Irish Firearms & Hunting training Academy

juice1304

I dont understand how someone wanting to help train people to improve their skills makes them a back stabber? Of course people are going to make a living from something they have done in the past professionally and something they are passionate about...
And to be fair there are an awful lot of people who could do with pointers on safety, general firearms knowledge and basic fundamentals among other things. The amount of absolute ****e you hear on ranges from "experts" is alarming.
I see the same thing everyday in work people coming to me telling me their firearms dont shoot or the work they wanted done wasn't done properly, we arrange to test it together on the range they shoot a 6 inch group and say look at that blaaa and then i ask if i may try it myself and it will shoot a ragged hole... caused usually by trigger control, some of them will take the advise on what they are doing wrong and will see an instant improvement others will go nuts and still know everything..
I knew about albi wanting to set something up like that for a long long time before he did... He is not someone trying to con people out of money, He wants to help people and share knowledge with people.
And knowledge and credentials he has.. He is extremely knowledgeable on all things relating to firearms and ballistics..
That is the problem with the shooting community in Ireland everyone only ever looking for something to bitch and moan about, constantly trying to see something wrong with everything.
I dont see why anyone would want to go to the bother of trying to set up a business with something they have a passion for only to be **** on for doing so at every waking moment and opportunity.
If you dont want training then dont take it its that simple..
There should be some form of standardized test however seen as how the government cant even write firearms laws without making a complete mess of it that is never going to happen. There will always be people seeking training to improve themselves.. and their knowledge.. and more power to them.
There is also problems with self appointed wizards seeking to further their own little agendas, but you can be sure not to find that with him.

Sparks

Juice, to quote an earlier post that you must have missed....

Sparks wrote: »

As mentioned above, just because something is legal and sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it's good for the sport, even in the absence of perfidity.

As to the negative comments above, they're fair.
Allegations wouldn't be; if you see any, report them and they'll be deleted (some already have been).

There are two reasons why they're fair:

• People have a past history with the people involved in the area of training and have negative opinions as a result. I'm not talking about me, by the way. How valid those opinions are today, I don't know and don't care to get into that. But if we banned everyone who had an opinion we didn't care for, this place would be a lot smaller and a lot quieter and we'd have more time for pints, so please stop tempting us
• To call this a sensitive time for shooting sports in Ireland is to understate things to the point of absurdity. We haven't faced a situation this delicate in decades, with potential outcomes that could be highly destructive to our sports, even rendering many of them untenable or just plain extinct. If you're launching a company in such a timeframe, PR is a part of the process. If you think that launching a training company from a location that could be readily associated with some people who are lobbying for increased mandatory training and you don't do that PR, well, this thread is the kind of thing that happens because reasonable people ask genuine questions. It's unfortunate, not fatal, and no perfidity is involved on either side. And frankly, if you were to go googling the company as a non-shooter, this thread is not one of the results any investor would worry about. The Streisand effect is happening here.

TL;DR: someone screwed up their PR, people asked valid questions, stuff has been answered, nothing illegal is going on, that topic is pretty much done. Some people won't think much of this company, some will. That's also perfectly valid. There's a wider topic here that's worth talking about; you can do so if you wish.

Walter Mittys Brother

Training is fine for those who need it or even want it. But compulsary training for those who don't need it is where I draw the line as do many others.

While we're on the subject many who tell good war stories have never seen action. The ones who say nothing have though.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

I
I
If you dont want training then dont take it its that simple..
There should be some form of standardized test however

Oxymoron..much?:)

gunny123

juice1304 wrote: »

I dont understand how someone wanting to help train people to improve their skills makes them a back stabber? Of course people are going to make a living from something they have done in the past professionally and something they are passionate about...

Wanting to train people isn't backstabbing, creeping to the ptb looking to have it "standardised" or made compulsory, certainly is.

Anyone giving courses professionally that i have met are passionate alright, usually about money in my experience.

juice1304

I did read the post and my post was in relation to the comment on the previous page.

I think there should be some sort of compulsory training, however not from a private company as that just breeds nonsense,
but from a government body such as the NPWS, if it were a thing they were capable (which they currently are not) and it should be free. If it is free there is nothing for anyone to gain financially, no boards of self appointed experts to rule over the other plebs and i dont see how it would hinder anyone from getting involved.
Everyone needs some level of training and to say otherwise is simply silly.
I think a basic understanding of safety, firearms maintenance, ballistics and Irish firearms law should be mandatory and for those that want to hunt then a few questions on very basic aspects of the wildlife act. Very very simple things....

Im not saying it should be something crazy like it is here in Germany were the regulations are ridiculous and a very expensive process.

There is too much ignorance and complacency in relation to firearms i think. And eventually there will be an accident and it will look really terrible. Just thinking about the amount of people walking around with barrels not on face makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Even in the states somewhere we shouldnt mention here because of their apparent lax laws and their 2a etc... In all states you have to take a mandatory training course to get a hunting licence.

In relation to the tread though about the specif company like i said it is for people to better themselves which is why i chimed in.

gunny123

juice1304 wrote: »

I did read the post and my post was in relation to the comment on the previous page.

I think there should be some sort of compulsory training, however not from a private company as that just breeds nonsense,
but from a government body such as the NPWS, if it were a thing they were capable (which they currently are not) and it should be free. If it is free there is nothing for anyone to gain financially, no boards of self appointed experts to rule over the other plebs and i dont see how it would hinder anyone from getting involved.
Everyone needs some level of training and to say otherwise is simply silly.
I think a basic understanding of safety, firearms maintenance, ballistics and Irish firearms law should be mandatory and for those that want to hunt then a few questions on very basic aspects of the wildlife act. Very very simple things....

Im not saying it should be something crazy like it is here in Germany were the regulations are ridiculous and a very expensive process.

There is too much ignorance and complacency in relation to firearms i think. And eventually there will be an accident and it will look really terrible. Just thinking about the amount of people walking around with barrels not on face makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Even in the states somewhere we shouldnt mention here because of their apparent lax laws and their 2a etc... In all states you have to take a mandatory training course to get a hunting licence.

In relation to the tread though about the specif company like i said it is for people to better themselves which is why i chimed in.

So apart from shooters training, you want a gun nct ?

juice1304

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oxymoron..much?:)

No a government standardized test to ensure safety and people wanting to pay to learn about different hunting situations, shooting from angles, long range shooting, coaching etc... are two completely things.
I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.

gunny123

juice1304 wrote: »

I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.

Yeah, i hate it too. I promise to be less vigilant and more gullible in future so :rolleyes:

juice1304

gunny123 wrote: »

So apart from shooters training, you want a gun nct ?

No i didnt say that, but people should have an understanding themselves about what is safe and what is not safe... that would go with having a basic knowledge. As in give it a shake if it rattles take it to be looked at as it could mean excessive headspace which is bad when dealing with 1100-4500bar. I dont think that should be too difficult. It could all (safety, maintenance, law etc..) be in a small 5 page pamphlet with picture...

123shooter

juice1304 wrote: »

No i didnt say that, but people should have an understanding themselves about what is safe and what is not safe... that would go with having a basic knowledge. As in give it a shake if it rattles take it to be looked at as it could mean excessive headspace which is bad when dealing with 1100-4500bar. I dont think that should be too difficult. It could all (safety, maintenance, law etc..) be in a small 5 page pamphlet with picture...

Put it this way:..........

If there was a test to obtain a licence for a gun which was to be taken at each renewal every 3 years, and every calibre and kind of gun was licenceable, and every kind of shooting was available to those who pass their licence.........so you could have any pistol calibre and even semi-auto rifles, and these guns could be used at approved ranges which would with the renewed shooting interest start to spring up all over the country to cater for the large amount of shooters coming on the scene............Then this lot would most likely change their minds.

gunny123

123shooter wrote: »

Put it this way:..........

If their was a test to obtain a licence for a gun which was to be taken at each renewal every 3 years and every calibre and kind of gun was licenceable and every kind of shooting was available to those who pass their licence.........so you could have any pistol calibre and even semi-auto rifles and these guns could be used at approved ranges which would with the renewed shooting interest start to spring up all over the country to cater for the large amount of shooters coming on the scene............Then this lot would most likely change their minds.

You can already have semi-auto rifles. As for the rest, its la-la land stuff. The gardai would never allow the return of centre-fire pistols, especially just because someone had done some half-arsed evening course.

123shooter

gunny123 wrote: »

You can already have semi-auto rifles. As for the rest, its la-la land stuff. The gardai would never allow the return of centre-fire pistols, especially just because someone had done some half-arsed evening course.

Totally besides the point. Whether it could happen or not is irrelevent and any half arsed course would never be enough.

If there was enough people demanding it then eventually it would happen. The trouble is you get walked over because you are a minority without any clout and not in control of your public image.

Your clout would be you are heavily trained and responsible and this would portray a high public image with many people participating.

gunny123

123shooter wrote: »

Totally besides the point. Whether it could happen or not is irrelevent and any half arsed course would never be enough.

If there was enough people demanding it then eventually it would happen. The trouble is you get walked over because you are a minority without any clout and not in control of your public image.

Your clout would be you are heavily trained and responsible and this would portray a high public image with many people participating.

We are a minority and will always be so. There is nothing stopping the vast majority of the public taking up shooting in the morning if they so chose. The problem is the media here are totally anti-gun and the public have swallowed that, that is not going to change. You are either the slayer of Bambi's mother, or a "gun nut" with a high powered .22 rifle that wants to shoot up schools.

So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.

123shooter

gunny123 wrote: »

So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.

I agree and never will because the Irish way is to shoot;) something down before it's even started.

Always find the negative before you even look at the positive.

Sparks

juice1304 wrote: »

I think there should be some sort of compulsory training

Well, there is - you're mandatorily required to provide proof of competence.
It's just that there's more than one way to do that. Most learn the way we've learned for centuries, over a period of weeks and months in a club setting as skills build solidly over time - something a time-limited course can never provide.
Some will be trained by the defence forces, some will do courses, some will learn from family over a period of years, and so on. There are too many ways to learn that have existed for too many centuries for it to be viable to just draft a new training course to replace all of them.

Sadly, that wouldn't stop people from trying

it should be free.

Can you think of any other kind of training provided by the state - whether or not it's to do with something that's licenced - which is free?
I've been trying to and I can't think of any.
Which means the state would have no trouble in levying a fee.
Which means now you'd have a mandatory paid training course, for a sport with a near-perfect safety record stretching back centuries and with training methods developed over generations to support that, all because...

...actually, what is the because? The main risk I see to safety in our sport these days is the introduction of courses without regulation - and I certainly agree, that's a horrible accident waiting to happen. But honestly, banning the courses would seem a cheaper, easier, safer approach than introducing a state training course, especially when the state has no competency at all in civilian firearms training.


edit: That's not me calling for courses to be banned. I'm just saying that if the choice was between mandatory state training and banning private courses, I'd ban private courses in a heartbeat. It's a better option. But if we had a free choice, I'd keep them, they're useful for edge cases. I'd just have them regulated instead of being the dangerous free-for-all nonsense they are today.

Sparks

123shooter wrote: »

Always find the negative before you even look at the positive.

Yes, that's called experience.

Personally, I don't like saying that it's "looking for the negative" to look both ways before you step out into the road and get hit by a bus.

123shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, that's called experience.

Personally, I don't like saying that it's "looking for the negative" to look both ways before you step out into the road and get hit by a bus.

So you stand still and dont cross the road and dont go anywhere.

Another saying is.....if you never try anything you will never do anything.

Could be here forever.

gunny123

123shooter wrote: »

So you stand still and dont cross the road and dont go anywhere.

Another saying is.....if you never try anything you will never do anything.

Could be here forever.

Or cross the road an find you are no better off, but have to pay for the experience.

123shooter

gunny123 wrote: »

Or cross the road an find you are no better off, but have to pay for the experience.

Yep they all sound good the only difference is........you will die wondering.

Walter Mittys Brother

123shooter wrote: »

Yep they all sound good the only difference is........you will die wondering.

And richer

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

We are a minority and will always be so. There is nothing stopping the vast majority of the public taking up shooting in the morning if they so chose. The problem is the media here are totally anti-gun and the public have swallowed that, that is not going to change. You are either the slayer of Bambi's mother, or a "gun nut" with a high powered .22 rifle that wants to shoot up schools.

So Ireland changing into a shooting sports utopia like Switzerland or America is never going to happen.

The clout will come once some Hadjis go "Aloha Snackbar" in our cities and towns a couple of times and once the Brits start considering it,we follow.Already they are starting to discuss this,and with time the average Joe will start talking about it too..Already there is a push on in the EU for concealed carry,and there has been EU wide an uptake in people suddenly intrested in joining gun clubs and hunting courses... Give it time...:)

No a government standardized test to ensure safety and people wanting to pay to learn about different hunting situations, shooting from angles, long range shooting, coaching etc... are two completely things.
I just hate seeing people constantly bashing others and the general politics that goes with shooting in Ireland.

Seeing that this lot farm out everything in testing these days to NGBs or quangoes.You will end up with a for profit organisation running the show,like what is almost proposed here. As for a course in the US to get your der hunting liscense.It's the NRA hunter saftey course,which you only need to do in a few states,and it takes all of a Saturday to do. Picture HCAP without the massive padding and price gouging.

The reason most people are dead set against this is simply we know we will be jacked over by the State handing the training to someone of our own who will make profit out of us.Fool us once an all that...

It will be padded to hell to make it look difficult and that you are getting value for money..And proably have to do it for every class of firearm out here.
As you can see by this company in question,they are going from amatuer hunter to "master hunter"[Whatever the Hell that is!] and no doubt paying for each step.Sort of like Scientology that plan.

There will be no doubt some sort of "resit value"clause that you have to re do it every 3or 5 years at an increasing cost

It will not be cheap either.

123shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote:

The clout will come once some Hadjis go "Aloha Snackbar" in our cities and towns a couple of times and once the Brits start considering it,we follow.Already they are starting to discuss this,and with time the average Joe will start talking about it too..Already there is a push on in the EU for concealed carry,and there has been EU wide an uptake in people suddenly intrested in joining gun clubs and hunting courses... Give it time...:)

The only one:


Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.............at the same time attracting thousands of more people in to the sport which would widen and grow accordingly..............and at the same time give yourselves some massive clout if needed and very much alter the public image.

A bit of fantasy but anythings possible and as you say similar to Switzerland. But I bet Grizzly would be there;)

Instead we have begrudgers.

123shooter

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

And richer

Well if you can spend money when you are dead.....good luck to you.:)

Grizzly 45

123shooter wrote: »

The only one:


Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.............at the same time attracting thousands of more people in to the sport which would widen and grow accordingly..............and at the same time give yourselves some massive clout if needed and very much alter the public image.

A bit of fantasy but anythings possible and as you say similar to Switzerland. But I bet Grizzly would be there;)

Instead we have begrudgers.

Which brings back to the chicken&egg sydrome of the problem..WHO provides the training??The state will run a mile from it on both counts and I belive actively do everything to discourage and sabotage it...As any state will demand a monoply on violence to an individual..If they cant handle us doing a sport like IPSC...What happens when you are teaching CQB drills from a vechicle and from cover with hostage and hostile man targets??

The training for that is a polar opposite from sports shooting involving alot of serious stress and stress fire and chaos going on around you and you dont have time for leisurely reloads or trying for the perfect grouping.
So you will need a polar opposite again in training and qualifications that what is provided here. Someone like "instructor Zero" or Massad Ayoob dont come cheap.[Ironic that you mention Switzerland..It is the only Shenegen country that allows pure defensive combat firearms training for civvies.]

The washout and criteria for this course will have to be phenomal if we want people walking about witth concealed carry firearms.So do we have a massive amout of ultra trained sports shooters with an unnecessary strict testing criteria which discourages newbies.Or people with a normal training and volenteering themselves to go CCWP holders??

Chicken and Duck egg syndrome more like, with someone, somewhere with euro signs in their eyes.

Sparks

123shooter wrote: »

Now if training was given and then this was expanded on where there were different levels of training and certification to the type of gun license and shooting. You could end up with a small army/large army of very highly trained civilians who would be as trained and skilled as military and the majority of the police and even be available if required.

A police commissioner proposed that in the UK last week.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40252299

The entire British police force turned round to tell her that if they wanted vigilantes running the country they'd organise a coalition government with the DUP.

Or to put it in a more Irish tone of voice, the last time we developed a problem in Ireland with terrorism, the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner committed what is technically an act of sedition in order to confiscate everyones firearms and we didn't see them again until they were taken to the supreme court thirty years later.

So no, someone murdering a lot of innocent people actually doesn't have an upside. Funny that.

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

Or to put it in a more Irish tone of voice, the last time we developed a problem in Ireland with terrorism, the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner committed what is technically an act of sedition in order to confiscate everyones firearms and we didn't see them again until they were taken to the supreme court thirty years later.

So no, someone murdering a lot of innocent people actually doesn't have an upside. Funny that.

That particular jape of confiscation didn't do much to stop terrorism either did it ? The paramilitaries wound up better equipped and armed than those trying to stop them. There might be a lesson there for the likes of Ahern or whatever overpaid numbskull is over us now.

Sparks

You're not suggesting that governments learn from errors and only do things that work are you?

Though I have to say, in this case I'd agree with the "don't arm civilians to do the ERU's job" line. I got into target shooting to do a sport with a high degree of difficulty, a great ethos and a fantastic safety record.

If I wanted to shoot at people, I'd have joined the army.
And if I found myself in the middle of a terrorist attack, I'd be remarkably focussed on getting out of the middle of that attack, not trying to play call of duty with real firearms.

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

You're not suggesting that governments learn from errors and only do things that work are you?

God no. No matter how wrong, how much flak is incoming, stick to your guns and maintain everyone else is wrong and you are in the right.

Grizzly 45

Fudd arguement there right off..The "if you want to shoot people or play soilders with assault rifles join the army or police etc."Usually spouted by ex Col Blimps or REMF's from their club armchairs over brandy and fulminating at the state of todays youth,and that a spot in the army would sort them out.:p

No CCW is NOT for everybodyNo one should be forced to do it at all and NO it should not be handed out like sweets to every Tom Dick and Sally it is a VERY grave responsibility and not to be taken lightly by anyone. As I said it is a polar opposite to sports shooting in outlook,mindset ,equipment and skillset.

Where the worlds cross here is simply in the people and their use of a particular firearm type and the fact is there is already a well vetted cadre of about 600 potential volenteers out there.
Were these not difficcult times that involve us here as well in this great little country,no matter how we try and delude ourselvs that we aren't involved and "shure nuthin will happen"itis,no one would be thinking of this or even espousing it.

However if talking and highlighting the issue raises awareness and even got us LESS leathl stuff to deal with a problem here like pepper spray that would be a great step forward..
No one has ever died of pepper spray it is incapacitating and some of the stuff has a spray range up to 15 feet these days. Plus ask any first responder,EMT technican or Garda would they rather be treating someone by pouring MILK in their eyes and exposed skin and a few honks of oxygen,or trying to stitch together a few severed arteries and deep lacerations?

I,myself would not like to end up in a situation like London or Paris in November15 and knowing I have a particular skillset that could end a murderous rampage in seconds and all I can do is fight offf a knife weilding religious fanatic cutting down running unarmed people while I am armed with beer bottles,a skate board,or plastic chairs because thats the only thing a paranoid govt will allow and cant comprehend these attackers dont want a hug and a talking to to solve their problems and that their armed officals are minutes[or in our case here sometimes HOURS away] and deny their citizens effective methods to counter this threat.It would be a most undignified ending.:p

Guess the "sheepdog gene" never goes away in some of us,but ultimately it is up to the shepard to recognise this fact and allow the sheep dog the training to become a most useful and loyal tool. We are now discussing here who will train the sheep dog,who is qualified to do so?And who wont charge rippoff prices just because the shepard needs the dog to do the basics.