Crashed this morning on the N11 at Donnybrook

manwithaplan

@07Lapierre I was only making the important point that I am a badass. Surely that's something we can all agree on

07Lapierre

manwithaplan wrote: »

@07Lapierre I was only making the important point that I am a badass. Surely that's something we can all agree on

No your a big softie under that tough exterior!

tomasrojo

Diana Dry Realtor wrote: »

Is it, to deny that is pure silly and if you don't take that into account when you're riding your bike you're a silly person.. Its why we have to make the effort to make ourselves more visible to the motorist, and ride defensively.

If you really think we're easily seen you're deluding yourself, we're not easily seen at all.

If you're behaving predictably, it's more down to driver inattention or distraction than your conspicuity though (barring darkness or fog).

You'll find you're much more easily seen on a road where drivers aren't constantly looking for gaps in traffic and mentally willing such gaps into existence.

ozzy jr

Diana Dry Realtor wrote: »

Is it, to deny that is pure silly and if you don't take that into account when you're riding your bike you're a silly person.. Its why we have to make the effort to make ourselves more visible to the motorist, and ride defensively.

If you really think we're easily seen you're deluding yourself, we're not easily seen at all.

No matter how bright you make yourself, a bad driver still won't see you. This happened to me last week. Luckily I managed to stop in time, but if you look at my right hand brake you can see the reflection of my luminous jacket in his car.

cython

ozzy jr wrote: »

No matter how bright you make yourself, a bad driver still won't see you. This happened to me last week. Luckily I managed to stop in time, but if you look at my right hand brake you can see the reflection of my luminous jacket in his car.

Well that would likely be a part of riding defensively as Makikomi mentioned, would it not? Trying to keep an eye out for unexpected/dangerous behaviour from other road users?

tomasrojo wrote: »

If you're behaving predictably, it's more down to driver inattention or distraction than your conspicuity though (barring darkness or fog).

You'll find you're much more easily seen on a road where drivers aren't constantly looking for gaps in traffic and mentally willing such gaps into existence.

You could equally say you are much more easily seen on a road with less visual clutter and distraction (other traffic's behaviour needing to be watched). One of these phrasing suggests the cyclist can do nothing to make themselves more visible, the other acknowledges they can, and while I'm not an advocate of high-vis in the dark over lights, or see it as the be all and end all for cyclists (frequently don't wear it myself, but that's my choice, and I tend to cycle as though nobody can see me anyway), I can certainly see how bright colours will make a cyclist stand out more from said visual clutter in a traffic-heavy urban environment, and that can only be a good thing for the cyclist.

ozzy jr

I was riding defensively believe it or not. The crazy thing about that incident was, we were sitting beside each other at a red light about 100m up the road. On green I moved away first. He came from behind me, passed me and then cut me off.

I tapped on his window and asked him what happened and he said he didn't see me! Crazy stuff. Rather then get into a row, I asked him for his email address and told him I'd send him the video.

He was all apologies at the time and when he looked at clip.

monument

Diana Dry Realtor wrote: »

Is it, to deny that is pure silly and if you don't take that into account when you're riding your bike you're a silly person.. Its why we have to make the effort to make ourselves more visible to the motorist, and ride defensively.

If you really think we're easily seen you're deluding yourself, we're not easily seen at all.

I've watched many YouTube videos of helmet cam footage on clear days where the cyclist was wearing high-vis and using at least one flashing front light and the well-used phrase "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You" (aka SMIDSY) is said or comes to mind.

Here's one of many examples:

"I approach this mini roundabout with caution, front light flashing, hi vis jacket on, and clearly indicated, but somehow this lady driver appears not to see me."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv4aQ8XEF54

A few other examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgV5MJL6ZRI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2izr8gSnYA

2 front lights and I wear a bright orange jacket:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqMXMFU3TFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZS9Id8EtNQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPCtFMFGLrY

Kaisr Sose

Diana Dry Realtor wrote: »

Is it, to deny that is pure silly and if you don't take that into account when you're riding your bike you're a silly person.. Its why we have to make the effort to make ourselves more visible to the motorist, and ride defensively.

If you really think we're easily seen you're deluding yourself, we're not easily seen at all.

Firstly, hope the OP is still feeling ok.

The above quoted text is only relevant between dusk and dawn when cyclists need to be ultra cautious. For day time, it's a sad day when a cyclist needs to cycle defensively at all times.

I drive, I cycle. As a cyclist, I know I should not do anything erratic, and must always signal my intent clearly and in advance. As a motorist, I must be aware of all road users at all times, and factor in some unpredictability. However, I have no problem seeing cyclists because I am looking for them.

Motorists that are not aware of, or are not looking for cyclists are the cause of the vast majority of incidents involving cyclists. If a car comes from behind, and pulls across (in front of) a cyclist, normally at speed, often without indicating, sometimes against a filter light, as a cyclist, what can you do to mitigate the potential incident bar getting off the bike and walking on the pavement? If that is the only course of action, does it not defeat the purpose of cycling and having rules of the road that apply to all users?

Motorists therefore need to make sure they are aware of, and are looking for cyclists at all times. This "I did not see you" is akin to the "the dog ate my homework" excuse. Or put simpler, an excuse for driving without due care and attention.

tomasrojo

cython wrote: »

One of these phrasing suggests the cyclist can do nothing to make themselves more visible, the other acknowledges they can

Getting into hi-viz megathread territory now, but I'm increasingly reluctant to cede the notion that cyclists are hard to see. They place different demands on car-users' attentiveness because they are slower and -- even for the most VC-compliant cyclist -- have different road-positioning, which can take a driver by surprise, if they are careless or distracted. They are not, however, actually, physically, hard to see, and hi-viz's effect on collisions, based on the studies I've seen, is very modest, possibly close to zero, probably because conspicuity is not the actual problem.

magicbastarder

monument wrote: »

the well-used phrase "Sorry Mate I Didn't See You" (aka SMIDSY) is said or comes to mind.

was it on this forum i read about a motorcyclist in the UK who borrowed a police jacket from a friend, and found the 'sorry mate i didn't see you' incidents simply stopped happening?

Kaisr Sose

ozzy jr wrote: »

No matter how bright you make yourself, a bad driver still won't see you. This happened to me last week. Luckily I managed to stop in time, but if you look at my right hand brake you can see the reflection of my luminous jacket in his car.

I had a similar incident at that very same spot last year. It was broad daylight, clear day, perfect visibility. I was visible, obeying all the rules, going straight, with the right of way in the cycle lane /bus lane. A motorist came from behind me in the bus lane ( traffic offence) and ;

1. Pulled across in front of me (offence)
2. Had no indicator or hazard light lit to signal their intention to other road users (offence)
3. Was on mobile phone (offence)

I slammed on brakes but had to go into the parking bay with the car as there was nowhere else to go. The motorist then abused me for touching their car....and drove off. So much for wanting to go to the shop! I got the reg and reported them. Motorist got a formal caution. More cyclists should report these incidents-it may save a life one day.

Red Belly

OP, I'm not a doctor, but I think you should get your hand looked at by one. There are a lot of small bones in your wrist. One of them, the scaphoid bone, is a common site of fractures for cyclists/motorcyclists who fall and extend their hands to break their fall, especially at lower speeds. Good quality motorcycle gloves have anti-friction pads to encourage the hand to slide along the road and reduce the likelihood of a fracture.

A scaphoid fracture is notoriously difficult to fully diagnose, it can be very hard to see in an x-Ray until it has started to heal, maybe 2/3 weeks after the fracture. The consequences of an undiagnosed scaphoid fracture can be very severe as the bone can die and seriously impede wrist and hand mobility. If things get that far there's no getting back. As a result suspected possible scaphoid fractures are treated very conservatively, basically assuming a fracture exists and casting the hand just in case. This happened to me and I am forever grateful to a diligent a and e doc who I tried to convince I was grand but who insisted I should be casted. Three weeks later the healing fracture was clearly visible on the x-Rays despite being impossible to see on the early ones.
Again, not a doctor, and probably seriously in breach of forum rules re medical advice, but in essence my advice is seek medical advice.

Rb

RainyDay

Diana Dry Realtor wrote: »

Is it, to deny that is pure silly and if you don't take that into account when you're riding your bike you're a silly person.. Its why we have to make the effort to make ourselves more visible to the motorist, and ride defensively.

If you really think we're easily seen you're deluding yourself, we're not easily seen at all.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Yes, it makes perfect sense to ride defensively, and I do. That doesn't change the fact that it's not hard to see bikes in traffic, provided that you look.

terrydel

Being a motorcyclist long before I took up cycling has been of huge benefit to me. You just get used to thinking for yourself and everyone else. Expect the worst at all times, so you are prepared. And that doesn't mean driving or cycling like Ms Daisy, it just means being highly alert and prepared.

Kaisr Sose

terrydel wrote: »

Being a motorcyclist long before I took up cycling has been of huge benefit to me. You just get used to thinking for yourself and everyone else. Expect the worst at all times, so you are prepared. And that doesn't mean driving or cycling like Ms Daisy, it just means being highly alert and prepared.

I drove a motor bike for Two years and would agree with most of that. Anticipation is key, and the day you go out thinking you have motorcycling or cycling cracked may be the day you do not see the end of.

That said, as a cyclist, nothing can or will prepare you for a car coming from behind, that suddenly decides to pull across you or just passes you and then stops without warning as if you were not there.

As a motorcyclist that is unlikely to happen because you are generally travelling faster and thus harder to overtake in the first place.

hardCopy

My thoughts on why people "don't see" cyclists.

• We're smaller than cars, although usually taller - We may not register when people throw a quick glance over one shoulder.
• Our movement patterns are different, we move slower some of the time but we keep moving when everything else stops - this can mean drivers expect a gap when they shouldn't
• We move off quicker than a car - again cyclists can close a gap quicker than they might expect
• A lot of drivers grossly underestimate how fast a bike moves - once they overtake a bike they think we'll never catch up to them so they go ahead and left-hook the bike
• They think we can stop on a dime - since we move so slow we will be able to stop for them and we won't mind either.

I think a lot of "I didn't see you" incidents should really be "I saw you but I thought I'd make it"

I spend far more time in my car than on my bike but I believe the few close shaves I've had on the bike have made me a better driver.

If cycling a few laps of a busy town was a prerequisite to getting a driving licence I think we would produce a far higher standard of driver.

cjt156

Agree with this completely. Years cycling and motorcycling before I got a car aged 26 taught me an appreciation for other road users.

SMIDSY = driving without due care and attention. It should be an admission of guilt, not an excuse.

Deedsie

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Firstly, hope the OP is still feeling ok.

The above quoted text is only relevant between dusk and dawn when cyclists need to be ultra cautious. For day time, it's a sad day when a cyclist needs to cycle defensively at all times.

I drive, I cycle. As a cyclist, I know I should not do anything erratic, and must always signal my intent clearly and in advance. As a motorist, I must be aware of all road users at all times, and factor in some unpredictability. However, I have no problem seeing cyclists because I am looking for them.

Motorists that are not aware of, or are not looking for cyclists are the cause of the vast majority of incidents involving cyclists. If a car comes from behind, and pulls across (in front of) a cyclist, normally at speed, often without indicating, sometimes against a filter light, as a cyclist, what can you do to mitigate the potential incident bar getting off the bike and walking on the pavement? If that is the only course of action, does it not defeat the purpose of cycling and having rules of the road that apply to all users?

Motorists therefore need to make sure they are aware of, and are looking for cyclists at all times. This "I did not see you" is akin to the "the dog ate my homework" excuse. Or put simpler, an excuse for driving without due care and attention.

Just a quick update, I am grand today but I was a bit winded last night. Chest felt a bit compressed and I had a general uneasy feeling. Much improved today though. Brought the bike to the bike shop last night and there was no structural damage thankfully. Cycled in this morning and was a bit more conservative going through Donnybrook. But felt grand throughout the cycle.

Red Belly wrote: »

OP, I'm not a doctor, but I think you should get your hand looked at by one. There are a lot of small bones in your wrist. One of them, the scaphoid bone, is a common site of fractures for cyclists/motorcyclists who fall and extend their hands to break their fall, especially at lower speeds. Good quality motorcycle gloves have anti-friction pads to encourage the hand to slide along the road and reduce the likelihood of a fracture.

A scaphoid fracture is notoriously difficult to fully diagnose, it can be very hard to see in an x-Ray until it has started to heal, maybe 2/3 weeks after the fracture. The consequences of an undiagnosed scaphoid fracture can be very severe as the bone can die and seriously impede wrist and hand mobility. If things get that far there's no getting back. As a result suspected possible scaphoid fractures are treated very conservatively, basically assuming a fracture exists and casting the hand just in case. This happened to me and I am forever grateful to a diligent a and e doc who I tried to convince I was grand but who insisted I should be casted. Three weeks later the healing fracture was clearly visible on the x-Rays despite being impossible to see on the early ones.
Again, not a doctor, and probably seriously in breach of forum rules re medical advice, but in essence my advice is seek medical advice.

Rb

Hi Rb,

Thanks for taking the time to write this. My girlfriend is a physio and she had the same concern as you. Gave me a full check up last night and thinks I am fine and that we will keep an eye on the hand. But there is no pain whatsoever in it today so I don't think it is anything to worry about.

Thanks again for all the replies. Careful out there.

07Lapierre

It should be:

1.Learn to cycle
2.Learn to ride a Motorbike
3.Learn to drive a car
4.Learn to Drive a Rigid Truck
5.Learn to Drive a HGV

If you want to driver a Car: 1-3
if you want to drive a HGV: 1-5
(at the moment to drive a HGV you only need 3-5)

Brian Lighthouse

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

That said, as a cyclist, nothing can or will prepare you for a car coming from behind, that suddenly decides to pull across you or just passes you and then stops without warning as if you were not there.

True statement.
Just to make it clear when I said cyclists were hard to see at times, I didn't mean it as an excuse for inattentive driving from some motorists.

I still see people sending text messages and dialing while driving - not as much these days, but still an occurrence. In city traffic the driver will more than likely be grand following a collision, but a pedestrian or cyclist will most certainly be not.

As a driver I was just about to leave a junction turning left when a cyclist appeared to be turning right (he was stationed at the right hand corner of the stop line). I looked at him, He never signaled to me and all indications showed that he was turning right. When the road cleared I began to move and this guy comes into my view crossing directly in front of me. The only reason I stopped and did not run into him was because I looked to see if he was actually turning right. If I had taken a sip out of my coffee, he was on the ground or across the bonnet. He stopped to glare at me. I quite rightly - in my opinion - called him a "****ing idiot" and I asked him "was he looking for an insurance claim, because he'd have one for assault and battery if he didn't **** off." He cycled off, never even said a word.

As a cyclist I was knocked from my bike when a car passenger opened their door with accompanying screams of "NOOOOO" from both the driver and myself. Worst thing about that was there was a railing on my left and a car door on my right. The car door hit my front wheel and drove it into the railing. If the traffic was moving I would have been traveling faster and I would have ended up over the handle bars, but thankfully I was moving at a walking pace. I hurt my hand as it hit the car door on the narrowest edge near the window. The lady asked me where I had come from and the driver - perhaps her daughter - was extremely apologetic and considerate. I explained that I heard her shouting at her passenger. It is not always drivers who are inattentive or inconsiderate.

As a pedestrian I was midway across a pelican crossing when a car kept coming and wasn't stopping. I said to myself this will be expensive for this guy and I stopped walking. He slammed on the brake and the car stopped an inch from me. He said he didn't see me. Now that was a dozy driver. I had stepped onto the pelican crossing when my side was clear and his car was about 20 metres from those black and white lines. When I was three quarters of the way across, he was about two metres from me and he was still coming. That's when I stopped. That's when he stopped. I leaned on his bonnet and pointed to where I had just left. It was a primary school.

Mr Rubicon Conundrum

I haven't read the whole thread, but my 2p worth - I was knocked off in December, in shock for a few mins, I ranted and raved at the very scared lady. Then I calmed down, took her details and told her everything seemed fine, and we went our separate ways. Later on I noticed I couldn't engage the large ring on FD, brought bike to shop - it was out of alignment and hairline cracks.

So, always get details, tell them that you will need to get bike looked over too and that bills will be forwarded. I got full cost of replacement bike from the lady.

This is assuming that you are not physically hurt of course, which luckily I wasn't in this case.

RainyDay

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

That said, as a cyclist, nothing can or will prepare you for a car coming from behind, that suddenly decides to pull across you or just passes you and then stops without warning as if you were not there.

Yes and no. Regular and frequent over-the-shoulder lifesaver checks will prepare you for cars coming from behind. Most of the time, I've a good idea of how close and how fast the car coming from behind is.

There is indeed the risk of them doing something unexpected once they pass, but cars passing should not be a surprise in itself.

hardCopy wrote: »

I think a lot of "I didn't see you" incidents should really be "I saw you but I thought I'd make it"

Fully agree, particularly for faster cyclists. Lots of drivers see a cyclist and assume that cyclist = slow, therefore they go ahead with their manoeuvre, and the cyclist ends up having to brake or adjust course to accommodate.

BrianHenryIE

Mr Rubicon Conundrum wrote: »

Then I calmed down, took her details and told her everything seemed fine, and we went our separate ways. Later on I noticed I couldn't engage the large ring on FD, brought bike to shop - it was out of alignment and hairline cracks.

I didn't take someone's details once and then 100m up the road my rear derailleur fell off!

terrydel

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I drove a motor bike for Two years and would agree with most of that. Anticipation is key, and the day you go out thinking you have motorcycling or cycling cracked may be the day you do not see the end of.

That said, as a cyclist, nothing can or will prepare you for a car coming from behind, that suddenly decides to pull across you or just passes you and then stops without warning as if you were not there.

As a motorcyclist that is unlikely to happen because you are generally travelling faster and thus harder to overtake in the first place.

Not generally mate, always
120hp on a 190kg bike is a wonderful thing!
Ive always said the power is as much a benefit as it is dangerous.

Kaisr Sose

terrydel wrote: »

Not generally mate, always .

Wrong, but let's not pick holes or post for the sake of it.

The extra power is great but only when used appropriately. I see motorbikes going slow or slowing all the time while cars pass them by. It's quite normal. If you never slow, maybe you should, when the need arrises or conditions warrant it.

Finally, call me K or Kaisr, but not 'mate' - it's a bit condescending.

Father Ted Crilly

07Lapierre wrote: »

It should be:

1.Learn to cycle
2.Learn to ride a Motorbike
3.Learn to drive a car
4.Learn to Drive a Rigid Truck
5.Learn to Drive a HGV

If you want to driver a Car: 1-3
if you want to drive a HGV: 1-5
(at the moment to drive a HGV you only need 3-5)

Maybe learn to walk first?

Planet X

Can we just knock this on the head please.
It's getting a bit trite?
Same old same old.........