Teacher going on hunger strike

bjork

amacca wrote: »

.....

I'm a former scientist and I find that unusual - what sort of science doesn't assess in some way under time constraints? Have you never had to produce a paper or set of results/preliminary findings/feasibility study etc etc within a certain time frame?

amacca wrote: »

Produce a paper/result in work: not an exam
Have you never had to have a funding proposal in by a certain date? etc

Not an exam

amacca wrote: »

those are all exams under time constraints imo

You opinion is not accurate, how about we use the definition> This might be what caused the confusion

amacca wrote: »

And outside of work:

Have you never had to give a thesis defence?

Had your doctoral thesis assessed etc etc

Had your papers peer reviewed?

Never sat an exam during your degree in college? as part of your training to see if you knew some you know "science" in order to become a scientist

.........

Yes, this is study and it is a form of assessment
You seem to think exams will never be used again as a form of assessment in any course ever again, ever

amacca

bjork wrote: »

So teachers can't be trusted as professionals?

Of course....after all if they could be trusted as one homogenous group...why have inspectors etc

you really are naieve............no group of humans can be expected to behave perfectly in the interests of an ideal...there are checks and balances in every walk of life, lots of professions have professional bodies regulating them..it is human to err after all....do you think teachers no more than any other profession are somehow beyond reproach

the fact they want this pressure removed/not imposed in the first place in order to have the fairest system possible and not let it degenerate because of the unfair outside pressure that will result is a good sign for the intentions of the profession as a whole though imo

bjork wrote: »

Is a teacher caught fudging results going to be rehired next year? That should be career suicide. Like an accounting cooking books

Oh it won't start out that way...it never does but it will get there eventually.....it will be endemic....they will have to either spend more preventing this from happening with inspectors etc or cleaning up the monumental pr mess and repetitional damage that ensues after a goodly period of time has elapsed and all the cooing from the spin doctors etc has died down...you seem like you are old enough to remember FAS.

bjork wrote: »

The rest is teach narcissism "I want it to appear my students are doing well because I'm a fantastic teacher, regardless of if the students are actually learning.

Giving it a fancy name doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that its not a powerful motivating factor.

bjork wrote: »

The whole point of education is for students to learn, not for teachers to teach
Why do the teachers have to badger them for projects? What not give the responsibility of the learning over to the student? You'd be surprised how much this actually engages students in their learning, taking ownership for failures and successes? Clear objectives in lessons either have or haven't been met. Let the student determine what level they are working at.

LOL - out of curiosity have you ever actually taught in a second level classroom?

If you did you would know why teachers have to badger students for projects, particularly in a school where there are a large proportion of disadvantaged students.

why not give the responsibility over for learning over to the student?...........this is actually what many teachers try to do on a daily basis and it would be lovely and might have worked in a lot of schools in the sixties and maybe even in some now if they were allowed suffer the consequences of not taking on that responsibility but try it out properly now in many classrooms with large proportions of disadvantaged kids who simply don't give a toss and you are looking at huge proportions of the class failing/not even bothering to hand up any work

fine I suppose: if your future prospects or job didn't depend on it but many teachers prospects do

thats why some teachers are at their wits end using every trick in the book including trying to get the students to take responsibility for their own learning just to get them to write something relevant for these projects

bjork wrote: »

Have prevalent is this in third level institutions currently?

I don't really know, I do know that it was clearly happening while I was there but not uneasy to detect or prove ways (and not so much in my course where they actually seemed to want to trick you into doing poorly at times)

but repetition of familiar exam questions, easier standard of questions compared to past etc

bjork wrote: »

the department will just have to carry out intensive random sampling and follow up action for those cause doing it. If completely unsure but suspect some is doing is, have an inspector randomly and unknowingly call in to the class to gauge knowledge and understanding from pupils directly. external overseers.

Sounds expensive...wouldn't it be more cost effective to have the various different forms of assessment marked externally/anonymously?

bjork wrote: »

That's because the current system is based on grades. Parent has a problem. Call them in have a chat, look a the work. Clear objectives have or have not being met.It the teacher has marked fairly and impartially their hands are clean. Have the student explain why? It's their learning. Why is the teacher speaking on behalf of the student? Home school and parents need to work together to develop the students learning, not the teacher explaining to the parent why the student is not learning. Teach the students to speak for themselves, again, take ownership of their learning

Every system will be based on grades - there is no way around it...you can dress it up any way you want but it still divides groups into sub groups which are more meritorious than others

agreed on the rest but again its already happening - to require more of it would require a reduction in the burden on teachers time elsewhere.

bjork wrote: »

Fairness can be possible if students are given responsibility for their own learning.

agreed.....and one of the best ways of ensuring this is knowing there will be an impartial, external anonymous testing system (with as many forms of assessment as you like) providing an assessment of that student......not their own teachers caught between a rock and a hard place.

amacca

bjork wrote: »

Most employer make candidates sit an exam? No they don't

Are you incapable of even reading the section you have quoted - nowhere does it say most employers make candidates sit an exam

I believe the words interview, portfolio, project, demonstration were there along with exams, have read there of the section of my post you quoted

point being many subjects already assess more than just a written exam......understand?

my question once again....what along with these would you suggest is used for the purposes of accreditation?

bjork wrote: »

You are focusing on results and not what learning is occurring
You are teaching to the test
Employers are looking for more in a candidate that the ability to pass exams

which is why they interview, ask them to demonstrate things, require proof of a body of work

eg: the things I've mentioned above.......

bjork wrote: »

I think a teacher should assess their pupils continuously in the class and able to give a better learning experience for pupils in the class

as I've said before they already do...they just want the final grade/mark etc assessed anonymously/externally in the interests of fairness.

bjork wrote: »

Hey if we want them to be good bankers how about we teach them to eat 20 burgers at once while we bet on them? I was just reading a story there about a city traders initiation test. If that's what bankers want> We must model our children to match

a bit facetious...I think its clear to any fair minded person thats not what I was suggesting

interesting you should try to associate my argument with bankers given the negative connotations that would bring......weak

bjork

amacca wrote: »

Are you incapable of even reading the section you have quoted - nowhere does it say most employers make candidates sit an exam

I believe the words interview, portfolio, project, demonstration were there along with exams, have read there of the section of my post you quoted

point being many subjects already assess more than just a written exam......understand?

my question once again....what along with these would you suggest is used for the purposes of accreditation?




which is why they interview, ask them to demonstrate things, require proof of a body of work

eg: the things I've mentioned above.......



as I've said before they already do...they just want the final grade/mark etc assessed anonymously/externally in the interests of fairness.




a bit facetious...I think its clear to any fair minded person thats not what I was suggesting

interesting you should try to associate my argument with bankers given the negative connotations that would bring......weak

That's what I said? are you on about? Of course work is assessed. I have answered you question many times, you are just refusing to see what I wrote asnd keep saying "accreditation! " What about it? I've answered this questions hundreds of time

".what along with these would you suggest is used for the purposes of accreditation?" - TEACHERS ASSESSMENT >> Hope that's clear enough


I'm niaeve for believing teacher can be professional?

Ok then, the can't be. They have no interest in students learning beyond accreditation results. They actually have little knowledge of what skills students need. Teachers are unable to make schools about learning because it's all about teaching, and they can't see the difference.



Yes, interviews are a chance to demonstrate knowledge,> Well Done!! >>I think you'll find, it was you who was saying an employers care no more than an exam result and making you sit another test??!!??



What the banks want , the banks get. We have to keep the junior cert because banks have entrance exams>> This is your argument, I was trying to see how far you would bend for the bank. You mentioned banks first and gave it as a reason why the junior cert is important. But suddenly you don't like when I use your example???>>Not the first time that's happened

I'm clearly not suggesting that everyone will be a civil servant or an accountant - there are many more professions/roles where written exams are par for the course and considered by employers to be the best method of assessing aptitude for the role and the level of work/preparation the candidate has put into the process

It's a long time since schools have been about student education has been about student learning and I'm beginning to think that's because teachers only care about teaching and not student learning >> Some are so thick they can even distinguish between the two.


Also you are missing the point of student led learning if you think the teacher should be nagging the,. DO you know what it means?

bjork

Also did you report the lecturer that was taking money to inflate grades that you know of?


That's a very serious accusation. It could be easy enough for me to search through your posting history, find where and when you where educated and narrow it down to a handful of people.

Did you report it to the Gardai?

jam17032010

I was going to pick out some quotes of the back and forth between amaca and bjork but they are quite long so I'm just going to simplify it for bjork if I can.

Teachers don't want to grade their own pupils because of the fear of corruption or even the perception of corruption in the system. Now bjork might say that teachers can't be trusted to be professional, but come on, this is Ireland. Corruption is in all walks of life here and teachers are not immune. For a variety of reasons. Contract pressure, parent pressure, principal pressure, ego, nepotism etc. Even if there was zero corruption, the perception of it would erode confidence in our system. Wasn't there ESRI figures out not so long ago that our exam structure has the highest public confidence in the ESRI. If I was teaching a relative who happened to get an A, then there would always be the possibility of an accusation of nepotism.

And on the argument over our obsession with grades, well I don't see that changing. Our CAO system is based on grades, employers look at University grades on CVs and in some cases Leaving Cert grades.

The argument that "it's only the JC and maybe grades should be scrapped there like the National School exams were scrapped", well I believe that the JC exams are a good practice run prior to the high stakes LC. Imagine going into the LC cold, what would the stress be like then. Maybe the LC structure should be looked at first.

Finally, the notion that teachers are against continuous assessment (as is the narrative in the media) is false. We just don't want to be part of a system open to corruption.

bjork

jam17032010 wrote: »

I was going to pick out some quotes of the back and forth between amaca and bjork but they are quite long so I'm just going to simplify it for bjork if I can.

Teachers don't want to grade their own pupils because of the fear of corruption or even the perception of corruption in the system. Now bjork might say that teachers can't be trusted to be professional, but come on, this is Ireland. Corruption is in all walks of life here and teachers are not immune. For a variety of reasons. Contract pressure, parent pressure, principal pressure, ego, nepotism etc. Even if there was zero corruption, the perception of it would erode confidence in our system. Wasn't there ESRI figures out not so long ago that our exam structure has the highest public confidence in the ESRI. If I was teaching a relative who happened to get an A, then there would always be the possibility of an accusation of nepotism.

And on the argument over our obsession with grades, well I don't see that changing. Our CAO system is based on grades, employers look at University grades on CVs and in some cases Leaving Cert grades.

The argument that "it's only the JC and maybe grades should be scrapped there like the National School exams were scrapped", well I believe that the JC exams are a good practice run prior to the high stakes LC. Imagine going into the LC cold, what would the stress be like then. Maybe the LC structure should be looked at first.

Finally, the notion that teachers are against continuous assessment (as is the narrative in the media) is false. We just don't want to be part of a system open to corruption.

You could simplify it a bit more and add a link to your ERSI survey> Google throws back nothing for me


You give your niece an A: Do you not think the school will be cross checking your results? How about your colleagues and your head of department? Will you not be discussing and sharing results? If your niece is obviously a grade C students all through her years and suddenly she is a grade A student, will nobody else notice? On top of that random department inspection. Do you not think that anyone will notice or that you will have to justify the grade you are giving at any stage, to anyone? >> Now who's naive?

By your logic also, should we trust the Gardai? Sure they'd be just letting their neighborhoods do what ever they want because pressure from their neighbors?? Can I trust my bank manger not to throw a few extra quid in to my account to make me happy. Are teachers in the business of making people happy or educating people?



Take that back even further, Will the student themselves be happy with a false grade? With no idea what they actually know or where they need to improve? > This depends on a number of things; For the last 3 year of school, in each lesson, do they know what grade they are working at and what steps they need to take to improve that grade? Are they given the opportunity to improve that grade. If so, they know a long time before results day, what grade they are working at. Most students do actually want to learn, not be fed the information. We need to train them to do this.

What benefit is it to anyone to falsify results?

How about letting the student determine their own results. >> Give them the descriptors and let them decide themselves. Every objective, have they met it? >> Just like a teacher is trained in assessment, so too do the students need to be. If I can't assess what I know, how do I know what I need to learn to improve? Now, you might say "Sure students will just give themselves all A's">> they won't, there are measures to stop this, but I'll emphasis again, the students will need to be trained to do this over time and will have to be backed up by advice, guidance and facilitation by the teachers.


Any way we could change the CAO system>> Is it necessary it remains in it's current form? Grades in University are given by the people who write the exam. Why would employer trust this?

ooh, I think you can't change the leaving cert structure without changing the junior cert structure. The country would melt down


I can't imagine teachers being against continuous assessment; but are they against student led learning?

bjork

Also in what other situation in life does someone else justify for you why you are not achieving? I can't think of one situation apart from the teacher justifying to a parent why the student is not achieving

jam17032010

bjork wrote: »

You could simplify it a bit more and add a link to your ERSI survey> Google throws back nothing for me

Apologies, it was an OECD survey. Found loads of links but can't link because I'm a new user.

bjork wrote: »

You give your niece an A: Do you not think the school will be cross checking your results? How about your colleagues and your head of department? Will you not be discussing and sharing results? If your niece is obviously a grade C students all through her years and suddenly she is a grade A student, will nobody else notice? On top of that random department inspection. Do you not think that anyone will notice or that you will have to justify the grade you are giving at any stage, to anyone? >> Now who's naive?

Lots of student grades fluctuate in class tests and we could go through many different scenarios, but the bottom line is that it will be a lot more corrupt able than the current system. I also don't trust the DES to adequately resource the inspectorate for this. JC Science coursework A??,

bjork wrote: »

By your logic also, should we trust the Gardai? Sure they'd be just letting their neighborhoods do what ever they want because pressure from their neighbors?? Can I trust my bank manger not to throw a few extra quid in to my account to make me happy. Are teachers in the business of making people happy or educating people?

Genuine lol at this. Guards and bankers not corrupt? Do you read the papers? Penalty points? Banking enquiry? And you call me naive? Lol.

bjork wrote: »

Take that back even further, Will the student themselves be happy with a false grade? With no idea what they actually know or where they need to improve? > This depends on a number of things; For the last 3 year of school, in each lesson, do they know what grade they are working at and what steps they need to take to improve that grade? Are they given the opportunity to improve that grade. If so, they know a long time before results day, what grade they are working at. Most students do actually want to learn, not be fed the information. We need to train them to do this.

Some students want to learn, some students will take an A no matter how they get it.

bjork wrote: »

What benefit is it to anyone to falsify results?

Read my first post. Parents, principals, ego, nepotism etc.

bjork wrote: »

How about letting the student determine their own results. >> Give them the descriptors and let them decide themselves. Every objective, have they met it? >> Just like a teacher is trained in assessment, so too do the students need to be. If I can't assess what I know, how do I know what I need to learn to improve? Now, you might say "Sure students will just give themselves all A's">> they won't, there are measures to stop this, but I'll emphasis again, the students will need to be trained to do this over time and will have to be backed up by advice, guidance and facilitation by the teachers.

Students mark themselves for certification? Not sure about that.

bjork wrote: »

Any way we could change the CAO system>> Is it necessary it remains in it's current form? Grades in University are given by the people who write the exam. Why would employer trust this?

ooh, I think you can't change the leaving cert structure without changing the junior cert structure. The country would melt down

Ya. LC probably needs to be looked at.

bjork wrote: »

I can't imagine teachers being against continuous assessment; but are they against student led learning?

No.

bjork

jam17032010 wrote: »

Apologies, it was an OECD survey. Found loads of links but can't link because I'm a new user.

Put in a few spaces to break the link and I'll work it out from there >> eg: www. bjork .com/

jam17032010 wrote: »

Lots of student grades fluctuate in class tests and we could go through many different scenarios, but the bottom line is that it will be a lot more corrupt able than the current system. I also don't trust the DES to adequately resource the inspectorate for this. JC Science coursework A??,

Are you saying that inspecting for Junior Science course work is in currently inadequate? Why is this? Would it because it's submitted to an external examiner. How could we improve this process? How about having a full time examiner present? Would that change anything?

jam17032010 wrote: »

Genuine lol at this. Guards and bankers not corrupt? Do you read the papers? Penalty points? Banking enquiry? And you call me naive? Lol.

But banks were bring used as the standard of why we need exams. , are the majority of bankers and gardai corrupt? Is there action taken when they are caught? It doesn't really matter what action is taken against them, can teachers learn anything from this to safeguard their own profession from falling to these issues? >>is the question that they should be asking when they read this: Not bankers are corrupt, so we should be too. It's a false logic.

jam17032010 wrote: »

Some students want to learn, some students will take an A no matter how they get it.

Can't take what they are not given, can they?

jam17032010 wrote: »

Read my first post. Parents, principals, ego, nepotism etc.

Not one mention of the actual student who the education process is actually about

jam17032010 wrote: »

Students mark themselves for certification? Not sure about that.

Not for certification, but in general every topic they study they should be able to assess what level they are working at, why couldn't they? How is a student supposed to know what to do next, if they can't figure out where they went wrong? Is there going to be always someone there to point out where it is they are going wrong? Why would a student not be able to grade themselves? What is it you are unsure about? Giving students the responsibility for their own learning?

jam17032010 wrote: »

Ya. LC probably needs to be looked at.


No.

You're "No" here contradicts this

jam17032010 wrote: »

Students mark themselves for certification? Not sure about that.

and this

jam17032010 wrote: »

Some students want to learn, some students will take an A no matter how they get it.

And if you would adress this
>>

Also in what other situation in life does someone else justify for you why you are not achieving? I can't think of one situation apart from the teacher justifying to a parent why the student is not achieving

jam17032010

bjork wrote: »

Put in a few spaces to break the link and I'll work it out from there >> eg: www. bjork .com/

Www. Google. Ie type in "OECD Ireland public confidence in education system. You will get loads.

bjork wrote: »

Are you saying that inspecting for Junior Science course work is in currently inadequate? Why is this? Would it because it's submitted to an external examiner. How could we improve this process? How about having a full time examiner present? Would that change anything?

No. It is not adequate. An inspector is supposed randomly check schools to ensure coursework A is completed. I have never seen an inspector nor has any teacher I know.

bjork wrote: »

But banks were bring used as the standard of why we need exams. ,

Not by me.

bjork wrote: »

are the majority of bankers and gardai corrupt?

No. And the majority of teachers are not corrupt either. Does not mean there is no corruption.

bjork wrote: »

can teachers learn anything from this to safeguard their own profession from falling to these issues?

Yes. It's called industrial action.

bjork wrote: »

>>is the question that they should be asking when they read this: Not bankers are corrupt, so we should be too. It's a false logic.

I'm beginning to think that your sense of logic is warped which is why it will be my final reply to you. I have better things to be doing. I also think your agenda is preventing you from reading my posts properly so this is really pointless.

bjork wrote: »

Can't take what they are not given, can they?

You were the one who mentioned giving themselves As.

bjork wrote: »

Not one mention of the actual student who the education process is actually about

WHAT??? Seriously?? Read the part of your post that I was responding to. You asked why a teacher would falsify results. I give you a list of reasons and you moan about why I have not mentioned students as if I was some heartless teacher who doesn't care about students???

Your way of debating is twisted. Which is why I am not responding anymore.

You are surely on a wind up or a nut job.

bjork wrote: »

Not for certification, but in general every topic they study they should be able to assess what level they are working at, why couldn't they? How is a student supposed to know what to do next, if they can't figure out where they went wrong? Is there going to be always someone there to point out where it is they are going wrong? Why would a student not be able to grade themselves? What is it you are unsure about? Giving students the responsibility for their own learning?





You're "No" here contradicts this

Self directed learning is not the same as students certifying themselves. :rollseyes:

bjork

jam17032010 wrote: »

Www. Google. Ie type in "OECD Ireland public confidence in education system. You will get loads.




No. It is not adequate. An inspector is supposed randomly check schools to ensure coursework A is completed. I have never seen an inspector nor has any teacher I know.




Not by me.



No. And the majority of teachers are not corrupt either. Does not mean there is no corruption.


Yes. It's called industrial action.



I'm beginning to think that your sense of logic is warped which is why it will be my final reply to you. I have better things to be doing. I also think your agenda is preventing you from reading my posts properly so this is really pointless.





You were the one who mentioned giving themselves As.







WHAT??? Seriously?? Read the part of your post that I was responding to. You asked why a teacher would falsify results. I give you a list of reasons and you moan about why I have not mentioned students as if I was some heartless teacher who doesn't care about students???

Your way of debating is twisted. Which is why I am not responding anymore.

You are surely on a wind up or a nut job.



Self directed learning is not the same as students certifying themselves. :rollseyes:

I want the link you are referring to please. As you say there are loads on google, how will I know I am discussing the same one as you, Link it.

You learned "Industrial Action" >> I don't think that's a learning outcome is it it?

You've never seen an external inspector? and yet you are advocating an external corrector, corrects the new junior cert? Why? So you wouldn't have to see them?

Would you see an inspector if the inspector was full time in the class?

You were the one who mentioned giving themselves As.

Was I??

Here's your quote

Originally Posted by jam17032010 View Post
Some students want to learn, some students will take an A no matter how they get it.

Yes you did not mention students. Ccan you answer the question with reference to the students, as it is their education we are taking about?


I am a wind up or a nut job because I think students should be given responsibility for their own learning?>>Says at teacher who "supports" student led learning


:pac::pac:

Yes you are correct, self directed learning is not the same as students certifying themselves, I agree no need for the rolleyes


I support all reforms but no changes

liam7831

Wonder will she use some of her 3 weeks a yr sick days for this ?

man_no_plan

Take that back even further, Will the student themselves be happy with a false grade? With no idea what they actually know or where they need to improve? > This depends on a number of things; For the last 3 year of school, in each lesson, do they know what grade they are working at and what steps they need to take to improve that grade? Are they given the opportunity to improve that grade. If so, they know a long time before results day, what grade they are working at. Most students do actually want to learn, not be fed the information. We need to train them to do this.

What benefit is it to anyone to falsify results?

How about letting the student determine their own results. >> Give them the descriptors and let them decide themselves. Every objective, have they met it? >> Just like a teacher is trained in assessment, so too do the students need to be. If I can't assess what I know, how do I know what I need to learn to improve? Now, you might say "Sure students will just give themselves all A's">> they won't, there are measures to stop this, but I'll emphasis again, the students will need to be trained to do this over time and will have to be backed up by advice, guidance and facilitation by the teachers.


Any way we could change the CAO system>> Is it necessary it remains in it's current form? Grades in University are given by the people who write the exam. Why would employer trust this?

ooh, I think you can't change the leaving cert structure without changing the junior cert structure. The country would melt down


I can't imagine teachers being against continuous assessment; but are they against student led learning?[/QUOTE]


I'm not great at multiquoting but I'll try to address some of the points you raise here even though the question isn't aimed at me.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teachingcouncil.ie%2Fpress-releases-and-speeches%2Fteaching-council-welcomes-esri-findings-re-public-perception-of-the-education-system.1133.html&ei=Bn8qVaavLMS17gb11YGoCw&usg=AFQjCNEX5Jsk9TcG7619mBxd6-O5RyVEAw. Not that hard really

Niece getting A's!

Head of department? what WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN? We don't have HOD's on a formal basis in Ireland in general, even if we did checking results is not part of their remit. Of course it could be under a new post structure but as you keep saying there's no extra work involved in the new proposals so its probably not needed.

I teach my niece, and my wife's first cousin. If I wanted I could doctor the results and I know I wouldn't be caught. I know that it can be done. We have had inquiry after inquiry into the Garda and the HSE with adverse findings - have you heard of any cases against the SEC? No you haven't and this gives teachers the security of having independent verification of student achievement. This brings me back to the point about my own niece... It is very possible that when she got a B from me at Christmas that other students think that its because of her relationship with me I'm fine with that because I know when the JC rolls around that she'll most likelier still get a B, or an A, based on her ability and that that grade wont be questioned. Don't talk about naivety, the system of house exams is not rock solid and rigorously checked and double checked.


Trusting the Gardai

Only saw that now - have you heard of GSOC and the Garda Authority and the Department of Justice? Those boys need three bodies to keep an eye on them by the looks of things! Where human interaction ids involved there is always some scope for things to go awry. The Teaching Council is there for professional oversight and the SEC is there to ensure the integrity of the Exams the quality of Teaching and Learning is the remit of the Inspectorate. The fact is, and I know, that parents want the 'best' for their child if that means getting a better grade in a test that's good enough for them - some of them will ring who they can to get what they want. Where you have fee paying schools and wealthy benefactors who knows what might happen? there's no oversight there.

Students happy with a false grade?

The latest thing is a price per grade! I know of several students who are being motivated by parents where they have agreed 20 for an A 15 for a B and so on for summer tests. I didn't believe it at first. For every diligent student who would prefer an honest grade I'm sure there would be ten who would take it.


Change the CAO!

Of course! I personally think it should have started there. We have a culture of high regard for the LC here it is THE standard for third level entry in Ireland. ?Until this changes your arguments are baseless - so many people would not have the tail of assessment wagging the education dog. You haven't broken new ground here Bjork! It is however irrelevant in the context of JC reform as we are where we are right here, right now.

Self assessment

In my experience self assessment is very useful. Students can certainly rate their own work, they are generally honest if not a bit hard on themselves. What they lack is the ability to see why they fall short and move forward. We call that feedback assessment for learning.

The problem with the new JC is that there is no assessment for learning. They do get assessed on different types of learning but there result is still the problem. A focus on results leads to a focus on the product rather than the process of learning. - Google Black and William AFL - Very interesting study. We are still assessing students at the end of a cycle which is important also. So many people are confusing AFL and Continuous assessment.

Take the JC English oral - one shot, result - Game over. There wont be another oral ion third year. There will be a result, will there be feedback? Who knows? And that's the problem. Nobody seems to know. They didn't know at the first English in service, I hope they know now.


Not only is the assessment unclear. The resorting is unclear. The DES seems to have conceded that the assessment will take place in class time. There is no indication of where all the other work will take place.

Personally I'm in favour of a new system. But one that suits our context, not a bastardised version of what they have in Finland. May countries have tried to ape what the Finns have done. Pasi Sahlberg calls it GERM the Global Education Reform Movement have a read of this http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/how-germ-is-infecting-schools-around-the-world/2012/06/29/gJQAVELZAW_blog.html

The problem is not reform. It’s the manner in which it is being enforced rather than implemented. Are you goint to tell me that all that’s good in the JC reform doesn’t exist already? It does of course but in a rush to look like we’re reforming we are getting into the worst aspects of reform. Read Michael Fullan on Educational Change and Andy Hargreaves on ‘Teaching in the Knowledge Society,. All this information being ignored.

bjork

^^ Your link does not prove what was claimed


"Wasn't there ESRI figures out not so long ago that our exam structure has the highest public confidence in the ESRI"


Your survey says: We asked a 1000 Irish people what they thought of Irish education and they answered. The perceive the benefit to be better than average than their European counterparts perceive their systems (Maybe Ego is falsifying results??!!)

Maybe you could link the one that amacha is referring to where were have the highest public confidence in the OCED.

You haven't broken new ground here Bjork!

I never claimed to, but the way certain people are acting it's the first they've heard of it and I must be nuts!!

Head of department? what WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN? We don't have HOD's on a formal basis in Ireland

How can a department function without a head? Who leads the team meetings? :pac: Who drives progress and ensures standards across the department?

some of them will ring who they can to get what they want

:pac: How does should this go? Hey teacher Jimmy isn't getting his grades. I'm going to ring Joe Duffy/Politicians/the mafia and get it sorted

Mafia call around. Bujourno, meester bjork. Jimmy mama's says Jimmy is not getting the grado!?!

Teacher: Ok Lets get have a look. Jimmy did not meet objectives x, y,and z and for that that reason it he is working at a level C. Jimmy has the ability to do better and has been given the tools and opportunities to improve, as we have discussed previously with both Jimmy and his parents. Jimmy did not take any of these opportunities and not progressed to the next level. You need to ask Jimmy why he did not do that.

Mafia: Ok I will
Jimmy: I couldn't have been bothered, even though I knew I was working at a level below the grade I wanted. I knew since the day I did it, I wasn't reaching the objectives to be at the level I wanted, but I didn't do anything about it.



Mafia: Jimmy...why I ought to....!!

What they lack is the ability to see why they fall short and move forward. We call that feedback assessment for learning.

Yes, we do and it's aim is to train students with this ability, No?



Of course assessment will place in class time>> It's fundamental to the process. It's carried out through the activities done during class. It is integrated and is not a separate thing>> It can't be, and that's why the teacher needs to do it


What else do you suggest, set aside a few hours and put them in a hall to do them?>> That's an exam











Edit: Is this the survey you are refering to

The Irish public trusts our education system and schools – highest level of
public satisfaction out of 34 countries (OECD, 2013).


>>Taken straight out of the union leaflet :pac:, pac:

http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Parents_Leaflet.pdf

byhookorbycrook

I find the remark that "I have never seen an inspector and neither has any teacher I know," quite amusing. WSEs , drive-bys are all much increased and I think it very odd no-one you know has been involved in inspection, frankly.

r93kaey5p2izun

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I find the remark that "I have never seen an inspector and neither has any teacher I know," quite amusing. WSEs , drive-bys are all much increased and I think it very odd no-one you know has been involved in inspection, frankly.

I think that comment is specifically in reference to monitoring of JC Science Coursework A. The reality is that this is not monitored. I have also never heard of any school being inspected in this regard.

rainbowtrout

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I find the remark that "I have never seen an inspector and neither has any teacher I know," quite amusing. WSEs , drive-bys are all much increased and I think it very odd no-one you know has been involved in inspection, frankly.

I think that remark was in relation to JC Science Coursework A.

Students are required to write up 30 experiments which they have completed in class over 3 years. The list of experiments is in a booklet which is enclosed with their written exam. There is a tick box for each experiment. Once students have ticked off the 30 experiments they get the full 10%.

I'd echo the sentiment, no one has ever gone out to a school to do a spot check on the experiment copies. So much so, that the last two years when I had third years I had one or two students who didn't complete and write up all of the experiments and I wouldn't allow those students tick off the incomplete experiments. I had a phone call both years from the SEC telling me that some of my students had forgotten to fill in the boxes. If I sent a fax confirming they had done the experiments they would give them the marks. I refused to send the fax on both occasions. I could have, the students would have got the marks for free and no one would be any the wiser.

r93kaey5p2izun

I've also been contacted by SEC a few years ago when I wouldn't allow student tick all boxes. I was then admonished by my principal for not allowing student claim credit.

bjork

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

I've also been contacted by SEC a few years ago when I wouldn't allow student tick all boxes. I was then admonished by my principal for not allowing student claim credit.

Did the world burn when you refused?

Did the principal offer you a few bob to tick the box? ;);)



Are you a multi millionaire now, loved in the community?

rainbowtrout

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

I've also been contacted by SEC a few years ago when I wouldn't allow student tick all boxes. I was then admonished by my principal for not allowing student claim credit.

I think I mentioned 'lack of professionalism' and 'over dead body' in my rant and that was the end of it.

r93kaey5p2izun

bjork wrote: »

Did the world burn when you refused?

I lost hours in the school. The principal is still angry.

rainbowtrout

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

I lost hours in the school. The principal is still angry.

That's really crap Gabriel Chilly Orangutan. But indicative of the type of thing that can and will happen if we are forced to correct our own students' work without any external monitoring.

bjork

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think I mentioned 'lack of professionalism' and 'over dead body' in my rant and that was the end of it.

The end of it :eek:

Was there not not a queue of politicians outside the door baying for your blood?

bjork

Gabriel Chilly Orangutan wrote: »

I lost hours in the school. The principal is still angry.

Have you reported him to the SEC for his antics?


Too much power in this regard is given to the principles. Teachers need proper contracts. But if you don't report it how can anything be done about it?

jam17032010

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I find the remark that "I have never seen an inspector and neither has any teacher I know," quite amusing. WSEs , drive-bys are all much increased and I think it very odd no-one you know has been involved in inspection, frankly.

I was only talking about JC Science Coursework A inspections. The level of comprehension by bjork and byhookorbycrook is astoundingly bad. Maybe the new JC English course can't come quick enough.

Aineoil

I have been following this thread with interest. I'm a primary school teacher and I just think that evaluating my students' work and or

progress would prove difficult, not because I'm not professional, but there are parents out there (only a few) who think their children

are more talented than they are.

We administer the standardised tests every year and are obliged to give out the results to pupils in 2nd and 5th class. There's no

evaluation on my part in these tests,because there's only one or two correct answers. But I still get parents (only few I admit) who

will dispute the result and ask for a retest. The result after the retest may or not vary only a little about a percentile or so.

bjork

I thought that was a great system

Current JC science syllabus involves coursework set by department, completed in class, but coursework book is sent away for correction with written exams.

This system works, and students can be assured that their work is corrected anonymously, and to the same standards and marking schemes as other students nationall

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95037541&postcount=38

r93kaey5p2izun

bjork wrote: »

Have you reported him to the SEC for his antics?


Too much power in this regard is given to the principles. Teachers need proper contracts. But if you don't report it how can anything be done about it?

Report what? He did nothing technically wrong.

SEC still wanted me to let the student claim the credit even when I explained situation (student had attended less than 30% of classes so hadn't even done, let alone written up, the experiments) so I don't think they were much interested in the principal's lack of ethics anyway.

Now we have to notify principal in advance if student won't be submitting coursework. He then pulls that student out of class for blocks of time with sub teachers or even SNAs to get them through the write ups - a total misuse of resources wasted on those who don't deserve it - and more classroom time lost for those students. A total farce that is only set to get worse.

bjork

Aineoil wrote: »

I have been following this thread with interest. I'm a primary school teacher and I just think that evaluating my students' work and or

progress would prove difficult, not because I'm not professional, but there are parents out there (only a few) who think their children

are more talented than they are.

We administer the standardised tests every year and are obliged to give out the results to pupils in 2nd and 5th class. There's no

evaluation on my part in these tests,because there's only one or two correct answers. But I still get parents (only few I admit) who

will dispute the result and ask for a retest. The result after the retest may or not vary only a little about a percentile or so.

That's why we need to be less reliant on tests and use other methods of assessing. They might argue with an exam grade, but can they argue with proof. Anyhow, it shouldn't be the day of the exam they find out what level they are working with