Social Housing in Dublin City Centre

qwerty1991

Hey all,

My friends and I got into a rather drunken argument last night in the pub after seeing an article about the housing crises in Dublin, and would love to see the general consensus.:D

Basically it came down to: Would the government not be better to rent social housing in the likes of Dublin city center to tax paying citizens desperate for accommodation, and relocate this social housing to nice suburbs in Meath, Louth, Kildare etc. where it is far cheaper. The residents can use public transport to go to the City center if they need anything from there.

Basically me and 2 other friends think it is awful that the rents are so extortionate in Dublin city center and argued:

People are having to pay ridiculous rents around Dublin due to the housing shortage. People are also having to live ages away as they cannot get city center accommodation and spend up to 2 hours getting in every morning and up to 2 hours getting home. On top of working full time, it is exhausting. Most jobs are in big cities, so people from the likes of Clare/ Roscommon, anywhere outside Dublin/Cork/Limerick etc are having to move hours away from home in order to get a job. So people arguing that they need a rent allowance/ social house in the city center to be near family or friends is wholly unfair as most people have to leave their friends or family to work. Why is there such an issue about people in Dublin City center in social housing/ getting rent allowance being relocated to the likes of Meath or Kildare. We keep seeing arguments about family and supports being in the city center but the majority of people paying private rents have to leave these too. It isn't moving hundreds of miles away!

The three on the other side argued that

If people grew up in an area, then they should not have to be forced to move to a different county just because they were going through rough times and had government assistance.

People move to Dublin and know of the housing shortage, it is unfair to move people from their homes just because these young professionals are moving up from all over the country and have more money to pay the rent.


I dunno, it seems like a silly argument but I would love some opinions while enjoying (not) my hangover!:pac::pac:

PS: I know people on rent allowance etc can also be working, I am talking about people not working living in social housing/ rent allowance!

Penny Tration

Yes, let's move people who need state funded accommodation to specific cheap areas, so workers can move to the capital. That won't create a ghetto at all

tomwaterford

Wasn't there a church sponsored scheme doing something similar with at times spectacularly bad results???
Rural resettlement or something like that



Bad idea op.....all its doing is move the problem around....you'll end up like a lot of London a city centre with very few old or poor people around with little in way of community

qwerty1991

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes, let's move people who need state funded accommodation to specific cheap areas, so workers can move to the capital. That won't create a ghetto at all

Parts of Dublin are Ghetto like as it is?

I am not talking about moving everyone into one estate in a small town but spreading the social housing out around bordering areas.

I personally think it is unfair that someone working has to spend hours getting to and from work as there is no city center accommodation.

edword

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Yes, let's move people who need state funded accommodation to specific cheap areas, so workers can move to the capital. That won't create a ghetto at all

we need to start looking at the borders, if we were to reclassify some of the commuter towns in kildare, meath etc. to dublin then we would bringing in the additional housing that dublin needs and that would go a long way to solving things. but the fat cats in charge dont want that to happen for personal reasons.

tomwaterford

qwerty1991 wrote: »

Parts of Dublin are Ghetto like as it is?

I am not talking about moving everyone into one estate in a small town but spreading the social housing out around bordering areas.

I personally think it is unfair that someone working has to spend hours getting to and from work as there is no city center accommodation.

So fcuk people out of there homes and communities just so you can get to work easier??

Penny Tration

qwerty1991 wrote: »

Parts of Dublin are Ghetto like as it is?

I am not talking about moving everyone into one estate in a small town but spreading the social housing out around bordering areas.

I personally think it is unfair that someone working has to spend hours getting to and from work as there is no city center accommodation.

If you really believe that parts of Dublin are ghetto like, you need to broaden your horizons.

Someone who spends hours getting to and from work is doing that by choice. I live in Dublin and spend 4 hours a day commuting still. And it's a choice.

LDN_Irish

qwerty1991 wrote: »

Parts of Dublin are Ghetto like as it is?

I am not talking about moving everyone into one estate in a small town but spreading the social housing out around bordering areas.

I personally think it is unfair that someone working has to spend hours getting to and from work as there is no city center accommodation.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banlieue

Riesen_Meal

Worked out well for Ballymun in the 60's OP didn't it?

One eyed Jack

qwerty1991 wrote: »

Basically it came down to: Would the government not be better to rent social housing in the likes of Dublin city center to tax paying citizens desperate for accommodation, and relocate this social housing to nice suburbs in Meath, Louth, Kildare etc. where it is far cheaper. The residents can use public transport to go to the City center if they need anything from there.

...


PS: I know people on rent allowance etc can also be working, I am talking about people not working living in social housing/ rent allowance!

They tried it already OP - "Regeneration" they called it.


It's been a disaster.

Aard

People were moved "out of the city" to places like Ballymun and Coolock. Not exactly success stories. The answer is to build more housing in the centre. Or improve transport infrastructure so that commuting times are reduced. Social housing and market rate housing can exist side by side.

DocQismyJesus

tomwaterford wrote: »

So fcuk people out of there homes and communities just so you can get to work easier??

Don't think OP is saying that- maybe questioning why generations of non working families continue to be given the most prime real estate in Ireland for free.

I'm 100 percent for social housing but the idea that anyone has a "right" to live in the city centre for generations while the tax payer picks up the tab is ludicrous.

IMO planning social housing needs to be done holistically with the needs of the whole community in mind ergo I can see the OPs point

qwerty1991

tomwaterford wrote: »

So fcuk people out of there homes and communities just so you can get to work easier??

No that is not what I mean. I mean from here on for example, if someone is making a fresh application for a house or whatever, it shouldn't be in the city center but in bordering areas.

If it comes across as me meaning kicking people out of their homes, I dont mean that so apologies. But there is no need to come across so defensive. I mean that perhaps any new social welfare/rent allowance accommodation that comes available in city centre should be given to people working and in desperate need to rent privately.

This would only work if people who needed social welfare/ rent allowance housing were given housing in bordering areas.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

Social housing and market rate housing can exist side by side.

If you had the choice would you have neighbors in social housing next door to you?

I doubt it.

tomwaterford

qwerty1991 wrote: »

No that is not what I mean. I mean from here on for example, if someone is making a fresh application for a house or whatever, it shouldn't be in the city center but in bordering areas.

If it comes across as me meaning kicking people out of their homes, I dont mean that so apologies. But there is no need to come across so defensive. I mean that perhaps any new social welfare/rent allowance accommodation that comes available in city centre should be given to people working and in desperate need to rent privately.

This would only work if people who needed social welfare/ rent allowance housing were given housing in bordering areas.

So give over social housing to those that can afford housing instead???

Aard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you had the choice would you have neighbors in social housing next door to you?

I doubt it.

I have social housing neighbours and I'm fine with it.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

I have social housing neighbours and I'm fine with it.

Despite the trouble and the impact on the value of your property and the inherent unfairness of someone getting a house similar to yours for almost nothing?

I don't believe you. I think you talk nice in public but in private the vast majority of owners or mortgage holders and yourself would not want social housing on their estate for very good reason.

tomwaterford

Aard wrote: »

I have social housing neighbours and I'm fine with it.

Plenty of good people and nice honest people have/come from social housing

To dismiss them for that is wrong

The Diabolical Monocle

tomwaterford wrote: »

So fcuk people out of there homes and communities just so you can get to work easier??

Yes. Damn straight.

Its not their home, its the states.

Wheres the cries of humanity for the poor working soul who has to travel from the suburbs every morning. I don't see any hearts bleeding for him/her.

The only real argument against the logic of an equal market for city center housing is ... 'oh but the community' .... aka 'but I like having great convenience at no expense'.

Just a little Samba

qwerty1991 wrote: »

Parts of Dublin are Ghetto like as it is?

I am not talking about moving everyone into one estate in a small town but spreading the social housing out around bordering areas.

I personally think it is unfair that someone working has to spend hours getting to and from work as there is no city center accommodation.

The parts of Dublin that are like ghettos now, Coolock, Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymum etc, were created by exactly the same process you want to repeat now.

People were moved out of the city centre into housing estates with no amenities of supports.

It's a stupid idea that we tried already and failed spectacularly.

anncoates

A lot of people in social housing do have jobs but shur chuck them out of their houses because you and your mates want to be in walking distance of temple bar.

The Diabolical Monocle

anncoates wrote: »

A lot of people in social housing do have jobs but shur chuck them out of their houses because you and your mates want to be in walking distance of temple bar.

as do the people in social housing.



eh, community something something.

qwerty1991

tomwaterford wrote: »

So give over social housing to those that can afford housing instead???

What I am trying to get across is as one person stated above, Dublin city center real estate is prime and people are desperately trying to find somewhere to live. I know no one that commutes 4 hours by choice bar one older man who has wife and kids and has chosen not to relocate them.

I dont understand how spreading social housing across such a broad area of bordering counties and towns would create ghettos, would it not do the opposite, if lets say 30% of housing in one estate was social and the other 70% is private?

I just personally dont understand, and my friends last night the same: If there is social housing available in suburbs, that is commutable to Dublin, then why are prime City centre locations being used as social housing when there is a private renting crisis? Why is it a persons right to have social housing in the city centre when there is probably better accommodation available an hour away.

I am not advocating kicking people out of there homes. I am also not advocating creating ghettos, I dont understand how that would happen unless you just shoved all social housing into one or 2 towns which isnt what Im saying.

KomradeBishop

If there is a shortage of housing and places to rent, what is the correct solution?
A: Kick the poor in social housing out to border counties, where there are more houses.
B: Mass-repossess indebted homeowners, creating as many new people looking to rent as there are potential buyers.
C: Exterminate all of the above.
Build more houses and places rent (pff..stupid idea, nevermind).

Aard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Despite the trouble and the impact on the value of your property and the inherent unfairness of someone getting a house similar to yours for almost nothing?

I don't believe you.

What trouble? I've been here over two years and haven't had any trouble, either at home or in the neighbourhood.

No impact on the value of my property -- I rent.

And we obviously have different notions of what's fair. I wouldn't want the life of somebody dependent on social housing -- it's not like they're living the life of Reilly.

anncoates

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

as do the people in social housing.



eh, community something something.

Then qualify for social housing and make sure and tell the local authority you won't consider anything outside Dublin 1 and 2 for lifestyle reasons.

Kermit.de.frog

anncoates wrote: »

A lot of people in social housing do have jobs but shur chuck them out of their houses because you and your mates want to be in walking distance of temple bar.

They also have the highest levels of idleness, criminality and thuggery but lets not let fact get in the way.

anncoates

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

but lets not let fact get in the way.

It never does, by the looks of it.

Just a little Samba

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you had the choice would you have neighbors in social housing next door to you?

I doubt it.

The neighbour blow me is a girl who came out of state care and 18 and into a flat by herself, the neighbour to my right factory worker and his wife and 4 year old who are in a let to buy scheme with the local authroity and the guy to my left bought his house outright form the developers, runs a multi-million euro business and I own my own place. We all get along really well, the rest of the estate is pretty similar, lovely place to live. The girl below me, who is 21 now and doing really well even looks after my apartment while I'm away every winter buy checking in now and then to make sure everything's ok and I do the same when she's away on holidays or whatever.

This place wouldn't be half as good of a community without the social housing in the estate.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

No impact on the value of my property -- I rent.

If you owned you would think differently.

tomwaterford

qwerty1991 wrote: »

What I am trying to get across is as one person stated above, Dublin city center real estate is prime and people are desperately trying to find somewhere to live. I know no one that commutes 4 hours by choice bar one older man who has wife and kids and has chosen not to relocate them.

I dont understand how spreading social housing across such a broad area of bordering counties and towns would create ghettos, would it not do the opposite, if lets say 30% of housing in one estate was social and the other 70% is private?

I just personally dont understand, and my friends last night the same: If there is social housing available in suburbs, that is commutable to Dublin, then why are prime City centre locations being used as social housing when there is a private renting crisis? Why is it a persons right to have social housing in the city centre when there is probably better accommodation available an hour away.

I am not advocating kicking people out of there homes. I am also not advocating creating ghettos, I dont understand how that would happen unless you just shoved all social housing into one or 2 towns which isnt what Im saying.

You are advocating kicking people out to convenience you (well reads like that anyway)
You are effectively saying get out and live an hour away so as you'll have a shorter commute to work???

Aard

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you owned you would think differently.

Not really. My life would have been the exact same living here whether I rented or owned.

pmasterson95

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you owned you would think differently.

I thought you learned yesterday not to try and assume/claim what others think....

Just a little Samba

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you owned you would think differently.

The only thing that affected the value of my property was the popping of the housing bubble.

I bought the flat when I was 20, which was before everything went mental price wise, and the flat is worth about the same as I paid for it now a little over a decade later. The girl under me moved in about 3 years ago and my property value has raised since. Hasn't been affected at all.

anncoates

qwerty1991 wrote: »

What I am trying to get across is as one person stated above, Dublin city center real estate is prime and people are desperately trying to find somewhere to live. I know no one that commutes 4 hours by choice bar one older man who has wife and kids and has chosen not to relocate them.

I dont understand how spreading social housing across such a broad area of bordering counties and towns would create ghettos, would it not do the opposite, if lets say 30% of housing in one estate was social and the other 70% is private?

I just personally dont understand, and my friends last night the same: If there is social housing available in suburbs, that is commutable to Dublin, then why are prime City centre locations being used as social housing when there is a private renting crisis? Why is it a persons right to have social housing in the city centre when there is probably better accommodation available an hour away.

I am not advocating kicking people out of there homes. I am also not advocating creating ghettos, I dont understand how that would happen unless you just shoved all social housing into one or 2 towns which isnt what Im saying.

But many social housing tenants have jobs so would that commute just be foisted on them instead?

People seem to focus on state subsidized housing for low incomes but never seem to mind the other raft of tax funded subsidies to themselves: interest reliefs, subsidized University education, grants etc.

The Diabolical Monocle

anncoates wrote: »

Then qualify for social housing and make sure and tell the local authority you won't consider anything outside Dublin 1 and 2 for lifestyle reasons.

You'd have to have some balls to demand free discounted housing but only if its in the city.



Suburbs ... but I'd have to commute.

sabat

Just a little Samba wrote: »

The parts of Dublin that are like ghettos now, Coolock, Tallaght, Finglas, Ballymum etc, were created by exactly the same process you want to repeat now.

People were moved out of the city centre into housing estates with no amenities of supports.

It's a stupid idea that we tried already and failed spectacularly.

But it worked very well in the 30s, 40s and 50s when people were moved to areas like Marino, Cabra and Crumlin because those people had some pride, self-respect and a work ethic. I grew up in a Dublin suburb about the same distance from the city as those areas you mentioned, with probably the same (probably a lot fewer actually) facilities yet almost everyone went on to 3rd level and didn't end up as criminals. The fact is that the "working" classes have become a bunch of aggressive, self-entitled, lazy pricks.

SpaceTime

The issue with City Centre housing here is that with notable exceptions like the Artisan Dwelings in Stoneybatter (the Coronation Street style yellow brick stuff) we've an awful track record of producing architecture that causes social problems.

If we are going to do city centre social housing it's going to have to be mixed with non social housing and it's going to have to be high quality and have on the ground management in the form of a caretaker or building superintended, proper secure access and probably even a manned reception desk.

We've tended to just build big things like Ballymun and let them rot. You have to actually lay the foundations for a city centre community not just build apartments.

El Weirdo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If you owned you would think differently.

I own but would have no problem with a social tenant living next door.

It's a lot easier to get something done on the off chance that a social tenant is being anti-social than if you had a scumbag that actually owned the house.

Kermit.de.frog

Aard wrote: »

Not really. My life would have been the exact same living here whether I rented or owned.

There is NO ONE who owns or is a mortgage holder that would have, out of choice, social housing next to them. No one. There is several reasons for this already outlined.

There is a couple of reasons developers did not adhere to the 20% social housing in every estate. Firstly it was stupid and secondly no one would buy such properties.

This mix of social classes does not work. Never has, never will.

anncoates

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

You'd have to have some balls to demand free discounted housing but only if its in the city.



Suburbs ... but I'd have to commute.

If those central places were private accommodation, they'd be market level rents which would probably be out of the reach of most of these virtuous, hard pressed working people.

So then the moaning would be about a 'fair market finding its level', that is, I want this place and I want it at the price I demand.

tomwaterford

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This mix of social classes does not work. Never has, never will.

So you just don't like poor people

El Weirdo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

There is NO ONE who owns or is a mortgage holder that would have, out of choice, social housing next to them. No one. There is several reasons for this already outlined.

Except for me.

anncoates

DocQismyJesus wrote: »

Don't think OP is saying that- maybe questioning why generations of non working families continue to be given the most prime real estate in Ireland for free.

They're not 'given' anything.

The housing is a local authority asset with most tenants paying rent, albeit at subsidized levels

pmasterson95

tomwaterford wrote: »

So you just don't like poor people

Thats the issue he had yesterday aswell. I'd have no problem "common/poor" people beside me.

macnug

Your forgetting one thing op, what if the counties you mentioned don't want more unemployed? They probably don't as they have more than Dublin as it is. What if the people who work and pay taxes in Kildare etc. Don't want to live beside Dublins unemployed. You cant expect surrounding counties to solve your problems for you.

Kermit.de.frog

A lot of people are also choosing to not mention the scumbag problem in Dublin City Center. A lot of this has to do with the ring of social housing just inside the canals. Dublin needs to follow London's example of gentrification - this means moving them out. London has been doing this for 20 years and it's been very successful in terms of making the city more attractive and actually getting yield from prime market locations.

pmasterson95

macnug wrote: »

Your forgetting one thing op, what if the counties you mentioned don't want more unemployed? They probably don't as they have more than Dublin as it is. What if the people who work and pay taxes in Kildare etc. Don't want to live beside Dublins unemployed. You cant expect surrounding counties to solve your problems for you.

yeah but if they are out of Dublin then its not Dublins problem. Let the recieving county deal with it.

KomradeBishop

sabat wrote: »

...
The fact is that the "working" classes have become a bunch of aggressive, self-entitled, lazy pricks.

What in the fúck? Jesus the welfare/poor-bashing snobs on Boards are getting all the less tactful and more galling lately.

I'd rather live beside one of these 'working' class people, even welfare-dependent ones - which there can be any number of perfectly good reasons for, given a high-unemployment economy like this - than someone with that kind of snobbish attitude.

Just a little Samba

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

There is NO ONE who owns or is a mortgage holder that would have, out of choice, social housing next to them. No one. There is several reasons for this already outlined.

I bought my flat in the knowledge that the flat below it and the house beside it were both owned by the local authority and used as social housing.

I had enough money to buy a flat in any estate in the town I lived in but I chose to buy it where I did.

So you're assertion is plainly false.

qwerty1991

anncoates wrote: »

But many social housing tenants have jobs so would that commute just be foisted on them instead?

People seem to focus on state subsidized housing for low incomes but never seem to mind the other raft of tax funded subsidies to themselves: interest reliefs, subsidized University education, grants etc.

No, I stated in the first post for people not working. Obviously I have no issue with people working and getting government assistance with housing. If it came across differently, apologies. And also, once again I am not advocating kicking people out of their houses either.

I am talking about people who are unemployed and who have been for the last 10 years with no intention of working ever. Why are these people entitled to prime city center social housing?

I still dont see how ghettos are created if you create 4 social houses in an estate of 20 in Leixlip for example? And instead allow private renters to rent the city centre apartments?

BTW i dont need a city centre apartment so it is not a personal thing for me, it just slightly annoys me that it is fine for someone to work fulltime and exhaust themselves with huge commutes due to unavailability of city centre accommodation and then there is a percentage of social housing dwellers who never worked and have no intention of working taking up prime city centre properties.