad.

Which again is a hypothetical thing anyhow seeing as theres no hope of a general irish Diaspora vote ever getting voted in, and at best a northern ireland + emmigrants could get the nod at a referendum.

Spook_ie

munchkin_utd wrote: »

actually,
suppose a whole load from northern ireland were registered incorrectly.

And whether catholic or Protestant, they have a view that is more influenced by their faith than the population in the 26 counties, and suppose they made the effort and came down to vote in person (illegally), quite possibly with a NO ?

Would you applaud that too ?

Suppose a whole load from NI had Irish Passports and are designated as Citizens of Ireland, should they not have a say in how their country is run?

Irish nationality law is contained in the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts 1956 to 2004 and in the relevant provisions of the Irish Constitution. A person may be an Irish citizen[1] through birth, descent, marriage to an Irish citizen or through naturalisation. The law grants citizenship to individuals born in Northern Ireland under the same conditions as those born in the Republic of Ireland.

expectationlost

With the news that 48,000 #HomeToVote were sent in the past 24 hours. our Legal Affairs Correspondent, Ruadhán Mac Cormaic explains how Irish citizens living abroad retain their right to vote in elections and referenda for 18 months after leaving Ireland.

"Social media has been ablaze today with stories of Irish emigrants returning home to vote in the marriage referendum. But Ireland doesn’t allow emigrants to vote. So are they all breaking the law?

Not necessarily. Under the Electoral Act 1992, an Irish citizen can vote if he/she has been living outside the State for less than 18 months and intends to “resume residence” in Ireland within that timeframe. On this, the State relies on people’s good faith. The law states that, unless there is evidence to the contrary, the authorities will accept a statement to the effect that the voter intends to return to live in the State within 18 months of leaving.

We asked the Department of the Environment whether the onus was on the individual or the State to remove an emigrant’s name from the register. In response, we were told that the preparation of the Register of Electors is a matter for each local authority. “It is their duty to ensure, as far as possible and with the cooperation of the public, the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the Register,” a spokesman said. “This involves the carrying out of house-to-house or other local enquiries, including in many cases delivering registration forms to households for completion.
But the individual isn’t off the hook, and breaking these rules is an offence. The Act provides that anyone who fails or refuses to give information that may be required by a county registrar, or gives false information, is liable on summary conviction to a fine of up to €634.87 and/or imprisonment for up to three months."

copy and paste cos I can't link to it directly http://liveblog.irishtimes.com/ebbbecc654/LIVE-Marriage-Referendum-/

so you don't have to be living here when the council come round checking?

NSAman

Amazing ... We don't cater for them at home, they have to go abroad. They save and work hard all the time thinking of coming home in many cases. When the government want something they are the first "go to" people to be asked for business or to spend time at home.... they spend their own money to fly home and vote to make an impact on this country... and people are asking to deny them their birthright?

If you ask me, these people deserve praise, thanks and are an inspiration. They should be welcomed home for taking such a journey to take part in a process that they feel needs to be taken part in.

Why they HAVE to do this instead of having a postal vote I have no idea.

Welcome home one and all.

Hotblack Desiato

Spook_ie wrote: »

Suppose a whole load from NI had Irish Passports and are designated as Citizens of Ireland, should they not have a say in how their country is run?

Ah, you're hoping for a bunch of religious conservatives who will vote the way their church man tells them to :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Hudson Shallow Washbasin wrote: »

If you are on the register to vote you are entitled to vote were you are registered.

Being on the register does not entitle one to vote.
You seem to claim to be or have been an election worker, so you really should know this.
If one registers under false pretences, for instance, any attempt to vote would be a criminal offence despite being on the register.

Sheldons Brain

The Revenue should send all these guys a tax return. If they then claim to be living abroad then throw them off the Electoral Register and fine them for fraud.

Ludo

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

The Revenue should send all these guys a tax return. If they then claim to be living abroad then throw them off the Electoral Register and fine them for fraud.

Ya know... I gotta agree. I voted yes and want the referendum to pass but this home to vote crap seems just wrong to me. If you don't live here then in my eyes you don't get a say in how things are run here.

Bob24

Ludo wrote: »

Ya know... I gotta agree. I voted yes and want the referendum to pass but this home to vote crap seems just wrong to me. If you don't live here then in my eyes you don't get a say in how things are run here.

And more than what you, me or anyone else thinks, it simply is the law. That some media and politicians could cheers about citizens breaking it is a serious lack of judgement on their side and is sending a wrong message I think.

Hotblack Desiato

Can you prove these voters were not resident in the state within the last 18 months?

Bob24

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you prove these voters were not resident in the state within the last 18 months?

The exact condition is that you also need to intend to resume residence in the State within 18 months of your departure.

Of course no one here can prove anything, but I would feel pretty safe in assuming that many of the people who returned to vote do not match that condition.

Hotblack Desiato

We are at DeValera levels of 'looking into my heart to know the intentions of the Irish people' here.

It is comic

Wanderer78

was great to see people coming home to vote on this. jasus ive a bit of hope people really do wanna change things in this country

stefanovich

It'll be interesting to see the difference between the yes and no count. We have 66,000 yes votes which are from non-resident Irish returning to vote. Enda was touched by their determination to break the law.

Add on all the non-citizens voting... How broken is the electoral system?

Wanderer78

stefanovich wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see the difference between the yes and no count. We have 66,000 yes votes which are from non-resident Irish returning to vote. Enda was touched by their determination to break the law.

Add on all the non-citizens voting... How broken is the electoral system?

im still impressed by the amount of people returning home to vote. people are very passionate about this subject matter and rightfully so. i just hope they show the same enthusiasm next general election.

MathDebater

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you prove these voters were not resident in the state within the last 18 months?

Eight lads were interviewed by RTE and they said that they had been over in London for the last ten years but came home to vote! You could check their passports for visa stamps for those living outside of the EU. Very difficult to prove for those living within the EU(unless they stupidly admit it on air).