Teacher going on hunger strike

r93kaey5p2izun

bjork wrote: »

I thought that was a great system




http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95037541&postcount=38

That's really referring to coursework B and it is externally corrected.

jam17032010

bjork wrote: »

Did the world burn when you refused?

Did the principal offer you a few bob to tick the box? ;);)



Are you a multi millionaire now, loved in the community?

I know I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but this post shows you for the WUM you are. Someone comes up with a clear example of how teachers awarding marks can be corrupted and you come up with this post pulling the P. I thought for a while that you might have been someone genuinely interested in the topic, but no. Your mask is slipping bjork.

bjork

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

Report what? He did nothing technically wrong.

SEC still wanted me to let the student claim the credit even when I explained situation (student had attended less than 30% of classes so hadn't even done, let alone written up, the experiments) so I don't think they were much interested in the principal's lack of ethics anyway.

Now we have to notify principal in advance if student won't be submitting coursework. He then pulls that student out of class for blocks of time with sub teachers or even SNAs to get them through the write ups - a total misuse of resources wasted on those who don't deserve it - and more classroom time lost for those students. A total farce that is only set to get worse.

Putting pressure on a teacher to falsify results is doing nothing wrong?
Loosing you hours and pay, isolating you from the school community>> I thought once money started being lost you would have being hammering down your unions door? No?

But money importantly, suggesting falsifying results!
So it's the SEC that was putting pressure on you to falsify results? > This is explosive. Your testimonial will blow all SEC's credibility out of the water and stop any changes go through. Get the unions and Niamh Horan on the phone now, and by the morning they're be no need to worry about the new junior cert because the unions will have shred them to pieces. The public definitely win't support a body that is trying to falsify results.


Yes that is a waste of resources. That is nonsense and maybe your principal needs to re-evaluate what he is doing

bjork

jam17032010 wrote: »

I know I said I wouldn't respond to you anymore but this post shows you for the WUM you are. Someone comes up with a clear example of how teachers awarding marks can be corrupted and you come up with this post pulling the P. I thought for a while that you might have been someone genuinely interested in the topic, but no. Your mask is slipping bjork.

You mustn't have read to the end of the story


Over my dead body and that was the end of it.


Everybody went home tired but happy

Aineoil

bjork wrote: »

That's why we need to be less reliant on tests and use other methods of assessing. They might argue with an exam grade, but can they argue with proof. Anyhow, it shouldn't be the day of the exam they find out what level they are working with

They don't find out on the day of the exam that their child is struggling with

either literacy or numeracy. I have a drawer full of signed notes from parents who have declined learning support assistance.

Parents do argue with proof in the most bizarre ways. For example I have

been preparing for next term tonight. I have been inundated with requests by

a mother to give help to a child who's on the 75th percentile (in maths on a

standardised maths test).

I can't do that it's just wrong.

Guess who's going to be very unpopular tomorrow - me.

bjork

Aineoil wrote: »

They don't find out on the day of the exam that their child is struggling with

either literacy or numeracy. I have a drawer full of signed notes from parents who have declined learning support assistance.

Parents do argue with proof in the most bizarre ways. For example I have

been preparing for next term tonight. I have been inundated with requests by

a mother to give help to a child who's on the 75th percentile (in maths on a

standardised maths test).

I can't do that it's just wrong.

Guess who's going to be very unpopular tomorrow - me.

The mother wants you to help the child during the test?
:pac::pac:

Like you I wouldn't entertain that. But that's funny

By the same token, does that not mean that parents are pressuring teachers to help students with the state tests.

r93kaey5p2izun

Bjork, as you well know, if you live in the real world things are not so straightforward as that. I'm not going to go into details about how I may have dealt with that situation or what has gone on since as it would be identifiable.

I will say though that I find your passive aggressive posting style and dismissive comments disguised as throwaway flippancy quite tiresome. Your nitpicking posts and petty multiquote one liner replies won't help you learn more about why we have reached this level of discord in the JC reform. Your mind is made up and it appears you are only here for an argument.

bjork

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

Bjork, as you well know, if you live in the real world things are not so straightforward as that. I'm not going to go into details about how I may have dealt with that situation or what has gone on since as it would be identifiable.

I will say though that I find your passive aggressive posting style and dismissive comments disguised as throwaway flippancy quite tiresome. Your nitpicking posts and petty multiquote one liner replies won't help you learn more about why we have reached this level of discord in the JC reform. Your mind is made up and it appears you are only here for an argument.

Sorry, I thought a discussion forum was a place for discussion


Some from the SEC put presurre on you to change the system and you refuse to report them?!? Very professional, keep up the standards

man_no_plan

Unfortunately bjork you pick the parts of posts that you have a smart answer to and respond to them but ignore the parts that you cant argue with.

For example you never addressed my point about education reform or modern teaching but tried to pick holes in what I wrote elsewhere with cheap rhetoric and smiley faces 😊

You are drawing inferences where none exist and are showing more and more that you either don't understand the issues or that you do but you're trying to be playful.

I'm going to try to adapt to your style if I can, maybe you'll get the message. If you don't let me know so that I can give constructive feedback.

Standardised testing > league tables > competition between schools > payment by results > focus on outcomes only.

Standardised testing is a key part of jc reform.

You speak of evidence that cannot be refuted. The SEC are expert at applying marking schemes in a consistent way across the entire cohort. They will defend a grade in court if they need to. This is not the case in a local school. There is a lack of capacity in schools to effectively deliver this standard at present.

You scoff at my mention of there being no head of department roles on school as it is an inconvenience to your argument. It is a fact. Unfortunately you don't deal in fact but in supposition and hearsay. You asked who does this that and the other in schools, in some schools they are done by a senior teacher in their subject area, in some cases by a new teacher who was asked to help out by the principal and in some schools things are done on the fly as we try to cope with a litany of cuts.

If you had any knowledge of the education system or any business or system for that matter you would recognise that resources must be in place to support reform. Ignoring this doesn't make you right.

I would respectfully ask you to outline the school structure you think exists si that we can highlight the reality. Then you may be able to explain how you see the reform working.

Students aren't drones and don't behave in a uniform and predictable way, nor do teachers. You need to understand human interaction. Also the value of what happens in schools is often not what is written on the LC results. Unfortunately much of the interaction and the value of the other aspects of school life are being undermined by the bureaucracy and accountability agenda which erodes teacher time and indeed goodwill.

r93kaey5p2izun

bjork wrote: »

Sorry, I thought a discussion forum was a place for discussion

A discussion doesn't have to be conducted with a constant barrage of sarcastic or glib comments. That style really doesn't lend itself to sharing and considering opposing opinions and differing ideas. Like I said, it simply reads like a deliberate argument rather than an attempt at meaningful discussion. It's hard to keep up with your opinion through all the flippancy and derisive comments, so I have to wonder what you are trying to achieve.

Your latest edit confirms you're not here for real discussion just looking for an opening for your smart alec comments.

evolving_doors

bjork wrote: »

You mustn't have read to the end of the story


Over my dead body and that was the end of it.


Everybody went home tired but happy

And there-in lies the nub that you are missing Bjork.

The 'over my dead body' teacher (Rainbowtrout) was in a permanent position.
The other teacher (Arlessienne) was not, took a stand, and got punished as a result.

So... getting back to the point which you never (and will never acknowledge).

When individual school results are made public.
Progression/Pay is linked to 'performance' (that's student results to you and me).
There is a 'new' motivation on schools to get good better grades.
So either the students get good better marks or the teacher gets punished.

What would you do as a part-time/NQT teacher if your principal approaches you and asks you very subtly to reconsider a poor grade, or maybe question your teaching methods for a particular class that isn't doing well?

As we have seen with the UK system... exam re-sits occur or the test/presentation/portfolio requirement is made easier to get them past the line.

I know you like the drama so here's how it plays out in some of the UK schools that I'm familiar with (through talking to other teachers).

Principal: Could you have a look at those grades again Mr. Bjork or maybe rerun a more suitable test?
Mr. Bjork: Why is that Principal?
Principal: Well I just noticed that some of your students havn't been improving on their previous scores so that leeds me to believe that either you need a bit of help with your teaching or that the test wasn't suitable... oh by the way I meant to say it lst week, have I spoken to you yet about hours for next year, could you schedule an appt. with the secretary?
Mr. Bjork: Sure thing

So what do you do????

A. Redo the test/up the grades.
B. Ring the SEC and say what exactly?... that your principal is threatening you. Then they pop by to investigate and look for the continuous assessment grades, low and behold some of the dossers havn't bothered their behinds to improve their grades. The principal was right. Stop wasting our time.

So what do you think? Pay/security linked to results and all school results to be published.

Once there is the possibility of grades being left open to influence then that's the integrity of the system gone. Also that's the standard gone.

But surely teachers can trust their own professionalism you ask!
It's not our professionalism we need to worry about.

Ya sure bring in all the AFL/student centered learning/blue sky thinking that you want, but without a foolproof system (outside examination) then there is no integrity.

Aineoil

bjork wrote: »

The mother wants you to help the child during the test?
:pac::pac:

Like you I wouldn't entertain that. But that's funny

By the same token, does that not mean that parents are pressuring teachers to help students with the state tests.

No not help during a test. Help before the test.


"the state tests"


What state?

bjork

man_no_plan wrote: »

Unfortunately bjork you pick the parts of posts that you have a smart answer to and respond to them but ignore the parts that you cant argue with.

For example you never addressed my point about education reform or modern teaching but tried to pick holes in what I wrote elsewhere with cheap rhetoric and smiley faces 😊

You are drawing inferences where none exist and are showing more and more that you either don't understand the issues or that you do but you're trying to be playful.

I'm going to try to adapt to your style if I can, maybe you'll get the message. If you don't let me know so that I can give constructive feedback.

Standardised testing > league tables > competition between schools > payment by results > focus on outcomes only.

Standardised testing is a key part of jc reform.

You speak of evidence that cannot be refuted. The SEC are expert at applying marking schemes in a consistent way across the entire cohort. They will defend a grade in court if they need to. This is not the case in a local school. There is a lack of capacity in schools to effectively deliver this standard at present.

You scoff at my mention of there being no head of department roles on school as it is an inconvenience to your argument. It is a fact. Unfortunately you don't deal in fact but in supposition and hearsay. You asked who does this that and the other in schools, in some schools they are done by a senior teacher in their subject area, in some cases by a new teacher who was asked to help out by the principal and in some schools things are done on the fly as we try to cope with a litany of cuts.

If you had any knowledge of the education system or any business or system for that matter you would recognise that resources must be in place to support reform. Ignoring this doesn't make you right.

I would respectfully ask you to outline the school structure you think exists si that we can highlight the reality. Then you may be able to explain how you see the reform working.

Students aren't drones and don't behave in a uniform and predictable way, nor do teachers. You need to understand human interaction. Also the value of what happens in schools is often not what is written on the LC results. Unfortunately much of the interaction and the value of the other aspects of school life are being undermined by the bureaucracy and accountability agenda which erodes teacher time and indeed goodwill.

I have adressed everything I was asked. I have asked lotys iof questions that haven't been answered

Standardised testing > league tables > competition between schools > payment by results > focus on outcomes only.

^^ Payment by results. Is this proposed or is this you drawing inferences? > No, it's just making stuff up and adding it on

The SEC are expert at applying marking schemes in a consistent way across the entire cohort.

How can you say this? The poster before you has directly experienced the SEC putiting pressure on them to change results. Are you saying they are lying?

You scoff at my mention of there being no head of department roles on school as it is an inconvenience to your argument.

Not because it is inconvenient to my argument but because that;s how department are usually structured

you don't deal in fact but in supposition and hearsay.

Unlike you who is ranting about paying by results

If you had any knowledge of the education system or any business or system for that matter you would recognise that resources must be in place to support reform. Ignoring this doesn't make you right.

Sorry, but where have I said they don't?

I would respectfully ask you to outline the school structure you think exists si that we can highlight the reality. Then you may be able to explain how you see the reform working.

Students aren't drones and don't behave in a uniform and predictable way, nor do teachers. You need to understand human interaction. Also the value of what happens in schools is often not what is written on the LC results. Unfortu

This thread is about the new junior cert reforms. I have asked questions and outlined my position, if you can't engage with me from all I have already posted, good luck to you! Why should I outline what I think current school structure is. Why can't we talk about what it should be. Are you capable of doing that and justifying why? What is the purpose in that activity?


Your posted shows an astonishing lack of comprehension about the posts I made.

bjork

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

A discussion doesn't have to be conducted with a constant barrage of sarcastic or glib comments. That style really doesn't lend itself to sharing and considering opposing opinions and differing ideas. Like I said, it simply reads like a deliberate argument rather than an attempt at meaningful discussion. It's hard to keep up with your opinion through all the flippancy and derisive comments, so I have to wonder what you are trying to achieve.

Your latest edit confirms you're not here for real discussion just looking for an opening for your smart alec comments.

Ok can you outline the type of discussion that you think is acceptable and I will conform to your standard.


@Aineoil: The Irish State, The Republic of Ireland



@Gebgbegb

The 'over my dead body' teacher (Rainbowtrout) was in a permanent position.
The other teacher (Gabriel Chilly Orangutan) was not, took a stand, and got punished as a result.

How will blocking the new junior cert solve the problem?



Predicted outcome: The unions and the gov will battle and in the end a half arse system will be implemented and the teachers can smile smugly say "Told you it wouldn't work

I know you like the drama so here's how it plays out in some of the UK schools that I'm familiar with (through talking to other teachers).

Principal: Could you have a look at those grades again Mr. Bjork or maybe rerun a more suitable test?
Mr. Bjork: Why is that Principal?
Principal: Well I just noticed that some of your students havn't been improving on their previous scores so that leeds me to believe that either you need a bit of help with your teaching or that the test wasn't suitable... oh by the way I meant to say it lst week, have I spoken to you yet about hours for next year, could you schedule an appt. with the secretary?
Mr. Bjork: Sure thing

So what do you do????

You say,

Mr. Bjork: well they sat the test issued by the exam board that the school subscribes to and as our department agreed on as a whole as it included a broad range of objectives and which you also agreed to ?
I have highlighted the poor performing pupils and done X, y, z to rectify the situation. Here's their profile. That's the level they are working at. I have discussed this with my colleagues and together we have tried x,y,z to rectify the situation.

We need the students in here to tell us why they have not. As you are aware, I have highlighted the issue with the head of department, with their parents and also with the students individually themselves on various occasions . I also highlighted it with yourself at the meetings. . I have given advice on what they need to do and facilitated it myself.


Maybe I don't need help with my teaching. I have identified area x as an issue I am having with this group. I have asked my colleagues for advice and last week some of them came in to observe me and gave me some useful feedback. I am doing x to work on that. I you have the time, would you pop in to some of my classes and observe me in action.







" things I have learned from this thread
There is a prevailing mentality of
1)"It's not being done already so it can't be done"
2) We want to get one over on the government
3) We are unwilling to engage on a meaningful level. Forget about what's be done and focus on where we need to be and how to get there.
4) We support student led learning, once it's teacher led
5) On the point "teachers can't be trusted"
a) They don't want to be
b)The majority can there are safeguards which can be put in place to catch those that don't

man_no_plan

bjork wrote: »

I have adressed everything I was asked. I have asked lotys iof questions that haven't been answered





^^ Payment by results. Is this proposed or is this you drawing inferences? > No, it's just making stuff up and adding it on



How can you say this? The poster before you has directly experienced the SEC putiting pressure on them to change results. Are you saying they are lying?





Not because it is inconvenient to my argument but because that;s how department are usually structured


Unlike you who is ranting about paying by results




Sorry, but where have I said they don't?



This thread is about the new junior cert reforms. I have asked questions and outlined my position, if you can't engage with me from all I have already posted, good luck to you! Why should I outline what I think current school structure is. Why can't we talk about what it should be. Are you capable of doing that and justifying why? What is the purpose in that activity?


Your posted shows an astonishing lack of comprehension about the posts I made.

The poster was not and did not imply that the SEC pressured them to do anything. They rang to check was it correct that the child handy don't the work and indicated that if the work was done a note from the teacher would be sufficient to allow marks to be allocated.

You want to talk about how structure should be! That's what I want and I want to know that we can achieve the proper structure BEFORE we force change onto an unfit system. Again you refuse to engage on the substantive issue.

I have linked articles to support two points I have made but you pick holes with hearsay and ignore evidence. The payments by results and school competition are commonplace in other countries who have started reform in this way. Even in the absence of it competition between schools increases and as Mobil students move to 'better' schools equity and equality decrease.

Heard a song on the radio today, sums you up well, it went ' ...rebel without a clue...'

bjork

man_no_plan wrote: »

The poster was not and did not imply that the SEC pressured them to do anything. They rang to check was it correct that the child handy don't the work and indicated that if the work was done a note from the teacher would be sufficient to allow marks to be allocated...'

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

Report what? He did nothing technically wrong.

SEC still wanted me to let the student claim the credit even when I explained situation (student had attended less than 30% of classes so hadn't even done, let alone written up, the experiments) so I don't think they were much interested in the principal's lack of ethics anyway.

Now we have to notify principal in advance if student won't be submitting coursework. He then pulls that student out of class for blocks of time with sub teachers or even SNAs to get them through the write ups - a total misuse of resources wasted on those who don't deserve it - and more classroom time lost for those students. A total farce that is only set to get worse.

................

r93kaey5p2izun

The SEC said it was up to me if I wanted the child to get the credit, and repeated that the option was there to send the fax over the next few days if I changed my mind. Yes they said this even after I said that the child had not done the work. The SEC did not put pressure on me and at no time did I say that.

Aineoil

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

A discussion doesn't have to be conducted with a constant barrage of sarcastic or glib comments. That style really doesn't lend itself to sharing and considering opposing opinions and differing ideas. Like I said, it simply reads like a deliberate argument rather than an attempt at meaningful discussion. It's hard to keep up with your opinion through all the flippancy and derisive comments, so I have to wonder what you are trying to achieve.

Your latest edit confirms you're not here for real discussion just looking for an opening for your smart alec comments.

I am glad this has come to some sort of an end. I really feel for those of you

that teach in the secondary school system. It's not easy!!

seavill

Bjork

Irish school don't have heads of department, the closets thing would be a subject coordinator (which translates to the person to takes the minutes at a subject meeting)
In a lot of subjects there may be only one teacher, so who looks at their results (they are the "head of department")

You have a lack of understanding about some things that people are referring to which is understandable, from someone that doesn't work in the system.
The SEC are supposed to send out inspectors to check the Science course work, these are different to the general inspectors that would assess teachers on a day to day basis. As has been pointed out by other posters the Department clearly don't fund this properly if people are not going out to schools. They have other inspectors who go out to schools during practicals/orals etc to check everything is going the right way. They are different to the people who actually grade the practicals/orals etc.

The SEC "putting pressure" as you have interpreted it, is the SEC saying look if you tick the box the person will get the marks. Putting pressure is probably a strong term to describe this. The SEC ringing about it is them doing their job making sure that mistakes were not made. A point someone mentioned that they do run a very good exams system overall.
The principal putting pressure on a teacher is a different kettle of fish altogether. This does happen. You can go back and search my history here to find the full stories, which I really don't want to have to go into detail again on here, but I have had a principal demand that I accept work after a deadline because one student cheated and copied another and I saw it before the examiner. I was abused in the office by their parents (of course I was in the wrong). Those parents then went on to slag me off locally with their version of the events (that obviously didn't make their Johnny look bad).
I had another principal demand that i accept coursework after the deadline. I refused again. As others have said on both occasions my hours dropped the following year. No way of proving that it was because of X, Y or Z but I know from the animosity I felt.
Don't get me started on going to the unions - they managed to lose an argument where a non teacher was given a job ahead of me, a person qualified for that position. Super stuff those unions.

As for giving the students the responsibility over their learning, I gave my 6th years (all 17 going on 18 years old) a deadline to meet for me to assess their coursework prior to final completion, only one person showed me any work. I give my JCs worksheets that must be handed up with their projects at the end (worth x amount of marks) they lose them etc. etc. If the 18 year olds are not seeing the greater good of their own education then the younger ones are less likely to also.

A lot of what you are saying is great in an ideal world, but the realities on the ground are different which is where many of your points are clashing with others.

I'm not particularly interested in getting into the back and forth with you that others have, there was just a few things that I saw as misunderstanding that I thought I might try clear up.
I do think your arguments did hold water early on when you were up for a discussion even late last night but particularly today your smart answers back, and throw away comments/responses haven't helped you from my reading of it.

I think behind it all without going into everything line by line, the moral of the story is we have no problem assessing daily, giving and assessing objectives, getting the kids to work towards x, y or z but the fairness of the current system (the anonymity not he terminal exam) is something that is very good.
I will give an example from my subject, Woodwork, there is a project worth 66% made up of an artifact to be produced and a booklet to go with it. I will start by setting out the objectives each year, show the kids the way things are marked, what they need to do, etc. etc., I will then daily give them feedback as well as instruction on what they are doing, my feedback might not go towards the final mark but they still get the feedback. When the examiner comes in, in June, he will check the kids against those objectives (he doesn't need to be there every day to see if they achieved those objectives or not), if they are interested they have been given continuous assessment/feedback all year just because it doesn't go on a final sheet of paper doesn't mean they weren't assessed.
My point being that all the components are already there, and being done on a daily basis, yes change the subjects and add in various different forms of assessment but use the external examiners like in practicals, orals etc. It is already done successfully in orals, LVCP, LCA, practicals etc. just extend this system.
In relation to pressure, (pressure being the wrong description) but something similar to what others have said about one school competing for results against other schools, we have 2 second year groups this year, mine telling me that the other class all got between 80 and 100% my class got from 60 upwards, it didn't bother me in the slightest but that was the view of it from the parents/kids, now put that into a meaningful state exam (I don't go for the JC is a waste of time view)

katydid

seavill wrote: »

As for giving the students the responsibility over their learning, I gave my 6th years (all 17 going on 18 years old) a deadline to meet for me to assess their coursework prior to final completion, only one person showed me any work. I give my JCs worksheets that must be handed up with their projects at the end (worth x amount of marks) they lose them etc. etc. If the 18 year olds are not seeing the greater good of their own education then the younger ones are less likely to also.

That's their problem, not yours.

bjork

katydid wrote: »

That's their problem, not yours.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

That's their problem, not yours.

Where did I say any different??
What I said to my kids was it just meant less work for me to do if they don't hand it in its their LC

If you bothered to read back to see what I was referring to you would see it was in relation to a point bjork made in relation to kids taking ownership of their own leaning etc.
I was giving an every day example of what really happens in the classroom.

seavill

bjork wrote: »

You can see my reply to the other poster. I wasn't saying it was my problem I was simply giving an example from the classroom

r93kaey5p2izun

seavill wrote:

The SEC "putting pressure" as you have interpreted it, is the SEC saying look if you tick the box the person will get the marks. Putting pressure is probably a strong term to describe this. The SEC ringing about it is them doing their job making sure that mistakes were not made. A point someone mentioned that they do run a very good exams system overall.
The principal putting pressure on a teacher is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Yes, that's exactly it seavill.

The fact is that at that stage SEC is just checking everything is submitted. It is the teacher's and principal's responsibility to stand over that work being submitted - not SEC. Them saying I could still submit is doing nothing other than making sure the school is certain they have everything in order because at the end of the day it is us, not SEC, who will stand over that submission. We are the ones who have to make that choice.

I think though that the bigger problem with such phonecalls is that it is indicative of the fact that it must be unusual for students not to claim full Coursework A credit and I wonder, given it's not monitored, whether that's really down to all the students really having the work done all the time.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Where did I say any different??
What I said to my kids was it just meant less work for me to do if they don't hand it in its their LC

If you bothered to read back to see what I was referring to you would see it was in relation to a point bjork made in relation to kids taking ownership of their own leaning etc.
I was giving an every day example of what really happens in the classroom.

Just pointing out...

evolving_doors

Bjork: you've a fair few points/posts to get through (if you wish!) so I'll give us all some reflection time for a day or two.

Enough of the gifs and emotocons :eek::(:mad::):rolleyes: people take the time to outline a multilayered issue and don't deserve selective minimal responses.

Mod: