Re: Adolf Hitler

4512

Could Hitler's Nazi regime have lasted longer if it had made the Catholic church and the USSR an ally indtead of an enemy?

Cold War Kid

Was the catholic church an enemy? I've read of examples of either support or turning-a-blind-eye (as well as resistance of course) when it came to various arms of the Vatican.

irish bloke

Pillow thread coming up....

The Diabolical Monocle

4512 wrote: »

Could Hitler's Nazi regime have lasted longer if it had made the Catholic church and the USSR an ally indtead of an enemy?

Yes.
That said its a bit of an ask.
Some philosophical changes might be required.

Don't think he'd manage allies but maybe an accord to keep out of each others way.

Think of it this way - you'd get a lot more ass if you simply switched teams, dressed as a sailor and moved to tsan fran.

4512

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Was the catholic church an enemy? I've read of examples of either support or turning-a-blind-eye (as well as resistance of course) when it came to various arms of the Vatican.

Rome failed to recognise the authority of Hitler which kinda pissed him off and most Catholics were seen as a "hindrance" to the so called progressive nature of white protestants or atheists.

fleet_admiral

Its a pity he didnt destroy the Vatican

Cold War Kid

4512 wrote: »

Rome failed to recognise the authority of Hitler which kinda pissed him off and most Catholics were seen as a "hindrance" to the so called progressive nature of white protestants or atheists.

Oh right. Thought loads of the nazis (including Hitler) were catholics.

4512

Don't think he'd manage allies but maybe an accord to keep out of each others way.[/quote]

I meant if Hitler didnt invade Russia but kept trading with the soviets

Amirani

If the USSR was actually an ally, and that's a fairly ridiculous and hypothetical if, Germany would not have lost the war.

fleet_admiral

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Oh right. Thought loads of the nazis (including Hitler) were catholics.

Thats a terrible thing to say about nazis

EoghanIRL

Maybe but the pope would have been führious!

AndonHandon

If Hitler grew at a slower pace he could have added more strength before targeting further expansion.

MRnotlob606

fleet_admiral wrote: »

Its a pity he didnt destroy the Vatican

Why ? What would that merit ? Destroying the beautiful Sistine Chapel, St Peter's Basilica, Priceless works of art. Also, many brave members of the clergy like Hugh O' Flaherty,Maximilian Kolpe and even future pope John Paul IIsaved countless lives.

Destroying the Vatican is one of the most senseless almost anti-catholic comments I have seen here.

suicide_circus

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Maybe but the pope would have been führious!

Heilarious

Lingua Franca

He might have lasted a bit longer but I reckon Stalin would have steamrolled him eventually anyway, ally or no.

gctest50

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Why ? What would that merit ? Destroying the beautiful Sistine Chapel, St Peter's Basilica, Priceless works of art. Also, many brave members of the clergy like Hugh O' Flaherty,Maximilian Kolpe and even future pope John Paul IIsaved countless lives.

Destroying the Vatican is one of the most senseless almost anti-catholic comments I have seen here.

he probably would/should have executed them all

except they had cake :

http://img.ie/image/C5r

GerB40

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Why ? What would that merit ? Destroying the beautiful Sistine Chapel, St Peter's Basilica, Priceless works of art. Also, many brave members of the clergy like Hugh O' Flaherty,Maximilian Kolpe and even future pope John Paul IIsaved countless lives.

Destroying the Vatican is one of the most senseless almost anti-catholic comments I have seen here.

I'm very anti catholic church (the church, obviously not catholics themselves) and I fully agree with you. Vatican City is one of the most astonishingly beautiful pieces of art and architecture on the planet. To lose it would be to lose one of mankind's greatest aesthetic wonders. The churches hierarchy is what I hate about the catholic church but their HQ is amazing..

InitiumNovum

4512 wrote: »

Could Hitler's Nazi regime have lasted longer if it had made the Catholic church and the USSR an ally indtead of an enemy?

I don't see what the RCC has to do with anything. But Nazi Germany was already a de-facto ally of the USSR at the beginning of WW2, e.g. the Non-Aggression Pact, and they had carved up Eastern Europe between themselves. If Nazi Germany had not invaded the USSR, if they had not entered into an alliance with Italy and Japan, and if they had not declared war on the US, there is a good chance that they would still be around to this day.

dxhound2005

Diego Simeone wrote: »

If the USSR was actually an ally, and that's a fairly ridiculous and hypothetical if, Germany would not have lost the war.

They were both parties to the non agression treaty which lasted for nearly 2 years from August 1939. So the Soviets took no part in fighting the Nazis until Germany broke the treaty. If Germany had stayed out of the Soviet Union who knows what could have happened.

Dyr

Hitlers strange obsession with turning russia into germanys back garden screwed him from the start

Maybe he just had plans to lay down decking from poland to the urals I dunno, the germans sure didnt need more lebensraum after they'd taken over the whole of western europe

After he'd kicked the hoop outta russia in autumn 41 he might have had a chance if they'd settled in to defend what they had and left it at that

Dyr

And staying pals with japan after they declared war on america probably was'nt a great idea either

dxhound2005

Bambi wrote: »

And staying pals with japan after they declared war on america probably was'nt a great idea either

Russia is still at war with Japan. They never agreed a treaty after 1945, something to do with disputed islands.

FloatingVoter

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Russia is still at war with Japan. They never agreed a treaty after 1945, something to do with disputed islands.

If it's about the 6 counties, they're welcome to them.

It's odd that the Catholic Church were against Hitler, but loved Mussolini. Isn't he the main reason that Vatican City is, in fact, it's own country?

buried

The Vatican helped hundreds, possibly thousands of Nazi fascists escape Europe at the end of the war. Some even went through 'denazification' through baptizm for safe passage out to South America and beyond. Look up the history of Bishop Alois Hudal and Monsignor Krunoslav Draganovic. Who knows who they let out. That mass murdering bastard Adolf Eichmann escaped Europe at the end of the war for instance.

whupdedo

Ah, were the nazis really that bad .........?

SaveOurLyric

AndonHandon wrote: »

If Hitler grew at a slower pace he could have added more strength before targeting further expansion.

He was not a big eater and was generally, though not exclusively, a vegetarian, and remained slim throughout his life. (Goring, by contrast was much more successful with expansion).

Capt'n Midnight

Diego Simeone wrote: »

If the USSR was actually an ally, and that's a fairly ridiculous and hypothetical if, Germany would not have lost the war.

Well, they were allies until December 1940.

Before then it was very confusing. The UK was helping Finland fight Russia. Then the Finn's allied with Germany. The Baltic states were taken over by Russia. You have to remember that Poland helped dismember Czechoslovakia. And then of course the Russians invaded Poland shortly after Germany did. And all this not too long after the Russians gave the Japanese a bloody nose in Mongolia.

Stalin was said to have said "It's a shame Hitler had to go and attack us. Together, we could really have done some things!".

j80ezgvc3p92xu

That's right, the Germans and the Soviet Union were actually allied until 1941 by virtue of the Ribentrop-Molotov pact. During that time, they managed to carve Europe up nicely between each other. Their armies co-operated in the Polish campaign in 1939 and they even held a joint military parade together in Brest Litovsk in October of that year.

The Vatican on the other hand never cooperated with the Nazis, despite what many undereducated dupes will have you believe. Pope Pius XI tore Hitler a new one in his encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge" (anyone with better German feel free to correct me). He hid thousands of Jews in the Vatican during the war and thousands of Catholic clergy met their end in concentration camps, choosing loyalty to their Church over the Nazis. One of the greatest Catholic saints of all time, Fr. Kolbe, was deliberately starved to death at Auschwitz.

I think Hitler's biggest mistake in the war was fighting too many people at the same time (lucky for us he did not seem to realize that). The German army hammered Britain but never finished the job. Then they helped Mussolini in Africa, again without dealing a knockout blow. Hitler later invaded Russia and declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour. It was only a matter of time really.

tritium

Hitler and Stalin weren't actually likely bedfellows. IF they could have stayed out of each others way Hitler could have finished of the rest of Europe but sooner or later one of them was going to turn on the other.

Cold War Kid

whupdedo wrote: »

Ah, were the nazis really that bad .........?

Dunno if that's a rhetorical question, but while, overall, yes... there were also individual nazis who did not agree with the horror of what happened ultimately, and signed up in agreement with economic policies and the aim of a happier, more well-off Germany. Don't think genocide was part of the deal at the start.

FloatingVoter

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Dunno if that's a rhetorical question, but while, overall, yes... there were also individual nazis who did not agree with the horror of what happened ultimately, and signed up in agreement with economic policies and the aim of a happier, more well-off Germany. Don't think genocide was part of the deal at the start.

Yes, the Nazis were evil. Read Mein Kampf - badly written immature rant that it is - he does make his outlook clear enough. Stalin was a murderous paranoid who Lenin misjudged, overpromoted and failed until too late to see coming.
Hitler was subtle in his machinations at the outset and a world dealing with the Great Depression were happy to see a strong man in Germany. They overlooked the domestic issues (antisemitism was a commonplace view at the time) in the hope that he'd mature with time. He did - into a demon. Churchill saw the rearmament but was accused of crying wolf(:cool:) and attention seeking.
Stalin played the dumb yokel around his sophisticate pals happy to let each and every one of the little leeches betray each other. He took on every menial job title going, combining them as he went....until eventually he had all the job titles. One or two little purges sealed the deal.

strobe

My primary knowledge of WWII is based on leaving cert history as seen through a foggy haze of drugs. So correct me if I go wrong. But wasn't the deal that when Germany rolled into Poland the Russians were supposed to roll in behind them and secure the eastern flank as they pushed towards France? But Stalin held back as he wanted to see what happened? So if Russia kept their end of the bargain the war would have rolled out without an eastern front? What's the RCC got to do with anything? Put a lot of tanks in the field did they? Big ass crosses on them?

FloatingVoter

Yup, the secret part of the Non Aggression Pact involved a carve-up of Poland. Stalin was playing for time - he knew Hitler was coming just not when. Given he had to wait until 1944 for his second front, he played it well.
Hitler screwed up when he declared war on the US needlessly and turned on the Russian Bear. A sane person would have sued for peace and settled for mainland western Europe.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

It's odd that the Catholic Church were against Hitler

biko

Without the Soviets we'd all be speaking Austrian now.

LadyAthame

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. Hitler broke the pact.Stalin and Hitler had been preparing their alliance since 1938. Stalin had the biggest land army at the time. He told hitler that Soviet troops would respond to any invasion of Poland. Hitler created the pact to do this. He also needed the economic relationship with the USSR for a time. Stalin always knew Hitler would invade the USSR eventually..he wanted time to re-arm. Stalin thought though Hitler would not invade for some time. But he misjudged the ratios of force. France collapsed long before Stalin thought it would. Stalin believed that Hitler would not conduct a two front war at the same time. That was the logical thing to do. But he misjudged that. Operation Barbarossa was Hitlers first great mistake. The Soviets were true to the contract until the last they would not have reacted until Hitler invaded the USSR. It's strange when you consider the Soviet soldiers actions after Hitlers suicide. There was a lot of sexual violence in Germany after the war. The majority was sytematic by the soviets and amounted to 2 million. They raped men , children and women even Jewish survivors. They spared no one. Russian civilians living there were not even spared. In contrast the US counted 11 thousand assaults by their soldiers. The soviet zone of occupation was notorious for it years after.

Hilters mistakes were starting a war with the USA and the USSR. But his mistakes were also dependant on the mistakes of his allies. Japan made a huge mistake in pearl harbour. Italy made a mistake in invading Greece. They failed and the Greeks overpowered them forcing Hitler to commit troops. It forced Hitler to delay his attack on Russia for five weeks which was disastrous as this brought them into winter. No one wins Russia in Winter. Hitler also messed up Dunkirk. Hitler rarely listened to his generals. This character flaw of not trusting the counsel of experts may have cost him the war. His generals actually told him repeatedly NOT to invade the USSR. The Germans were arrogant in their military technology they were stunned that the USSR had better tanks and better submachine guns than theirs. But delays were the worst mistake. Germany lost almost as many soldiers to winter weather as to the Soviet solders and the Germans did not know how to look after their weapons in the cold the Russians did. He also listened to goring who was a crazy drug addict.

edward2222

fleet_admiral wrote: »

Its a pity he didnt destroy the Vatican

Its not about he didn't, he just can't destroy vatican :cool:

LadyAthame

biko wrote: »

Without the Soviets we'd all be speaking Austrian now.

Actually more likely we'd would have been gassed. Weird Stalin saved his people from Nazi gassing ..killed millions of them himself. Unbelievable.

hairyslug

whupdedo wrote: »

Ah, were the nazis really that bad .........?

It was the older boys that made them do it

FTA69

Stalin also sought a pact with France and the UK against Hitler while they were following appeasement, they rejected it and this pretty much forced them into the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

GerB40

hairyslug wrote: »

It was the older boys that made them do it

I heard they used to smoke behind the bike sheds at break time too. The more I hear about them....

Buona Fortuna

InitiumNovum wrote: »

I don't see what the RCC has to do with anything. But Nazi Germany was already a de-facto ally of the USSR at the beginning of WW2, e.g. the Non-Aggression Pact, and they had carved up Eastern Europe between themselves. If Nazi Germany had not invaded the USSR, if they had not entered into an alliance with Italy and Japan, and if they had not declared war on the US, there is a good chance that they would still be around to this day.

There's been a couple of books written (and I'm struggling to remember their names) that suggested "What if it hadn't been Hitler" - someone with all the same views but not quite the full nut job - probably would still be around

Yuri Checkov

Hitler had no plans for Ireland.

I am sure Hitler would have won if he had not declared war on the USSR.

ZiabR

4512 wrote: »

Could Hitler's Nazi regime have lasted longer if it had made the Catholic church and the USSR an ally indtead of an enemy?

Yes, if Germany had not invaded the USSR when they did we would most likely be under German rule. If the 3.5 million + troops and the tanks etc that were sent to the USSR had of been focused on Europe, the Allies would have been overrun.

Invading the USSR when they did, was the turning point of the war and ultimately resulted in Germany losing the war.

Yuri Checkov

Yuri Checkov wrote: »

Hitler had no plans for Ireland.

I am sure Hitler would have won if he had not declared war on the USSR.

I always find that weird. Ireland is pretty strategically placed between Britain and America, so surely it would have been the perfect launching pad?

valoren

If Germany hadn't declared war on the Russians then they would have won?

The US and it's allies would have won in the end. Even if Japan hadn't instigated their participation.

They would have been drawn into the conflict at some point surely given the conflict of ideologies with fascism/communism and democracy etc etc. They wouldn't at that point have committed troops. Why would they?

The Manhattan Project would have been the ace in the hole.

Who would declare war on the one nation who actually developed the capacity to destroy any city seemingly at will? With ongoing newer, better and more destructive bombs?

Dropping a bomb on St Petersburg or Dresden would have hastened the German/Russian surrender no doubt because why spend billions of dollars and not utilise such a weapon?

Wurzelbert

another hitler thread...wow...just remember that, as napoleon once said, history is a set of lies agreed upon...

TwoShedsJackson

Bambi wrote: »

And staying pals with japan after they declared war on america probably was'nt a great idea either

Reminds me of one of my favourite pieces from The Onion:

The Onion wrote:

Japan Forms Alliance With White Supremacists in Well-Thought-Out Scheme

From the East Asian Correspondent, Sept 1, 1939. -- In a course of action praised by many as "far-sighted" and "tactically brilliant," the Japanese government has sworn its allegiance to the Axis powers led by white-supremacist Nazi Germany. In a formal statement, Japanese leaders declared, "We wish to be counted among the loyal allies of this back-stabbing, racist hate nation."

Following the announcement, Japanese General and military leader Hideki Tojo told reporters, "We are pleased to enter into an alliance with the paranoid, xenophobic government of Nazi Germany. We anticipate a deeply enriching exchange of our military aid with their deep-seated hated of our non-white heritage."

Tojo went on to say that the "unbeatable team" of Germans and Japanese will one dominate the industrialized world as "Aryans and those hated by Aryans, working together."

Likening their war instincts to those of "a very advanced clan of yellow apes," German Chancellor Adolf Hitler praised the government and military of Japan.

"I salute you, chinky-dinky rat men, who have been given life by the confused hand of some long-dead pagan deity," he said. "When Germany stands victorious on a conquered Earth, and Aryan supermen wipe out the undesirable mud races one by one, your like will surely survive to be among the last to be exterminated."

Hoop66

Buona Fortuna wrote: »

There's been a couple of books written (and I'm struggling to remember their names) that suggested "What if it hadn't been Hitler" - someone with all the same views but not quite the full nut job - probably would still be around

Stephen Fry's novel, Making History, deals with just this scenario. A PhD student develops a "window in time" type thing and drops contraceptive pills into the water in Brunau-Am-Inn in Austria, thus ensuring that Hitler is never born.

A more charismatic, less insane version comes to power, with sexy results.

GerB40

Hoop66 wrote: »

Stephen Fry's novel, Making History, deals with just this scenario. A PhD student develops a "window in time" type thing and drops contraceptive pills into the water in Brunau-Am-Inn in Austria, thus ensuring that Hitler is never born.

A more charismatic, less insane version comes to power, with sexy results.

Dominion by C.J. Sansom is another book that deals with the aftermath of Germany winning WW2. It's a fascinating look at all the "what ifs" and a very good read too. I'd highly recommend it to anyone whether you're interested in WW2 or not.