College Renting; List of Damage/Repair Costs

MauraTheThird

Hi, myself and three other girls live in a house that we rent which is managed by an estate agents in Cork. This morning, we got a letter in the post detailing a list of potential costs for cleaning/damages/repairs.

We are very clean/tidy girls (and I mean that seriously) and have kept the house very well. Obviously there has been general wear and tear from the four of us living here but we've not broken anything or damaged the house in any way.

We are just wondering if these lists are normal/enforceable because we don't want to leave and get a huge bill for something we shouldn't be getting billed for.

Things on this list were never included in the house first day eg. an ironing board so we are wondering whether we will be charged for something that was never here.

Thanks for any help

athtrasna

Did you get an inventory when you moved in? It's going to be difficult for you to prove you never had an ironing board if you didn't get a list of contents at the start of your tenancy.

Mrs OBumble

Like it says one the first page, just hand the property back in good condition.

Seriously, the amount of wear and tear in less than one year should be minimal.

MauraTheThird

athtrasna wrote: »

Did you get an inventory when you moved in? It's going to be difficult for you to prove you never had an ironing board if you didn't get a list of contents at the start of your tenancy.

My lease is at home (not in college accom) so I'll check it when I go back. I will ring them and judge what the likelihood of us getting charged for anything is because we have had a good relationship all year.

Clearlier

MauraTheThird wrote: »

Hi, myself and three other girls live in a house that we rent which is managed by an estate agents in Cork. This morning, we got a letter in the post detailing a list of potential costs for cleaning/damages/repairs.

We are very clean/tidy girls (and I mean that seriously) and have kept the house very well. Obviously there has been general wear and tear from the four of us living here but we've not broken anything or damaged the house in any way.

We are just wondering if these lists are normal/enforceable because we don't want to leave and get a huge bill for something we shouldn't be getting billed for.

Things on this list were never included in the house first day eg. an ironing board so we are wondering whether we will be charged for something that was never here.

Thanks for any help

It looks like a standard list that the estate agent has. I'm sure that it hasn't been adapted to your particular house. Take photographs of everything when you leave and if there is a dispute you can try and negotiate. If you don't get satisfaction that way you can raise a dispute with the PRTB.

the groutch

If they try charge you for any of these at the end, ask them for a copy of any invoice from whatever cleaner they contract to do the job, or in the case of broken items a copy of the receipts for the items.

db

From the first list, if you are reasonably tidy none of it will apply to you. Items on the second list will only apply if they were in the house and on an inventory and were damaged by you. I would see these lists as very useful as you can make sure that everything is at the standard expected before any inspection. This is just my opinion, others may differ.

MauraTheThird

Does it have to be a cleaner that they contract to clean the house? We also have a garden out the back that is covered in leaves because of a neighbour's tree. Should we be clearing these as well?

We are new to renting (we lived in student accomodation prior to this so just want to be confident with everything). We just want to make sure we have everything sorted so we won't get any surprises.

I'm sure we won't have a problem because we didn't have any issues all year with them (they've said they wished we were staying on) so I'm sure we are worried about nothing.

beauf

The Garden isn't your problem unless you agreed to look after it. I think the leaves are not an not an issue. Clean the house as if your mum was coming to stay. That's all. Do things like the cooker and fridge. That's all really.

Take photos and make note where the inventory doesn't match the house. It's probably a generic list which is a bit lazy on the agents part.

Casati

Maybe dont pay the last months rent and leave them the deposit - thats what most tenants do

beauf

No they don't.

MauraTheThird

Casati wrote: »

Maybe dont pay the last months rent and leave them the deposit - thats what most tenants do

Not that we would, but the estate agent takes the 9 months rent over 8 months so 9x€400 works out as 8x€450. They obviously have had people do it before :rolleyes:

Rabo Karabekian

beauf wrote: »

No they don't.

No, you're right, they don't. You give your deposit over to the landlord/estate agent (so they can bank it while you stay in their property) and then you can expect to wait a month or two after you have left before you get it back. Perfect system.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

No, you're right, they don't. You give your deposit over to the landlord/estate agent (so they can bank it while you stay in their property) and then you can expect to wait a month or two after you have left before you get it back. Perfect system.

That's what happens when you rent. In other countries you could pay up to 3 months' deposit. If you don't like it, save up and buy.

tuisginideach

Casati wrote: »

Maybe dont pay the last months rent and leave them the deposit - thats what most tenants do

That's the sort of nasty attitude that causes landlords to avoid/penalise certain tenants.

tuisginideach

MauraTheThird wrote: »

Not that we would, but the estate agent takes the 9 months rent over 8 months so 9x€400 works out as 8x€450. They obviously have had people do it before :rolleyes:

The landlord is facilitating you by giving you a nine month lease. Decent landlord - many students have to take a year's lease.

blackbird 49

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

That's what happens when you rent. In other countries you could pay up to 3 months' deposit. If you don't like it, save up and buy.

She only asking for people opinions, how many college students do you know who can save up and buy, there are working people out there who can even save up and buy

myshirt

I'll give you my experience, and pepper it with saying 'take your own advice, potentially go to citizens information as a first port of call'.


In any event, my experience...

Refer to the PRTB, overhold the property, and let it to PRTB to make a determination. You have absolutely zero to lose to that point, and all to gain. All perfectly legal, and it hits the landlord for time and cost, it doesn't hit you.

What this means is you stay in the property, you pay no rent, and you wait for your PRTB appointment. Do put away the rent into a form of escrow though. Review absolutely everything you can online in terms of landlord compliance and bring this to your appointment. You need no more than a layman understanding, being a young girl.

Let me tell you, I have never, ever lost a PRTB representing tenants, even where they behaved borderline on appallingly, and I have lost every (bar one) PRTB hearing representing landlords or having another solicitor represent the landlord I was acting for. One particular case still gives me nightmares as we had a slam dunk case, even got advice from counsel that the law couldn't have been more on our side, but he was roaring laughing saying to us to let him know how we got on. He was a college friend, otherwise it would have been totally unprofessional. We lost. And it cost... There is very, very strong precedent in favour of tenants, and let me tell you, absolutely stick it to landlords like this, fully press everything that is available to you legally here, hit them right where it hurts because I can see exactly what they are at, and it's not on. I suppose the boards equivalent of this type of person would be described as 'rules lawyers', it's totally disingenuous.

Hopefully you will come out with a tidy sum in your pocket, and that'll soften their cough.

If I had the time I'd be going back to fixing a few wagons amongst the landlord community.

MauraTheThird

This has all gone a bit off topic.

I never said I wouldn't pay rent, I don't think that's very fair and was just saying at any rate, we had it paid so we wouldn't be going down that avenue in any way.

None of us pay are not paying the rent, the lease is for 9 months which is the norm in Cork for students. We have all paid our rent, the electricity, oil, water charges, everything and anything that we had to pay.

All I wanted to know was the list of charges for cleaning/damages excessive and enforceable? We definitely didn't get an inventory (our mistake) but we have photos of the house at the beginning and will take photos we move out. It does say if the house is reasonable that they won't kick in, but we are just anxious that if we got this list at all, we should probably expect some charge.

Someone mentioned asking for the receipts for cleaning services to be produced if we do get hit with charges. Is there anything along these lines we should ask for when moving out? We have been asked to show that we have ended the electrical/water charges contracts with them being paid, on moving out.

CatFromHue

If you actually are clean and tidy you should be ok.

The only people I know who ended up having an EA/LL arrange a cleaner for their place after they left did actually leave a mess/damage.

Send the EA/LL an email or ring them on Tuesday morning to say there's items on the list that never came with the apartment. I wouldn't leave it until you are actually leaving to mention that. When you're on to them ask them what they consider to be clean as well.

It's more than likely a generic form sent out to remind tenants to clean the place before they leave.

tuisginideach

MauraTheThird wrote: »

This has all gone a bit off topic.

I never said I wouldn't pay rent, I don't think that's very fair and was just saying at any rate, we had it paid so we wouldn't be going down that avenue in any way.

You are absolutely right - it has gone off topic and people are using it to air their massive chips on shoulders re landlords. You say you kept house clean, paid rent etc - I doubt you have anything to worry about - you say you would have been welcome to stay on - I would imagine that list is a generic list and that the agent just sends it automatically. If you have photos showing the house is in the same condition on your departure as on your arrival I'm sure no landlord is going to worry about an X missing. Good luck and well done for being a conscientious tenant.

Rabo Karabekian

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

That's what happens when you rent. In other countries you could pay up to 3 months' deposit. If you don't like it, save up and buy.

It's not necessarily either/or. A much better solution would be to have an independent body hold your deposit for you.

MauraTheThird wrote: »

This has all gone a bit off topic.

You're right, apologies. We had a similar thing happen previously. We were given a list of items at the beginning of our tenancy (not sure if that was the case with you) and there were some mistakes on it, so we notified the EA of this. To be honest, we didn't hear much from the EA throughout the course of our tenancy, so we had to just assume everything was in order. I would query the items on the list that weren't in the house in case the landlord isn't as decent as yourselves.

To be fair, if you're good tenants (which you seem to be) I doubt you'll have anything to worry about. I think most landlords/EAs include these clauses to cover themselves in the event of a disaster tenant.

Arbiter of Good Taste

blackbird 49 wrote: »

She only asking for people opinions, how many college students do you know who can save up and buy, there are working people out there who can even save up and buy

Did you bother even reading my post? I was responding to the poster that was suggesting that the deposit was some sort of scam, not to the OP.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

It's not necessarily either/or. A much better solution would be to have an independent body hold your deposit for you.

I've rented in countries where that is the norm. There will still be a delay in getting back your deposit. That's life.

The_Conductor

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I've rented in countries where that is the norm. There will still be a delay in getting back your deposit. That's life.

Ditto.
Often the agency will also conduct an inspection and an inventory on behalf of the landlord and tenant at the beginning and end of the tenancy.
Scotland has a slightly less obtrusive version- where its simply a holding agency for the deposit. Personally- I'd rather an agency, viewed by all as independent- who would in a non-biased and fully clear process- manage any deductions. This would include both parties signing off on the property at the commencement- along with photographs of everything- which would be available to both parties at any time.

The current adversarial approach by a significant cohort of both tenants and landlords serves no-one aside from those who are willing to run roughshod over the act- in the knowledge they will not be pulled up on their actions.

As part of all of this- reasonable deposits should be taken from tenants- and I would argue that landlords should be allowed structure deposits on a risk basis- aka a single parent with 2 kids living with him/her- gets a 1 month deposit, students- 3 or 4 months etc. A register of landlords and tenants- and their previous history in the industry should be kept and made available to prospective tenants and landlords- so everyone goes in with open eyes as to what their landlord or tenant has historically done. If someone skips off without paying their last month (or multiple month's rent)- or overstays- it should be recorded. If a landlord inappropriately garnishes a tenant's deposit- it should be recorded. Any inappropriate behaviour on the part of a landlord should be recorded.

And........ where antisocial behaviour and/or non-payment of rent occurs- the tenant should be summarily removed from the property- get rid of this crap where it can take over a year to get a property back.

The current system sucks to high heaven. It doesn't work. Period.

foggy_lad

MauraTheThird wrote: »

This has all gone a bit off topic.

I never said I wouldn't pay rent, I don't think that's very fair and was just saying at any rate, we had it paid so we wouldn't be going down that avenue in any way.

None of us pay are not paying the rent, the lease is for 9 months which is the norm in Cork for students. We have all paid our rent, the electricity, oil, water charges, everything and anything that we had to pay.

All I wanted to know was the list of charges for cleaning/damages excessive and enforceable? We definitely didn't get an inventory (our mistake) but we have photos of the house at the beginning and will take photos we move out. It does say if the house is reasonable that they won't kick in, but we are just anxious that if we got this list at all, we should probably expect some charge.

Someone mentioned asking for the receipts for cleaning services to be produced if we do get hit with charges. Is there anything along these lines we should ask for when moving out? We have been asked to show that we have ended the electrical/water charges contracts with them being paid, on moving out.

All you need to worry about is that the place is clean when you leave and that you can prove this with photographic evidence.

When cleaning start with the ceilings and go through every room with a sweeping brush covered with a duster sweeping down cobwebs and dust from ceilings, corners, walls and around lights and light shades and fittings. Remove glass shades from lights if possible and wash them.

Then in every room wipe around all the electrical sockets and switches, then wash and clean along the skirting boards in every room making sure to pay particular attention to behind furniture and sofas.

If you come across any nasty surprises during a deep clean like burn marks under furniture or filthy dirty walls that will require cleaning then take pictures and then try to clean then take more pictures after cleaning.

Next then will be the windows both inside and out and then you can start on the floors and toilets, use a good limescale remover on tiles around the bath or in the shower to remove that dull limescale scum that builds up over time.

After all that you should be fine!

CatFromHue

That's quite comprehensive Foggy, another way to think about is what was the place like when you moved in?

Lingua Franca

Further to foggy_lad's post, if your oven is a bit grim then get one of those chemicals-in-a-bag cleaning kits and follow the instructions carefully. Those are best left to work overnight. It will cost you about a fiver as opposed to the 30 the agency will charge to get a cleaner in to do it.

Rabo Karabekian

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Did you bother even reading my post? I was responding to the poster that was suggesting that the deposit was some sort of scam, not to the OP.

If that's directed at me, I wasn't suggesting that it's some sort of scam but a not-particularly-effective system that can be abused (by landlords and, indeed, tenants). No chip on my shoulder: Bar one experience (and it was an EA, not a landlord) all my landlord/landladies have been wonderful people to deal with.

Lemming

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Further to foggy_lad's post, if your oven is a bit grim then get one of those chemicals-in-a-bag cleaning kits and follow the instructions carefully. Those are best left to work overnight. It will cost you about a fiver as opposed to the 30 the agency will charge to get a cleaner in to do it.

'Oven Pride' does the job rather nicely; best left overnight followed by a soak with warm soapy water. Racks & trays placed in rather large sealable bag with approx. 2/3 of the liquid solution, other 1/3 can then be applied over the internal surfaces of the oven (obviously NOT on the element ... ). Beats the hell out of giving it serious elbow grease!

tuisginideach

Lemming - do you use OverPride on roasting trays/ grill pan etc - I'd love to but fear I might damage them (sadly I'm not one for having shiny silver ones)?

the_syco

MauraTheThird wrote: »

Things on this list were never included in the house first day eg. an ironing board so we are wondering whether we will be charged for something that was never here.

If you have not received the list with your lease, get onto the Estate Agent who sent you the list, and let them know that you never received the list upon moving in.

Go through the list, noting the quality of each item. Note which items are missing.

Also tell them what items are missing, and the general state of the other items.

I'm guessing the list is a "standard items" list that they have probably sent to all properties that they own.

=-=

I think the repainting of the rooms refers to smoke damage. Although the places I've lived in have mainly been non-smoking properties, the one or two that allowed smoking would have yellow ceilings in the sitting room.

IMO, one property has gotten destroyed, and this is damage control.

Lemming

tuisginideach wrote: »

Lemming - do you use OverPride on roasting trays/ grill pan etc - I'd love to but fear I might damage them (sadly I'm not one for having shiny silver ones)?

Depends, but yes I have. It doesn't lift the surfacing off; just whatever grease/oil/crap is on there. Making ones oven trays shiny is down to you scrubbing too hard with a harsh surface.

Not wanting to state the obvious, but I will so nobody can accuse me of destroying their cooking utensils; Oven Pride is expensive enough stuff (£4/€5) a pop to use every other day so it's not a general day to day cleaning solution and as a result not best applied on your day to day cooking pots & pans; you should be keeping those clean anyway to avoid all manner of food poisoning.

Clearlier

Lemming wrote: »

Depends, but yes I have. It doesn't lift the surfacing off; just whatever grease/oil/crap is on there. Making ones oven trays shiny is down to you scrubbing too hard with a harsh surface.

Not wanting to state the obvious, but I will so nobody can accuse me of destroying their cooking utensils; Oven Pride is expensive enough stuff (£4/€5) a pop to use every other day so it's not a general day to day cleaning solution and as a result not best applied on your day to day cooking pots & pans; you should be keeping those clean anyway to avoid all manner of food poisoning.

The oven cleaners do a pretty good job but check the details of whatever product you use before you stick your cooking utensils in. I made the mistake of sticking a tray that had some kind of finish on it in. It made a complete mess of it and had to be chucked. OTOH it did a fantastic job on the stainless steel shelves. Also IME there is usually still some requirement for a bit of elbow grease to get an awkward patch or two.

Michael D Not Higgins

€10 to clean a drain? All they'll do is pull any hair out and stick some drain cleaner down. If any of these charges are applied, I'd like to see a full invoice from a professional cleaners, painters, etc. otherwise it's unenforceable.

Missing cutlery, €10, is that per spoon or if the entire drawer is empty? They'd want to be Newbridge silverware for a per item price.

Mrs OBumble

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

€10 to clean a drain? All they'll do is pull any hair out and stick some drain cleaner down.

E10 is cheap, and assumes that other things need to be done at the same time. Drain cleaner isn't free. The time taken to buy it, transport it to the house and apply isn't long - but isn't trivial either. Most maintenance people would charge a minimum call-out of at least E20 for a job like that.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

E10 is cheap, and assumes that other things need to be done at the same time. Drain cleaner isn't free. The time taken to buy it, transport it to the house and apply isn't long - but isn't trivial either. Most maintenance people would charge a minimum call-out of at least E20 for a job like that.

No, what it looks like is a shakedown. I've seen a professional company that do a clean for a two bed flat for €190. Adding up the list for 'full clean' of each room adds to €370.

Edit:
4 bed here: €460 at least,
professional: €250

beauf

Casati wrote: »

Maybe dont pay the last months rent and leave them the deposit - thats what most tenants do

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

No, you're right, they don't. You give your deposit over to the landlord/estate agent (so they can bank it while you stay in their property) and then you can expect to wait a month or two after you have left before you get it back. Perfect system.

Everyone knows its not perfect.

But you're advising people to break their lease. Putting the tenant in the wrong, not the LL, if it subsequently goes to the PRTB. if the LL chases the tenant for damages etc.

A deposit cannot be used in lieu of rent and you are liable for paying the rent up to the end unless otherwise agreed

You can hardly take the moral high ground about LL not following the rules if you are advising tenants not to follow rules pre-emptively. You leave the LL with no deposit to cover damage. So in effect leaving the LL to cover the cost of any damage. Which he can chase you for in the PRTB.

beauf

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

€10 to clean a drain? All they'll do is pull any hair out and stick some drain cleaner down. If any of these charges are applied, I'd like to see a full invoice from a professional cleaners, painters, etc. otherwise it's unenforceable....

You'd prefer these charges to be contracted out to a third party, and pay the much increase cost that causes. Its likely to be charged per the hour if contracted out done.

The_Conductor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

E10 is cheap, and assumes that other things need to be done at the same time. Drain cleaner isn't free. The time taken to buy it, transport it to the house and apply isn't long - but isn't trivial either. Most maintenance people would charge a minimum call-out of at least E20 for a job like that.

I cleaned a drain last weekend. I used more than 10 Euro of chemicals in the process. 10 Euro for cleaning a drain *is* cheap.

Michael D Not Higgins

The_Conductor wrote: »

I cleaned a drain last weekend. I used more than 10 Euro of chemicals in the process. 10 Euro for cleaning a drain *is* cheap.

Perhaps a badly blocked drain would require this but my point is in the ability to pull some hair out, squirt some bleach in and charge €10. Or worse, don't do it and charge.

The PRTB only allow invoiced cleaning to be charged not the landlord's time, and as I posted above you can get the whole place cleaned by a professional outfit for cheaper than the listed rates.

Mrs OBumble

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Perhaps a badly blocked drain would require this but my point is in the ability to pull some hair out, squirt some bleach in and charge €10. Or worse, don't do it and charge.

Spoken by someone who's never cleared a blocked drain! Seriously, I doubt that a professional cleaner would even clear blocked drains. They clean sinks - including removing surface gunk. But unblocking drains they'd leave that to the maintenance contractor, who'd come carrying plunger, DrainBoss and possibly rods.

The OP is in this case is dealing with an agency that is clearly used to renting to students. It is highly unlikely that the LL will come around and do maintenance him/herself. The work will be contracted out, the agency will have receipts for it.

But really all of this is moot, all the OP has to do is hand the property back in the same state they got it.

beauf

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

...But really all of this is moot, all the OP has to do is hand the property back in the same state they got it.

This. I doubt they'll have any problems.

Rabo Karabekian

beauf wrote: »

Everyone knows its not perfect.

But you're advising people to break their lease. Putting the tenant in the wrong, not the LL, if it subsequently goes to the PRTB. if the LL chases the tenant for damages etc.



You can hardly take the moral high ground about LL not following the rules if you are advising tenants not to follow rules pre-emptively. You leave the LL with no deposit to cover damage. So in effect leaving the LL to cover the cost of any damage. Which he can chase you for in the PRTB.

I presume you're not referring to me advocating breaking your lease. I have never done this, and never would, it's just frustrating waiting for your deposit to come back but yes, it's not a perfect system. Even if the constructive poster(s) who suggested alternatives had their system put in place, I can't see the delay ever stopping (in fact, it would probably increase if an independent body were involved).

There is a practice in a friend's house where they just don't pay the last month's rent, primarily because the EA made a huge fuss about giving back a deposit when someone left a few years back (and the fuss was just laziness, he never even bothered checking the room or house). Again, I would say that in my experience (and amongst others I know) the problems with renting tends to come from EAs managing properties rather than landlord/ladies.

Lingua Franca

Lemming wrote: »

'Oven Pride' does the job rather nicely; best left overnight followed by a soak with warm soapy water. Racks & trays placed in rather large sealable bag with approx. 2/3 of the liquid solution, other 1/3 can then be applied over the internal surfaces of the oven (obviously NOT on the element ... ). Beats the hell out of giving it serious elbow grease!

I think that's the brand I have, I live abroad but brought some of those back with me last year and they are amazing.

A couple of years ago we bought a house and moved out of our rental house because we were being absolutely slammed for rent, the house had been finished as cheaply as possible and it was starting to show, and we were bored stiff in the area.

I cleaned and packed and cleaned and packed for a week, scrubbed dining room chair upholstery and let them dry in the dry in the sun, stuff like that and the landlord still kept 400 euro of our deposit for A. cleaning the oven B. removing water spots from the shower door (already there when we moved in) and C. cleaning two of the dining room chairs. We offered to go back up and clean it all ourselves but he wouldn't have it and although we knew we being conned we didn't have the time or will (and I don't have the competency in Dutch) to fight it.

A 5 euro Oven Pride bag and a 2.50 bottle of WD40 and some elbow grease on the shower would have left him with only the two dining room chairs, which he was lying about, to try to scab as much of our deposit as possible.

Don't give them the opportunity, OP.

MauraTheThird

Update; we all got our entire deposits back so happy days! Thanks for all the advice!