New rules on CIDs?

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2015 11:57am #1

So I'm just curious how this is playing out for everyone? We've got a situation where three positions are being almagamated into one larger post this summer in the readvertisement so two will be out of a job. And does anyone know if the old rules apply, that if one of those three gets it then they would be CIDable at the end of next year or would it be the end of the following year since it's essentially a brand new full time position being advertised?

sitstill · 17-05-2015 1:17pm

My understanding is that if one of those 3 people gets the job, they would be due a CID at the end of the year, assuming they then were offered hours for a third year in the school and their CID would be based on the hours of their second year.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-05-2015 1:30pm

Tough in the short term but the move towards one proper decent job in place of three bitty contracts would seem a good thing overall.

In my school the changes mean two people covering career breaks will be given full CID next year, which is great news. They are so lucky to have the career break hours this year as these are shifted around amongst part-timers every year and do not relate to subject qualifications or anything.

The knock-on effect has been that all but one job share, and career breaks, have been refused for next year stating new circular as reason. Causing warfare at the moment!

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2015 2:03pm

Definitely a good thing in terms of splitting contracts but we do still have some short hour contracts being advertised and an odd one in that career break/maternity/job share hours are all short of the totals they should be. Eg the job share is two job shares making a 22hr position that's being advertised as 18

sitstill · 17-05-2015 3:01pm

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

evolving_doors · 17-05-2015 3:48pm

sitstill wrote: »

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

Shhhhh, don't tell anyone. They're probably gone by now anyway...{ furiously typing the webpage address now...}

Frankly frank · 17-05-2015 3:52pm

If you have a cid, what happens if applying for position in another school and successful? Are you put back on a new contract ...does cid rollover??

Frankly frank · 17-05-2015 3:53pm

Micheal Scrawny Music wrote: »

Tough in the short term but the move towards one proper decent job in place of three bitty contracts would seem a good thing overall.

In my school the changes mean two people covering career breaks will be given full CID next year, which is great news. They are so lucky to have the career break hours this year as these are shifted around amongst part-timers every year and do not relate to subject qualifications or anything.

The knock-on effect has been that all but one job share, and career breaks, have been refused for next year stating new circular as reason. Causing warfare at the moment!

How do you mean hours are shifted around, what about contracts?

evolving_doors · 17-05-2015 3:59pm

sitstill wrote: »

Looking at jobs on education posts at the moment, the majority of them seem to be with decent hours and quite a few are 22 hours. It hasn't been like that in quite a while.

Ya there's a few there alright. I seem to remember a few of those same subjects offered in the same schools a while ago!

Would it be correct in assuming that the 2 year CID 'reinterview/readvertise' scenario is taking place now? So if a teacher is applying for a CID their 'job' has to be advertised (hence why there's a lot of fixed-terms!).

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-05-2015 4:07pm

Frankly frank wrote: »

How do you mean hours are shifted around, what about contracts?

All the "extra" hours (career break, job share, NBSS etc) are just divied up among part timers regardless of subjects. One could have job share for the Irish teacher one year and career break for the PE teacher the next - all the while teaching totally different (your own) subjects. It's a complete shambles but those whose contracts happened to say career break this year have lucked out! BOM determined not to be caught out again however - no career breaks allowed anymore (one exception for father of dying child). Job shares all cancelled/refused too citing Pat King's comments regarding implementation of new circular even though they are not mentioned in document.

joebloggs32 · 17-05-2015 4:18pm

Micheal Scrawny Music wrote: »

All the "extra" hours (career break, job share, NBSS etc) are just divied up among part timers regardless of subjects. One could have job share for the Irish teacher one year and career break for the PE teacher the next - all the while teaching totally different (your own) subjects. It's a complete shambles but those whose contracts happened to say career break this year have lucked out! BOM determined not to be caught out again however - no career breaks allowed anymore (one exception for father of dying child). Job shares all cancelled/refused too citing Pat King's comments regarding implementation of new circular even though they are not mentioned in document.

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Alqua · 17-05-2015 4:32pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Would it be correct in assuming that the 2 year CID 'reinterview/readvertise' scenario is taking place now? So if a teacher is applying for a CID their 'job' has to be advertised (hence why there's a lot of fixed-terms!).

Definitely lots of this - from speaking to people in different schools a lot of people have to be re-interviewed, includes anyone in the first year of an RPT. Our school has several jobs advertised at the minute and only one of them is 'real'.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-05-2015 4:36pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Yes, there is an almighty row afoot at the moment and DES and Union have confirmed that the circular should not affect applications for career break and has nothing whatsoever to do with job share. Don't know how it will all be resolved though.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2015 6:48pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Your BOM is acting the maggot. If someone is awarded a CID due to someone being on a career break they will only be employed in that school until the original teacher returns. Then they will be subject to redeployment

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

sitstill · 17-05-2015 6:49pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

Any idea on when the 'medium term' will be and they will redeploy those returning from career break?

Moody_mona · 17-05-2015 6:51pm

Frankly frank wrote: »

If you have a cid, what happens if applying for position in another school and successful? Are you put back on a new contract ...does cid rollover??

No, you forfeit your CID and have to work it up again.

joebloggs32 · 17-05-2015 6:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not necessarily. If there is nowhere to redeploy the newer teacher, they'll have to keep them. It could result in another teacher that is not CID being let go to accommodate the new CID teacher and the teacher returning from career break. The report that came out last year that said the two year CID would be implemented immediately and that in the medium term (and hasn't been done yet) that the teacher returning from career break would be the one to be redeployed and the newer teacher kept on.

I welcome shorter CIDs but I'm skeptical on how they will pan out when they are awarded to a teacher who is covering another teacher's job, so essentially the job is not newly created.

It is not the returning one who will be redeployed by my reading of the circular.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2015 8:14pm

sitstill wrote: »

Any idea on when the 'medium term' will be and they will redeploy those returning from career break?

No, there has been no circular about that aspect yet. My own opinion is that if the teacher covering career break is covering the break long enough to get a CID then they will retain the position. That's how I'd imagine it will pan out.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2015 8:27pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is not the returning one who will be redeployed by my reading of the circular.

I know that, but the recommendation in the Ward Report is in the long term. The immediate term is for the new teacher to be put on the redeployment panel if necessary. So it might happen a year or two down the road.

I recommend that consideration be given to changing the terms and conditions of career
breaks in future in order to provide that it is the teacher on career break who is placed on the
Redeployment Panel upon resumption of employmentafter a designated number of years on
career break. I recommend that a similar provision be incorporated into the terms and
conditions of secondment.

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Report-to-the-Minister-for-Education-and-Skills-of-the-Chairperson-of-the-Expert-Group-on-Fixed-Term-and-Part-Time-Employment-in-Primary-and-Second-Level-Education-in-Ireland.pdf

man_no_plan · 17-05-2015 9:48pm

Alqua wrote: »

Definitely lots of this - from speaking to people in different schools a lot of people have to be re-interviewed, includes anyone in the first year of an RPT. Our school has several jobs advertised at the minute and only one of them is 'real'.

They're all real jobs. As in there will be a job there for somebody. It doesn't mean that the person in the job at the minute will get it. Its like a ruthless form of 'performance management'.

If you ask me this circular is bad news in the long run. Tightening up on the short contracts with the three year cid would have been better. Far too easy to shaft people now.

If the provision for giving hours to those in the school rather than to a new person first had been added to the three year CID I think it would have been fairer all round.

Don't forget that an awful lot of now permanent teachers starts off as TWT and were interviewed for their permanent positions after a few years. It worked well before the CID legislation was brought in, that actually had the opposite effect to what was intended and disimproved job security.

Its at least ten years since someone in my school was made permanent. Everyone else is CID after waiting the 4 years, then three now it'll be two!!

A teacher in my school was offered a cid fir full hours from Sept even though she wouldn't be 'entitled' to it for another year. Bottom line is that she's needed next year and would qualify then so why waste time? Its a pity this doesn't happen more often.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2015 9:58pm

It's great to hear that there are schools out there that are awarding contracts based on common sense.

I'd be worried that some unscrupulous principals/BOMs/ETBs will just use this reinterview after 1 year thing as a way of getting rid of people for no reason and have a constant conveyor belt of teachers working on 1 year contracts.

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2015 10:00pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's great to hear that there are schools out there that are awarding contracts based on common sense.

I'd be worried that some unscrupulous principals/BOMs/ETBs will just use this reinterview after 1 year thing as a way of getting rid of people for no reason and have a constant conveyor belt of teachers working on 1 year contracts.

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

man_no_plan · 17-05-2015 10:25pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

Maybe they're just being sensible. No point having a load of part time people on cid long term when one person is needed

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2015 10:27pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Maybe they're just being sensible. No point having a load of part time people on cid long term when one person is needed

True. Having said that ETBs aren't exactly known for the sense of that idea!

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2015 10:47pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ya I'm kinda wondering if that why the job in ours was repackaged

To be honest I'd prefer to see 1 person on 18 hours than 3 people on 6 hours and constantly broke. It also gives a realistic expectation of how many jobs are out there rather than a school having a 'staff of 40' but a teacher allocation of 20.

mirrorwall14 · 17-05-2015 10:52pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest I'd prefer to see 1 person on 18 hours than 3 people on 6 hours and constantly broke. It also gives a realistic expectation of how many jobs are out there rather than a school having a 'staff of 40' but a teacher allocation of 20.

Oh trust me I would too but given the history of ETBs with contracts it wouldn't actually surprise me to see this job given to someone new and 'more suitable' under the guise of new rules as opposed to any of the current staff in order to avoid CIDs. Rinse and repeat next year.

Then again maybe I'm cynical

Alqua · 18-05-2015 11:51am

man_no_plan wrote: »

They're all real jobs. As in there will be a job there for somebody. It doesn't mean that the person in the job at the minute will get it. Its like a ruthless form of 'performance management'

Absolutely - and that is the cruel aspect of the circular. Just in this case, I am pretty sure that the teachers in question are being kept on.

Frankly frank · 18-05-2015 5:02pm

Moody_mona wrote: »

No, you forfeit your CID and have to work it up again.

So you can't ever move without a swap? Can you be offered permanent any more?

rainbowtrout · 18-05-2015 5:26pm

Frankly frank wrote: »

So you can't ever move without a swap? Can you be offered permanent any more?

You can move within your ETB and you retain your cid. If you are redeployed you can retain your cid. If you lose your job and apply for a new job you are back to zero

Frankly frank · 18-05-2015 7:02pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can move within your ETB and you retain your cid. If you are redeployed you can retain your cid. If you lose your job and apply for a new job you are back to zero

Non ETB?

r93kaey5p2izun · 18-05-2015 7:20pm

Frankly frank wrote: »

Non ETB?

You can't bring your CID with you if you move through your own choice - unless it is within an ETB and with the agreement of head office. Being redeployed you would keep it whether employed by ETB or DES. It's the same as for permanency.

New rules on CIDs?

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