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croke park flex hours

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    #32
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    katydid wrote: »
    But it looks like there's not going to be any test case; the guy is just getting away with it while his colleagues do their bit

    I agree somewhat, but in a way I think he's taking a stand moreso than skiving off! Im not sure how its going down in his school either, but I suppose the ball is in the school's court now, if they dont act then who's to blame? Like if he just refused to fill in summer reports and the school refused to do anything then who should his colleagues direct their ire at?

    Id accept that the vote is done and dusted and majority accepted it and we are where we voted to be!


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    #33
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    I agree somewhat, but in a way I think he's taking a stand moreso than skiving off! Im not sure how its going down in his school either, but I suppose the ball is in the school's court now, if they dont act then who's to blame? Like if he just refused to fill in summer reports and the school refused to do anything then who should his colleagues direct their ire at?

    Id accept that the vote is done and dusted and majority accepted it and we are where we voted to be!

    I know he's taking a stand. But I can't imagine it goes down too well with his colleagues, who are toeing the line. A union rep should show leadership, and respect for the union. Including the democratic mandate. If he doesn't accept that, he should step down from his position as union rep, at the very least.

    I agree that the ball is in the school's court, and if they have any guts they would tackle him.

    I say all this as someone who was a union rep for ten years. You can't just ignore the union and do your own thing.


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    #34
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    The point I was making earlier was that there is a certain minimum that is needed and whole we all wouldn't need to do these meetings at the same tine I think that most people would agree that productive meetings are an important part of school life.

    The original 12 hours came about in m58\04 and there was money for 'productivity' in the form of working in the evenings to prevent erosion of class time.

    The 33 hours are separate, they were imposed in an agreement that was supposed to protect pay and jobs. It did neither as the levies, changing ptr and amended sick pay scheme all affected teachers I terms of pay and conditions.

    Personally I think that its the manner of the use of the hours rather than the usefulness of them is the major issue.

    I would rather have some sort of a schedule of required meetings or whatever rather than the 'presentism' that was being discussed in and around the time of CP 1. there are some who would still pursue this agenda.


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    #35
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    The point I was making earlier was that there is a certain minimum that is needed and whole we all wouldn't need to do these meetings at the same tine I think that most people would agree that productive meetings are an important part of school life.

    The original 12 hours came about in m58\04 and there was money for 'productivity' in the form of working in the evenings to prevent erosion of class time.

    The 33 hours are separate, they were imposed in an agreement that was supposed to protect pay and jobs. It did neither as the levies, changing ptr and amended sick pay scheme all affected teachers I terms of pay and conditions.

    Personally I think that its the manner of the use of the hours rather than the usefulness of them is the major issue.

    I would rather have some sort of a schedule of required meetings or whatever rather than the 'presentism' that was being discussed in and around the time of CP 1. there are some who would still pursue this agenda.
    Productive meetings can't happen at the end of the day when teachers are stressed and exhausted, and just want to get home. In my workplace, where we are forced to meet en masse from half four to half five, people make a point of walking out on the dot of half three, even if the principal is in mid sentence.

    We are allowed some flexibility in not having to meet en masse, but we still have to have them at the end of the school day, and the same attitude prevails.

    We have gone from a staff who were full of enthusiasm and ideas to a body of angry, frustrated workers who have neither the time nor inclination to give yet more extra time to extra curricular activities. Morale is not just low, it's below zero.

    I know from colleagues in other workplaces that we are not unusual. Most of the local second level schools have given up all the extra curricular stuff, and parents have to pay now for sports coaches and musical directors.

    So much for increased productivity... But hard to blame teachers who have had all that voluntary work thrown back in their face.


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    #36
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    katydid wrote: »
    where we are forced to meet en masse from half four to half five, people make a point of walking out on the dot of half three, even if the principal is in mid sentence.


    Is it correct that if school ends at 3.50 then the meeting is deemed to start at 3.50..our principal was saying meetings were 4.00- 6.00...we were saying 3.50-5.50..I know its only a small thing but when your tired anyway it can be the straw that broke the camels back....


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    #37
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    solerina wrote: »
    Is it correct that if school ends at 3.50 then the meeting is deemed to start at 3.50..our principal was saying meetings were 4.00- 6.00...we were saying 3.50-5.50..I know its only a small thing but when your tired anyway it can be the straw that broke the camels back....

    Outside school hours. So theoretically before school starts, or after the last class. Our last class ends at 4.30, so that's why we have to wait until then.
    If your last class finishes at 3.50, then 3.50 it should be...

    As you said, it's only a small thing but it's also a matter of principle. Why wait ten minutes? You don't have ten minute breaks between classes.


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    #38
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    solerina wrote: »
    Is it correct that if school ends at 3.50 then the meeting is deemed to start at 3.50..our principal was saying meetings were 4.00- 6.00...we were saying 3.50-5.50..I know its only a small thing but when your tired anyway it can be the straw that broke the camels back....

    This is an ongoing row in my school. Classes end at 3.20 with meetings from 3.30 - 4.30. Principal insists on the break and has point blank refused all discussion on this. Staff arguing for 3.20 start are dismissed as petty and unhelpful. But when nothing is appreciated and every minute of extra hours must be accounted for it's becoming a very touchy subject! Every 6 weeks we could be writing off another hour of detention instead of being given nonsense busy work to fill time.


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    #39
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Ingrid Embarrassed Stimulation wrote: »
    This is an ongoing row in my school. Classes end at 3.20 with meetings from 3.30 - 4.30. Principal insists on the break and has point blank refused all discussion on this. Staff arguing for 3.20 start are dismissed as petty and unhelpful. But when nothing is appreciated and every minute of extra hours must be accounted for it's becoming a very touchy subject! Every 6 weeks we could be writing off another hour of detention instead of being given nonsense busy work to fill time.

    Two can play at that game. Every extra piece of voluntary work should be given up, including acting as class tutor.


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    #40
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    By the letter of the law (circular), three parent teacher meetings a year should have the school finishing 15 minutes early, and then the time of 4.15 is specified as a start time. We finish at half three normally, which means we let students go at 3.15 these days and sit twiddling our thumbs for a full hour. I hate it.

    Croke Park meetings however should start straight away.

    Our class tutor duties are counted as class contact hours/part of our 22. Is that different elsewhere Katy?


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    #41
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭solerina


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    By the letter of the law (circular), three parent teacher meetings a year should have the school finishing 15 minutes early, and then the time of 4.15 is specified as a start time. We finish at half three normally, which means we let students go at 3.15 these days and sit twiddling our thumbs for a full hour. I hate it.

    Croke Park meetings however should start straight away.

    Our class tutor duties are counted as class contact hours/part of our 22. Is that different elsewhere Katy?


    This is our argument...does anyone know of the relevant circular where we can find this piece of information...would help Arlessienne too !!!


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    #42
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Moody_mona wrote: »
    Croke Park meetings however should start straight away.

    Our class tutor duties are counted as class contact hours/part of our 22. Is that different elsewhere Katy?

    There is no reason whatsoever why the CP hour shouldn't start immediately if it's the end of the school day. Are there any other classes going on for that hour? If not, what justification have management given?

    In our school, one hour is allowed from the 22 for class tutor duties; but we all know it involves far more than that. I refuse to be class tutor, and take the extra hour class contact instead. When I say, I "refuse", it's not as negative as that; I wasn't tutor when I was on job share a few years ago, and when I came back I was asked if I wanted to be one. I said no thanks, and have made it clear every year I don't want to be one. There's no obligation on anyone. Ok, you have to do an extra hour's teaching, but it sure would make life awkward for management if there was no one to do all that paperwork...

    If they insist on being awkward...


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