safety order bull****e

Joshua5

Can an ex get a safety order because of an argument with raised voices on both sides?

She called the Gardaí on me to ask me to leave the house which I obliged. Next day I received a safety order summons. I'm in court tomorrow.

She got a interim protection order claiming I was abusive to her which is utter bull****. Is the onus on her to prove it or on me to defend it?

I've never been abusive to her, we argued simply because of mediation over divorce. She changed her mind on what she wants I wanted to discuss it further and she said no so we argued. Simple as that.

Can someone give me an idea of what happens in the court? I'm nervous about it, never been there before.

Zambia

You need a lawyer , from your post you are way to close to this to succeed in getting the result you want. It's an interim order not the end of the world.

Free legal advice - don't breach the order.

I'm sure that advice is not against charter

Joshua5

Zambia wrote: »

You need a lawyer , from your post you are way to close to this to succeed in getting the result you want. It's an interim order not the end of the world.

Free legal advice - don't breach the order.

I'm sure that advice is not against charter

I can't afford a lawyer, I've actually done nothing wrong. Will the judge seek evidence of her lies? Or is this just a case of my word against hers.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Joshua5

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well it is bull, I've to take a day of work to go to court to defend something that never happened. Good job you're not the judge.

the_syco

Joshua5 wrote: »

I can't afford a lawyer, I've actually done nothing wrong. Will the judge seek evidence of her lies? Or is this just a case of my word against hers.

As the saying goes, "it doesn't matter what you know, only what you can prove".

Joshua5 wrote: »

Well it is bull

So? Your language is aggressive, and if she pushes the right buttons in court, she can use your response against you.

If you can't afford a lawyer, either get free legal aid, or lose everything.

Miaireland

As the above poster suggests you need to get a lawyer or free legal aid. You are angry and are coming across as very aggressive whether you mean to or not.

You need to calm down big time before you appear in court.

Joshua5

Miaireland wrote: »

As the above poster suggests you need to get a lawyer or free legal aid. You are angry and are coming across as very aggressive whether you mean to or not.

You need to calm down big time before you appear in court.

I'm just saying its bull because I actually can't believe a man can be brought to court for having an argument with a woman. A verbal disagreement....

It's an abuse of court time surely! I'm not ranting or raving, I'm not even angry. I just find it is a complete joke that wastes everyone's time on the basis of a statement she made for nothing more than a chess board move for our divorce hearing.

She claimed in her interim protection order I was abusive which is a complete fabrication. I never ever ever had been abusive. This is all of a result of one simple fact. My current partner is now pregnant, my ex is scorned in someway. She can't move on.

Chloris

draiochtanois wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Don't mind this guy, there's always someone on boards.ie who just wants to criticise everyone, possibly because of their own shortcomings.

Do you know anyone who would provide you with legal representation for a discount, or for free? Even just somebody who knows a bit about family law, for moral support...

If not, you'll just have to keep completely calm and concentrate hard on what is being said at the hearing. Speak slowly and clearly. Covey you were speaking civily without badmouthing her, don't even make reference to her if possible! Show them that you're surprised by the seriousness of the response because it will be clear from that that you don't deserve anything to happen.

That's what I would do in that situation anyway.

Joshua5

Chloris wrote: »

Don't mind this guy, there's always someone on boards.ie who just wants to criticise everyone, possibly because of their own shortcomings.

Do you know anyone who would provide you with legal representation for a discount, or for free? Even just somebody who knows a bit about family law, for moral support...

If not, you'll just have to keep completely calm and concentrate hard on what is being said at the hearing. Speak slowly and clearly. Covey you were speaking civily without badmouthing her, don't even make reference to her if possible! Show them that you're surprised by the seriousness of the response because it will be clear from that that you don't deserve anything to happen.

That's what I would do in that situation anyway.

I am very calm, I will be very calm. I am shocked at it, surprised is an understatement. Even when we parted ways I supported her in many many ways. I never have badmouthed her, I think shes a great mother and the fact this has happened knocked me for six because we had a great relationship even after we split.

Pat Mustard

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Mod:

No more posts like this, please. Discussion of the topic at hand only.

acuriouscat

I'm in the same boat except I got one against my ex after he assaulted me,twice!!
He retaliated and applied for one against me,which I find seriously unfair. Apparently me calling him names after he punched me is reason to apply for one, im court soon and I'm dying over it,you really need a solicitor my friend

Chloris

Joshua5 wrote:

I am very calm, I will be very calm. I am shocked at it, surprised is an understatement. Even when we parted ways I supported her in many many ways. I never have badmouthed her, I think shes a great mother and the fact this has happened knocked me for six because we had a great relationship even after we split.

So without coming across as indignant, you should convey your surprise. Write out a summary of the conversation you had with her the time she felt that it escalated. Don't bring any emotion into it but make sure you are emphatic that you didn't become angry or frustrated, if this was the case.

Another important thing is to steer clear of is pointing the finger at her. Just plead your innocence in the calmest, most reasonable way possible. I'm sure anyone would dismiss those claims if presented with a rational, unemotional account of the facts as you're presenting them here.

Joshua5

Chloris wrote: »

So without coming across as indignant, you should convey your surprise. Write out a summary of the conversation you had with her the time she felt that it escalated. Don't bring any emotion into it but make sure you are emphatic that you didn't become angry or frustrated, if this was the case.

Another important thing is to steer clear of is pointing the finger at her. Just plead your innocence in the calmest, most reasonable way possible. I'm sure anyone would dismiss those claims if presented with a rational, unemotional account of the facts as you're presenting them here.

Good advice, but asides from the argument we had. Which was raised voices she now claims I was abusive. I'm wondering will she be asked to explain when I was abusive? I'd like to hear what she has to say, I've never been abusive to her. We've had some arguments, who hasn't. None would be classed as abusive. She had an opinion, I had one. We disagreed and left it there.

Joshua5

acuriouscat wrote: »

I'm in the same boat except I got one against my ex after he assaulted me,twice!!
He retaliated and applied for one against me,which I find seriously unfair. Apparently me calling him names after he punched me is reason to apply for one, im court soon and I'm dying over it,you really need a solicitor my friend

If he hit you he hasn't got a leg to stand on really. I actually did nothing but disagree with her on something we previously agreed on for divorce mediation and she decided to change her mind.

I can't believe I'm in court to be frank. I can't believe this even got the air time, it's unreal.

the_syco

Joshua5 wrote: »

Good advice, but asides from the argument we had. Which was raised voices she now claims I was abusive.

If you think it's because of current gf is preggers, it could show her state of mind, so she could say that your tone, your body language, your language, etc, was abusive.

Get a solicitor to advise, as although you may not be able to afford it, do you stand to lose more than you lose with a solicitors fees? Check if you are entitled to free legal aid.

If nothing else, the solicitor may help show the judge that you take the accusations seriously.

Joshua5

the_syco wrote: »

If you think it's because of current gf is preggers, it could show her state of mind, so she could say that your tone, your body language, your language, etc, was abusive.

Get a solicitor to advise, as although you may not be able to afford it, do you stand to lose more than you lose with a solicitors fees? Check if you are entitled to free legal aid.

If nothing else, the solicitor may help show the judge that you take the accusations seriously.

I'm pretty sure it is because I'm happy in life now and she is begrudging it. For example we are apart 5 years now. I'm with my current GF 4 years now. My ex wife claimed to my GF that we only split two years ago. My current GF brushed it off, she knows better.

sbsquarepants

Joshua5 wrote: »

I can't believe I'm in court to be frank. I can't believe this even got the air time, it's unreal.

I'm not as sure as some others that you "need" a solicitor. But what you certainly do need is to be well turned out, polite and above all calm. There's no complicated point of law to be argued or anything like that - the judge will listen to her, listen to you and decide who he believes - if you're foaming at the mouth you've as good as made the decision for him.

If you want some advice (non legal) it's leave your past in the past, split your assets as best you can and forget all about your ex - don't call over, don't ring, don't text don't reply if she does. It doesn't matter who done what or who said what, draw a line and move on from it.
She's your ex for a reason!

Joshua5

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm not as sure as some others that you "need" a solicitor. But what you certainly do need is to be well turned out, polite and above all calm. There's no complicated point of law to be argued or anything like that - the judge will listen to her, listen to you and decide who he believes - if you're foaming at the mouth you've as good as made the decision for him.

If you want some advice (non legal) it's leave your past in the past, split your assets as best you can and forget all about your ex - don't call over, don't ring, don't text don't reply if she does. It doesn't matter who done what or who said what, draw a line and move on from it.
She's your ex for a reason!

I don't disagree with anything you say. We have children so it adds to the complication. To be transparent we had been working mediation. We have a house, mortgage together. I pay it... Anyhow the day of this argument she said she wanted to talk. She 'changed' her mind (since the news of the new arrival) to say she actually wanted me to sign over the house to her. I previously suggested my share in a trust fund for my kids so they would have a start in life that I never did. Anyway I disagreed and she said no mediation then, we had an argument and here I am not facing court tomorrow. That's what this was all about.

barman linen

This is not what you want to hear but my experience of District Court Judges is to get any family matters out of their court as quickly as possible and if she turns on the tears you are on a hiding to nothing.

My experience is not in safety orders but in maintenance hearings and all facts go out the window when the tears are flowing.

All of the above advice is correct in you staying calm. Even if she embellishes the truth don't talk across the table to her...don't react and when it comes to your turn plead your case.

Watch out for the tears.

Joshua5

barman linen wrote: »

This is not what you want to hear but my experience of District Court Judges is to get any family matters out of their court as quickly as possible and if she turns on the tears you are on a hiding to nothing.

My experience is not in safety orders but in maintenance hearings and all facts go out the window when the tears are flowing.

All of the above advice is correct in you staying calm. Even if she embellishes the truth don't talk across the table to her...don't react and when it comes to your turn plead your case.

Watch out for the tears.

I might try the tears myself LOL...

the_syco

Joshua5 wrote: »

She 'changed' her mind (since the news of the new arrival) to say she actually wanted me to sign over the house to her.

Best get to know a family lawyer to avoid losing your share of the house, and to avoid the judge handing the family home to the mother and children.

barman linen wrote: »

This is not what you want to hear but my experience of District Court Judges is to get any family matters out of their court as quickly as possible and if she turns on the tears you are on a hiding to nothing.

I'd say the tears are the only thing guaranteed, tbh.

Joshua5

the_syco wrote: »

Best get to know a family lawyer to avoid losing your share of the house, and to avoid the judge handing the family home to the mother and children.


I'd say the tears are the only thing guaranteed, tbh.

Is it based on evidence or not? If it's not then I have no chance, if it is then she has no chance. It's all lies, she's bitter and a fraud.

acuriouscat

It all depends on who the better liar is unfortunately .. The judge is only human so it's up to him if he falls for her lies. But I was also under the impression that a protection order is only given when there's acts or threats of violence?
If it was given for arguments everyone in the country would have one,more than one

Joshua5

acuriouscat wrote: »

It all depends on who the better liar is unfortunately .. The judge is only human so it's up to him if he falls for her lies. But I was also under the impression that a protection order is only given when there's acts or threats of violence?
If it was given for arguments everyone in the country would have one,more than one

We had an argument, raised voices. I went outside to my children, they didn't hear or see us arguing. I was helping them put together a trampoline. Next thing the Gardaí arrived, children went in and they asked me to leave because she 'was in fear'. I asked what was she in fear of, they had no answer but advised me to leave which I did. Next day I got the protection order, followed by the safety order.

The statement on the order from her said I struck her, I pushed her, I threatened her. None of which happened and if it did surely the Gardaí would have arrested me. They said on the day I didn't need to make a statement and just advised me to leave so she could 'cool off'.

acuriouscat

she would have told the Guards there was violence on the day so?? If she didn't that will stand to you in court.
And no the guards don't always arrest people on the day especially if it's seen as domestic. My ex wasn't arrested. Even though the guards were called when he struck me. I found this extremely unfair,violence is violence domestic or not. He was however arrears red when I made the statement(or will be). I really think u need a solicitor

Joshua5

acuriouscat wrote: »

she would have told the Guards there was violence on the day so?? If she didn't that will stand to you in court.
And no the guards don't always arrest people on the day especially if it's seen as domestic. My ex wasn't arrested. Even though the guards were called when he struck me. I found this extremely unfair,violence is violence domestic or not. He was however arrears red when I made the statement(or will be). I really think u need a solicitor

After I got the summons with the statement she made I went to the Gardaí that attended on the day. They said nothing like that was said to them nor was a statement made and they wished me good luck.

I might add to this and say I was abroad for the last 4 years, I've only returned to Ireland. In the four years I was away I supported her and my children financially, I had regular visits home to my children and they came to visit me. Other than me giving her money and arranging time with my children I don't recall talking to her about sweet F'all. So how am I suppose to have been abusive?

Little CuChulainn

acuriouscat wrote: »

she would have told the Guards there was violence on the day so?? If she didn't that will stand to you in court.
And no the guards don't always arrest people on the day especially if it's seen as domestic. My ex wasn't arrested. Even though the guards were called when he struck me. I found this extremely unfair,violence is violence domestic or not. He was however arrears red when I made the statement(or will be). I really think u need a solicitor

There is no power of arrest for an assault unless there is an injury.

Joshua5

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

There is no power of arrest for an assault unless there is an injury.

Either way, I didn't touch her. I never did and never would. But if she claims I did and it's lies then it's my word against hers?

Little CuChulainn

Joshua5 wrote: »

Either way, I didn't touch her. I never did and never would. But if she claims I did and it's lies then it's my word against hers?

Yes. The judge will issue the order if he has "reasonable grounds for believing that the safety or welfare of the applicant or any dependent person" requires it. this does not require physical violence to be a factor.

Joshua5

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes. The judge will issue the order if he has "reasonable grounds for believing that the safety or welfare of the applicant or any dependent person". this does not require physical violence to be a factor.

Sure how is that fair on an innocent party. This is a move to prevent me from coming to my house to see my children and gain an upper hand in a divorce. I'm dreading this, I can nearly see the outcome judging on the messages here. I've no hope in proving my innocence.

acuriouscat

When u got the summons did it say what she wrote down on the application?

Little CuChulainn

Joshua5 wrote: »

Sure how is that fair on an innocent party. This is a move to prevent me from coming to my house to see my children and gain an upper hand in a divorce. I'm dreading this, I can nearly see the outcome judging on the messages here. I've no hope in proving my innocence.

It doesn't prevent you coming to the house. It's not about proving your innocence. A Safety order isn't a criminal record. The only time it will affect you is if you break it by engaging in abusive behaviour.

Joshua5

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It doesn't prevent you coming to the house. It's not about proving your innocence. A Safety order isn't a criminal record. The only time it will affect you is if you break it by engaging in abusive behaviour.

But if she lies saying I was abusive in the first place, when I wasn't and gets this order then she can do it again when she has it.

Joshua5

acuriouscat wrote: »

When u got the summons did it say what she wrote down on the application?

it says I blocked her leaving the kitchen, threatened to take the children where she would never see them again. I struck her in the arm and called her abusive names. I threatened to move back into the house and I threatened to take my children from school. She states I was abusive verbally and psychologically since we got married but my behaviour has become more extreme.

Muff Richardson

OP, you sound genuine. One thing springs to mind for me, doesn't abuse or being abusive encompass using colourful language and or any kind of name calling during an argument? I know it seems ridiculous and throwing the f bombs about are common practice in everyday life for most of us but this could be what she's using against you so if this is the case be prepared for that.

Apply for legal aid asap, you'll need to be assessed for suitability and that can take time.

As someone mentioned for your own protection don't have any informal contact with her ever again and keep a record of any contact she tries to make with you.

Sorry for your troubles and good luck

Little CuChulainn

Joshua5 wrote: »

But if she lies saying I was abusive in the first place, when I wasn't and gets this order then she can do it again when she has it.

The awarding of a safety order is a civil matter, a judge decides on the balance of probability. The prosecution of a breach of an order is a criminal matter and must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. It's a lot easier to get one than it is to use one.

Joshua5

Muff Richardson wrote: »

OP, you sound genuine. One thing springs to mind for me, doesn't abuse or being abusive encompass using colourful language and or any kind of name calling during an argument? I know it seems ridiculous and throwing the f bombs about are common practice in everyday life for most of us but this could be what she's using against you so if this is the case be prepared for that.

Apply for legal aid asap, you'll need to be assessed for suitability and that can take time.

As someone mentioned for your own protection don't have any informal contact with her ever again and keep a record of any contact she tries to make with you.

Sorry for your troubles and good luck

I can say with my hand on my heart I never ever called her a name, never an abusive name. She is the mother of my children and she was my wife.

We had argued before as couples do. Her family for instance had some inappropriate behaviour around my children which we argued about. I doubt she'll bring that up in court because the court would be more concerned about her mothering skills then.

Joshua5

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The awarding of a safety order is a civil matter, a judge decides on the balance of probability. The prosecution of a breach of an order is a criminal matter and must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. It's a lot easier to get one than it is to use one.

It still doesn't make me feel better. If my ex can be awarded a safety order for a pack of lies against me then how can I even speak up for my children or be a father when she can pull the 'fear' card. It's unreal, sickening and an abuse of the system.

the_syco

Joshua5 wrote: »

It's unreal, sickening and an abuse of the system.

Yup. Thus get a family lawyer on how to proceed. They may even know some of the tricks she could be liable to pull.

Joshua5

Hi guys,

My ex wife had an interim protective order against me, I was in court yesterday for a hearing on a safety order. It was her word against mine, which I might add she was lying. In my stupidity I thought there was a chance when the judge hears both sides of the story he would know it was fabricated.

Unfortunately for me he asked her for the account of the day, which she gave along with many other lies. He was shaking his head in disgust.

I then was asked to take the stand, which I did and when I tried to explain my side of the story he cut me off and asked me you do deny the allegations which I did.

He said that is all, and gave me a safety barring order for two years. For those of you who will say a safety order is no big deal I feel like it is blacking my name for something I didn't do.

She lives in the house I pay a mortgage on with her partner and my children, I'm now afraid I can't even see my children or more false allegations will come my way.

I need to know that based on the face this was a district court case, is it full and final or can I appeal in a court near me. This was in county Louth and I live in Dublin. Thanks

MarkAnthony

You can appeal, I believe, to the Circuit Court where the case will be heard De novo (from scratch). As you have already seen though it would be advisable to have a solicitor.

Joshua5

MarkAnthony wrote: »

You can appeal, I believe, to the Circuit Court where the case will be heard De novo (from scratch). As you have already seen though it would be advisable to have a solicitor.

I will get a solicitor this time even if it costs me the shirt of my back. Does it need to be in the Louth Circuit court or can I move it to Dublin? Just so I know which solicitor area I can look for in the expertise. Thank you

MarkAnthony

Joshua5 wrote: »

I will get a solicitor this time even if it costs me the shirt of my back. Does it need to be in the Louth Circuit court or can I move it to Dublin? Just so I know which solicitor area I can look for in the expertise. Thank you

Pass, speak to the solicitor. I'm not in practice so I've no idea of the practical side of things I'm afraid. I'd assume this is an area covered by general practice. I'd start off in FLAC (www.flac.ie) they will be able to recommend someone and give you a steer on legal aid. However I'm not sure what the time limit is for an appeal so act quickly.

As for picking a solicitor, go with you gut. It's no different from picking an electrician or a plumber. Shop around.

Ken.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/barring_safety_and_protection_orders.html

Safety order
A safety order is an order of the court which prohibits the violent person from further violence or threats of violence. It does not oblige the person to leave the family home. If the person is not living with you it prohibits them from watching or being near your home. A safety order can last up to 5 years.


It won't stop you seeing your kids but if I was in your position I'd have a witness by my side every time I had to interact with (in your case) my ex wife.

Joshua5

ken wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/barring_safety_and_protection_orders.html

Safety order
A safety order is an order of the court which prohibits the violent person from further violence or threats of violence. It does not oblige the person to leave the family home. If the person is not living with you it prohibits them from watching or being near your home. A safety order can last up to 5 years.


It won't stop you seeing your kids but if I was in your position I'd have a witness by my side every time I had to interact with (in your case) my ex wife.

The judge granted two years safety order against me. I didn't do anything, this is all because she had found out my current partner is pregnant and out of spite. The judge didn't want to hear anything from me.

Polo_Mint

Joshua5 wrote: »

She lives in the house I pay a mortgage on with her partner and my children, I'm now afraid I can't even see my children or more false allegations will come my way.

Are you doing this for your Kids?

Can you not sell your ex and her partner the house?

Joshua5

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Are you doing this for your Kids?

Can you not sell your ex and her partner the house?

Yes I'm doing it for the kids, it's their family home. She doesn't want to buy the house, she wants it signed over to her. We had a verbal argument about it. The short story is we had agreed on mediation and the division of assets. The house I agreed to put my half into trust for my children, it was all ok. She found out my current partner is pregnant and then the next day said no mediation unless I sign over the house I've paid the mortgage on the last 12 years. I said no, we argued but then she called the police. I waited for them and they asked me to leave so she could calm down which I did.

She then when to the court to apply for this order claiming I struck her, pushed her and had been abusive to her. All lies but the judge didn't want to hear it.

Pat Mustard

Threads merged.

Pat Mustard

Mod:

Please try to stay on topic.

Musical interlude deleted.

hierro

Almost a side question But it seems to apply here.

Do the legal profession contest domestic orders based on the non-fulfilment of the shared living arrangements where the other half is not a "spouse"?