Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum

tomato1234

Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum?

pl4ichjgy17zwd

I wouldn't get upset 'at' them (get mad etc) but I'd have little interest in being part of their lives any longer.

ShoulderChip

Crew Crooked Oarlock wrote: »

I wouldn't get upset 'at' them (get mad etc) but I'd have little interest in being part of their lives any longer.

It's dangerous to mix politics and friends.

eviltwin

I think it would be testament to the character of the person that they could know that and not let it affect them.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

ShoulderChip wrote: »

It's dangerous to mix politics and friends.

If they were FG supporters and I was Labour we'd get on fine. Them thinking I should be treated as unequal under the law is a whole different kettle of fish.

Annasopra

Yes it is very upsetting.

My Dad might vote no. But it's very complicated.

IrishTrajan

Of course not, why would I care about what someone votes? That's the equivalent of asking a person if they'd get mad that their family for voting yes. It is a democratic right to exercise how they wish, and being "angry" at someone over their opinion is absolute nonsense.

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it would be testament to the character of the person that they could know that and not let it affect them.

Yeah, it's almost like some people realize that not everyone is alike and aren't willing to sacrifice friendships and familial relationships over a single vote that ultimately doesn't affect them.

ShoulderChip

Crew Crooked Oarlock wrote: »

If they were FG supporters and I was Labour we'd get on fine. Them thinking I should be treated as unequal under the law is a whole different kettle of fish.

This is the crux of it, this is hugely important to you, and you are personify in the debate, to them they may not just as you may not associate supporting one politician or religion over another as a personal attack on their beliefs or all they stand for. It just gets messy, I have already seen ridiculous fights between my gay friends over this, people fighting over what is best to do to support the yes campaign etc, in the long run I think you have to fight for what you believe in but don't let what others believe after you have given it your best shot affect you. I'm gay, I have mixed feelings about whether I want to vote or not, right now I can't tell some of my friends this as they would go mental, that's not ideal.

SparkySpitfire

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Of course not, why would I care about what someone votes? That's the equivalent of asking a person if they'd get mad that their family for voting yes. It is a democratic right to exercise how they wish, and being "angry" at someone over their opinion is absolute nonsense.

Yeah, it's almost like some people realize that not everyone is alike and aren't willing to sacrifice friendships and familial relationships over a single vote that ultimately doesn't affect them.

People get angry over others' opinions all the time. It's a perfectly valid thing to do. Have you ever seen a talk show? Read the letters to the editor in a newspaper? Debated on a message board?

Maybe my opinion is that all disabled people should be drowned at birth. Is it nonsense for people to be angry at that?

I can't make sense of the second part of your post.

eviltwin

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Of course not, why would I care about what someone votes? That's the equivalent of asking a person if they'd get mad that their family for voting yes. It is a democratic right to exercise how they wish, and being "angry" at someone over their opinion is absolute nonsense.



Yeah, it's almost like some people realize that not everyone is alike and aren't willing to sacrifice friendships and familial relationships over a single vote that ultimately doesn't affect them.

I think it would be an insult if a member of my family voted no. I'm not gay but my daughter is so it's not some abstract hypothetical person, it's a real person my family knows and loves. They would need to have a bloody good reason to vote no. Even then I don't think I could get past it. I'd feel I was letting my daughter down. Someone in my family actually refused to attend my wedding because it wasn't in a church, we've never been able to get past it. I think this would be the same.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

ShoulderChip wrote: »

This is the crux of it, this is hugely important to you, and you are personify in the debate, to them they may not just as you may not associate supporting one politician or religion over another as a personal attack on their beliefs or all they stand for. It just gets messy, I have already seen ridiculous fights between my gay friends over this, people fighting over what is best to do to support the yes campaign etc, in the long run I think you have to fight for what you believe in but don't let what others believe after you have given it your best shot affect you. I'm gay, I have mixed feelings about whether I want to vote or not, right now I can't tell some of my friends this as they would go mental, that's not ideal.

And removing people who think I'm less than is doing just that. Why would I carry on a relationship where I'm not viewed as equal? If anything, continuing the relationship would be letting it affect me.

Annasopra

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Of course not, why would I care about what someone votes? That's the equivalent of asking a person if they'd get mad that their family for voting yes. It is a democratic right to exercise how they wish, and being "angry" at someone over their opinion is absolute nonsense.



Yeah, it's almost like some people realize that not everyone is alike and aren't willing to sacrifice friendships and familial relationships over a single vote that ultimately doesn't affect them.

It so much more than how a person votes and reducing it down to the vote is frankly insulting to many of us who are upset about this.

ShoulderChip

Crew Crooked Oarlock wrote: »

And removing people who think I'm less than is doing just that. Why would I carry on a relationship where I'm not viewed as equal? If anything, continuing the relationship would be letting it affect me.

True but what about the next political vote and the next one if you keep removing people from your life after they disagree with something that is huge to you that they may not have xonsider d very well there may not be too many people left, if other people start doing it to you too.
Think of the vote on the presidential election, there may be someone that you know who has been prevented from progressing in their career due to ageism, they may feel very strongly about the vote, and see a no vote as a direct attack on them as a result, now you may not know too much about the vote but on the day just think that you don't want a 21 year old president, would you be content that they by your own logic should then disown you?

pl4ichjgy17zwd

ShoulderChip wrote: »

True but what about the next political vote and the next one if you keep removing people from your life after they disagree with something that is huge to you that they may not have xonsider d very well there may not be too many people left, if other people start doing it to you too.
Think of the vote on the presidential election, there may be someone that you know who has been prevented from progressing in their career due to ageism, they may feel very strongly about the vote, and see a no vote as a direct attack on them as a result, now you may not know too much about the vote but on the day just think that you don't want a 21 year old president, would you be content that they by your own logic should then disown you?

To be fair, that's far more convoluted than this vote, which will actually, 100% and directly affect my life. They could not vote FG because a FG TD cut them off once. It's hardly the same. If they felt strongly enough to not want to talk to me any more, it's their choice. If they're voting no, then they care about their beliefs more than they care about me. Doesn't sound like something I'd stay involved in.

Also I believe in the same opportunities for everyone, so I would never vote against something that hinders that.

IrishTrajan

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it would be an insult if a member of my family voted no. I'm not gay but my daughter is so it's not some abstract hypothetical person, it's a real person my family knows and loves. They would need to have a bloody good reason to vote no. Even then I don't think I could get past it. I'd feel I was letting my daughter down. Someone in my family actually refused to attend my wedding because it wasn't in a church, we've never been able to get past it. I think this would be the same.

I have gay friends, I've kissed a guy before (didn't much like it), so I'm not a staunch "No marriage for gays!" person. I'm saying that ultimately what happens behind the curtain is not anyone else's business. Being pressured into voting yes despite wanting to vote no because people will ridicule you and break their ties with you is no way to operate a democracy.

That second part sounds ridiculously childish, lol. You're probably no worse off for not talking to them much any more.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It so much more than how a person votes and reducing it down to the vote is frankly insulting to many of us who are upset about this.

There could be any number of reasons as to why they want to vote no. Not wanting future conflict between a Churches' right to deny marriages and the right of gay people to get married, not wanting to redefine the right of biological parents... Just saying "if you vote no, I'll not like you anymore" isn't democratic and is emotionally and psychologically manipulative (probably rightly so).

road_high

I'd take it hugely personal. It's my life and potential future they would be deciding to right off with the stroke of a pencil. It would mean they view me as a lesser citizen and my life wouldn't be afforded the same privileges as them (assuming they're straight of course). If I knew someone that did that friend/family things would not be the same again, how could they be

eviltwin

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I have gay friends, I've kissed a guy before (didn't much like it), so I'm not a staunch "No marriage for gays!" person. I'm saying that ultimately what happens behind the curtain is not anyone else's business. Being pressured into voting yes despite wanting to vote no because people will ridicule you and break their ties with you is no way to operate a democracy.

That second part sounds ridiculously childish, lol. You're probably no worse off for not talking to them much any more.



There could be any number of reasons as to why they want to vote no. Not wanting future conflict between a Churches' right to deny marriages and the right of gay people to get married, not wanting to redefine the right of biological parents... Just saying "if you vote no, I'll not like you anymore" isn't democratic and is emotionally and psychologically manipulative (probably rightly so).

I might have family and friends who are voting no, I'm specifically referring to someone who would tell me their intentions. It would hurt, it would be saying gay people aren't equal and I don't accept that. If it wasn't so personal I probably wouldn't mind, anyone other than my child I would probably not feel as strongly about it but I've been there to witness the impact of discrimination on her and her partner and that will always come first for me. It's not easy to remain on good terms with someone who refuses to accept your relationship, it's not childish to step away from that kind of person. I certainly wouldn't pressure anyone to vote either way and I wouldn't give anyone ultimatums

Annasopra

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I have gay friends, I've kissed a guy before (didn't much like it), so I'm not a staunch "No marriage for gays!" person. I'm saying that ultimately what happens behind the curtain is not anyone else's business. Being pressured into voting yes despite wanting to vote no because people will ridicule you and break their ties with you is no way to operate a democracy.

That second part sounds ridiculously childish, lol. You're probably no worse off for not talking to them much any more.



There could be any number of reasons as to why they want to vote no. Not wanting future conflict between a Churches' right to deny marriages and the right of gay people to get married, not wanting to redefine the right of biological parents... Just saying "if you vote no, I'll not like you anymore" isn't democratic and is emotionally and psychologically manipulative (probably rightly so).

You seem to keep treating this argument in a reductive manner. First you reduced it to - "Its just a vote" - then you reduced it to - we're all telling peeople "if you vote no, I'll not like you anymore". The issue is much more nuanced than you like to make out. As well ad that you also keep trying to dismiss our hurt and anger again reductively with a slight of hand. It's fascinating. You are concerned more about the voter but not about the impact on us as lgbt people. I find that really interesting - how you try to minimise our arguments and wave away our hurt and anger as some sort of attack on democracy.

Fleawuss

A no vote is a declaration that I am in their eyes a second class citizen and that is good enough for me. People who belittle you deserve to find consequences to that belittlement.

Akrasia

eviltwin wrote: »

Someone in my family actually refused to attend my wedding because it wasn't in a church, we've never been able to get past it. I think this would be the same.

I've been thinking about this, And actually, I think this is a really powerful tool to get someone to understand just what they're voting for/against

The people I know who are voting no all say 'I've nothing against gay people, it's just...."

The next time someone says this to me, I'll ask them "Ok, so, lets say the referrendum is passed and your gay cousin/sister/friend/child invites you to his/her wedding. Will you decline the invitation?

This will force them to either say "Yes, I will refuse to attend" and force them to confront their own attitudes towards the people in their lives, or it will force them to think about how opposed to gay marriage they really are.

The problem with many 'no' voters, is that they are not connecting the vote with people in their own lives who will be directly affected by it.

My mother in law wants to vote no because of some nonsense John Waters came out with. She never even considered that this would deny rights to her own son (and her nephew, and her brother in law and probably others in her life that I don't know about). It just never entered her mind. She doesn't think of him as 'gay' even though he is out.

gleesonger

Over the past few weeks I felt that the emotional anger as expressed in this forum towards the No side has caused me to want to vote no. For no reason other than I don't like political bullying and that people have the right to vote as they see fit with no fear of retribution.

Many here will vote yes due to very emotive personal experiance, those with no experience do not have such an advantage. They approach the situation quite impassively and do not intend any personal hurt by their view, if they encounter a backlash they may well becoming entrenched in their position.

What the Yes side should concentrate on is communicating the very real and personal side of this issue. Help the No voters understand (in a safe environment free from hate) the great personal pain it can cause.

Mitch Connor

I'd be shocked and disappointed if anyone in my close family would vote No. I would think them more compassionate and opened minded than to vote No. I could only imagine how my brother would feel in such a situation too.

Mitch Connor

Also, I think anyone who is going to Vote No to basically spite the Yes side, is a coward who was looking for a 'valid' reason to vote no in the first place, and is jumping on an easy way of justifying a no vote to themselves. Otherwise, how can they look past some of the disgusting arguments put forward by the no side. If they were really being swayed simply by the style of message, they should be put off voting for either side, not picking one over the other.

Huntergonzo

gleesonger wrote: »

Over the past few weeks I felt that the emotional anger as expressed in this forum towards the No side has caused me to want to vote no. For no reason other than I don't like political bullying and that people have the right to vote as they see fit with no fear of retribution.

Many here will vote yes due to very emotive personal experiance, those with no experience do not have such an advantage. They approach the situation quite impassively and do not intend any personal hurt by their view, if they encounter a backlash they may well becoming entrenched in their position.

What the Yes side should concentrate on is communicating the very real and personal side of this issue. Help the No voters understand (in a safe environment free from hate) the great personal pain it can cause.

To be fair I think by and large the Yes side have tried to engage, but I think the No side are the ones to be weary of, they're the ones who are constantly trying to whip up fear and I rarely trust a person or organisation who does that, it's manipulation.

Now I'm not gay and I don't have any gay friends (that I know of anyway), but I would always have been in the Yes camp on this issue, I don't need to see any posters, I don't need to see any debates etc all I was interested in doing was reading the question being asked in the referendum, once I done that it confirmed by support.

Now I'm not a goody two shoes, I drink to excess on weekends, I gamble occasionally, I sleep around a bit etc etc I'm no role model!!! but I can't stand listening to people calling for inequality and telling ordinary people (which homosexuals are) that they can't do what other ordinary people can do (get married in this instance) and not even give a credible reason why. It's ridiculous to me and in decades to come I know we'll look back laughing so why not just get it out of the way and vote Yes now instead of doing it the next time, because it will happen eventually.

Akrasia

gleesonger wrote: »

Over the past few weeks I felt that the emotional anger as expressed in this forum towards the No side has caused me to want to vote no. For no reason other than I don't like political bullying and that people have the right to vote as they see fit with no fear of retribution.

Many here will vote yes due to very emotive personal experiance, those with no experience do not have such an advantage. They approach the situation quite impassively and do not intend any personal hurt by their view, if they encounter a backlash they may well becoming entrenched in their position.

What the Yes side should concentrate on is communicating the very real and personal side of this issue. Help the No voters understand (in a safe environment free from hate) the great personal pain it can cause.

Do you not think that the emotional blackmail by the no side 'won't someone please think of the children' is worse than the passionate pleading for equality and recognition from the yes side?

Members of the LGBT community who are campaigning for a yes vote are campaigning for acceptance as equals into Irish society. Those campaigning against the referendum are campaigning on the basis that the LGBT community are less than equal and not fit to raise children or that allowing them to marry would somehow devalue the 'institution of marriage'

ongarboy

This is a hard one for me. My mother is deeply Catholic and only views marriage in the sacrament of the Church sense rather than the legal sense. I fear she will vote No as she would feel otherwise that she would be voting against the religion she is a devout follower of. Ironically and unsurprisingly, she also disapproves of sex before marriage so in true Catholic fashion, doesn't even entertain the notion of how that might be a problem for me! At least my straight siblings got the same hassle from that when it came to moving in with their partners before marriage!

I would be upset and saddened but could not sever all ties with her over this as proposed by some other posters as life isn't that black and white particularly with family relationships.

timetogo

My folks are voting no. I am upset with them. My dad is homophobic and always has been. For this referendum he's worried about the children. I know, don't bother telling me about it.

My mother is a common Catholic. Goes to mass on Sundays, holy days and no mention of god is mentioned outside of mass. Ever.
Except for now. In the context of this referendum she does. Marriage is a sacrament. I know, again, this is nothing about religious marriage but I can't get it through to her. I got married in a registry office and she never expressed any reservations about that.
I think it's hugely hypocritical to pick and choose what you follow out of the bible. I can't really understand religion. But that's for a different thread.

Obviously I'm not going to cut ties with them but it does affect how I think about them to a small extent. I'm not gay but to me it shows a lack of empathy and understanding of their fellow man. They get a certain amount of leeway though as I can blame it on society on when they were young. Now they seem to be at an age where their minds are set and they don't really change them anymore.

Huntergonzo

ongarboy wrote: »

This is a hard one for me. My mother is deeply Catholic and only views marriage in the sacrament of the Church sense rather than the legal sense. I fear she will vote No as she would feel otherwise that she would be voting against the religion she is a devout follower of. Ironically and unsurprisingly, she also disapproves of sex before marriage so in true Catholic fashion, doesn't even entertain the notion of how that might be a problem for me! At least my straight siblings got the same hassle from that when it came to moving in with their partners before marriage!

I would be upset and saddened but could not sever all ties with her over this as proposed by some other posters as life isn't that black and white particularly with family relationships.

I don't think anybody should suggest that you sever all ties with your mother over this issue, your relationship with your mother is a very personal thing and it's not for any of us to judge.

Personally my parents were never strict catholics, infact they rarely go to mass these days and don't even seem to believe in most of the doctrine. Also I stopped believing in God when I was in my teens and have no time for the church or their opinions so if one of my parents was devoutly catholic I'd imagine we'd be at serious odds well before this referendum ever came up

galljga1

I am not gay so, I have no direct vested interest in this but I have to admit that my opinion of people I know has been altered by their declarations to vote No or Yes. No one has produced a valid argument for a no vote apart from "I have nothing against them but....."

Huntergonzo

galljga1 wrote: »

I am not gay so, I have no direct vested interest in this but I have to admit that my opinion of people I know has been altered by their declarations to vote No or Yes. No one has produced a valid argument for a no vote apart from "I have nothing against them but....."

Like you I'm not gay but I've met maybe 2 or 3 people who are claiming to be voting No to just 'protect' children but I don't trust that opinion because it doesn't add up. Most of the other No voters I've met (there haven't been too many in fairness) are friends and acquaintances who have no vested interest in being PC and all of them have said they're voting No because they either 'don't like' or 'hate' homosexuals and a few of them have used the term "dirty bas***ds".

Now they are still friends but it does make you wonder how they came to these conclusions and how I never knew they felt so strongly against other ordinary people.

Greenmachine

I think plenty of the older generation will vote no, on account of their catholic belief system. If I were gay or had siblings or relatives who identified as gay, I might be more upset by this difference in opinion. I will vote yes for this however and hope it passes.