When to make that call...

LordNorbury

Hi folks, this is not your usual PI type issue but it is a serious issue for me and I'm hoping to get some advice on here. Basically I'm living in an apartment block and it was built back in the Celtic Tiger years, a consequence of which is that the build isn't particularly good and if I'm in my bedroom, I can hear the couple in the apartment next door stirring their cups of tea at their kitchen table.

My issue is that the couple who live in the apartment immediately above mine, are fighting like cats. If this was just a case of two adults who are not getting on, having regular barmies, I would never dream of complaining or acting in any way against them, disruptive and all as it might be.

The problem is that they have a very young child, a toddler, and I don't know whether the mother is just a bad person, or is possibly suffering from undiagnosed post natal depression or is having coping issues in general, but when the child is crying, she literally roars at the child until the child is literally frightened into silence. The arguments that kick off, they are so violent that they sound like they are one step away from one person picking up a knife and stabbing the other. She often seems to be trying to goad him (her partner), into hitting her, he seems to leave the room when this happens but during these daily showdowns, a child is crying constantly and this causes the mother to roar at the child to stop crying and the child being so terrified, usually complies.

I saw her around at the local shop recently and the child was following her and crying and she was screaming profanities at her child in broad daylight, it occurred to me at that point that she has lost all control of her own situation with regard to her role as a parent and a mother.

I feel deep down that I know already that this situation has to be escalated to some state entity such as social services or Gardai, but my issue is that if I call the Gardai, they would have to actually witness these episodes before my word could be taken as a sign of a serious problem here, I also have concerns about being called a "rat", as I am not into sticking my nose into other people's affairs, but this situation as it stands, feels like I am ignoring a situation of child abuse, as there is clearly a child being abused here and whether the cause of that is a bad case of post natal depression, or whether it is someone with serious coping issues, or whether it is someone who is just a bad person, who am I do say what the cause is, I'm not qualified to answer that question.

My worst fear at the moment is that I leave the apartment one of these mornings to see the Garda forensics van outside my door and that a serious assault or worse, a death has occurred and these rows are that violent, that they are literally one step away from someone picking up a knife and stabbing someone, as I said above, she is literally goading him into physical violence, and I don't know what is happening subsequent to her saying "come on come on you big man, fúcking hit me", as I said, it sounds like he goes in to another room for a minute, or maybe he is putting his hand over her mouth, I genuinely don't know.

I don't know what to do as someone who is unfortunately privy to this fairly hopeless situation and am looking for some advice.

Pawwed Rig

Make a call. You can say you are concerned about a situation and explain what is going on. At least then you have done something. I would not have much faith in social services but unfortunately it is the only recourse we have. The poor child must spend its days terrified. Regardless of whether she ever physically hurts the child the terror will affect it as much as anything else. The cause is irrelevant. There are many mothers and fathers out there who are just bad parents.
A Rat? You're not 10. You have a civic and moral responsibility to help someone who is in danger. If you have to go on record then go on record.

LordNorbury

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Make a call. You can say you are concerned about a situation and explain what is going on. At least then you have done something. I would not have much faith in social services but unfortunately it is the only recourse we have. The poor child must spend its days terrified. Regardless of whether she ever physically hurts the child the terror will affect it as much as anything else. The cause is irrelevant. There are many mothers and fathers out there who are just bad parents.
A Rat? You're not 10. You have a civic and moral responsibility to help someone who is in danger. If you have to go on record then go on record.

Thanks for that advice, it is heartbreaking to hear a child screaming in terror and the cause of the terror is the child parent(s). I'm 90% decided on going to local police station tomorrow and giving them information as a confidential/anonymous complainant.

But I know they will want more information (they would be negligent in my view if they didn't try to substantiate what any person may be alleging), so I can expect a request to come into my home and observe this behavior and hear what I am hearing so a judgement call can be made on whether they need to intervene or not. Obviously if I am the person in the community who has been identified as having instigated this, I have concerns, but I know and accept that the concerns for a vulnerable child must override my concerns as having been the person who may have flagged the seriousness of what is going on here.

Pawwed Rig

It is a **** situation to be in but too often in this country people have looked the other way as kids got abused. I would hope this generation will be braver than the previous one when it comes to 'sticking their nose in others business'. I have had to do it myself a couple of years ago but unfortunately nothing was really done about it. You have to be prepared for the apathy that the state will show these issues but at least you will have done what you could.

Afroshack

Oh make the call, please. There's every chance it could escalate and it sounds like that mother desperately needs help. Also, if the parents are as unstable as they sound, they may have already been flagged to the gardai or social services before and yours may be the report that confirms they really do need help or kicks some investigation into place. By the sounds of it, they're not making the effort to hide their problems so Id be surprised if nobody else has picked up on or reported these issues too.

LordNorbury

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It is a **** situation to be in but too often in this country people have looked the other way as kids got abused. I would hope this generation will be braver than the previous one when it comes to 'sticking their nose in others business'. I have had to do it myself a couple of years ago but unfortunately nothing was really done about it. You have to be prepared for the apathy that the state will show these issues but at least you will have done what you could.

That's it exactly, I don't expect the state to intervene and for the situation to then right itself, but I feel like I am ignoring a situation of child abuse which I am obviously not prepared to do on an ongoing basis. This isn't a case of a couple having an occasional row albeit over the top in terms of what might get said, this is at the very very edge of physical violence, two people goading each other into a physical confrontation and a child in the middle of all of this madness screaming out of pure fear and the mother then roaring at the child until it stops crying. She seems like the worst mother on earth but it could be a case of post natal depression or she may be struggling to cope with the changes that come with a child. I wouldn't usually make allowances for someone acting like this but I don't have kids myself so I guess it may be a bad case of post natal depression or coping issues after having had a child.

Pawwed Rig

Think we are making excuses for the mother just coz she's a mother. Some people just are not suitable to be parents.
If the guy was any kind of father he would remove his child from the situation (as it seems like the woman is the aggressor here - not enough info to determine whether the guy is a suitable father or not).

LordNorbury

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Think we are making excuses for the mother just coz she's a mother. Some people just are not suitable to be parents.
If the guy was any kind of father he would remove his child from the situation (as it seems like the woman is the aggressor here - not enough info to determine whether the guy is a suitavble father or not).

You are right there, I discussed this with my brother and he said she was just a scumbag type person who "shouldn't be allowed to breed", but that only deals with things retrospectively, it doesn't sort out the here and the now. I'm going to go to Gardai tomorrow and have a chat with someone there, as another poster has said, they may well be already on the radar in terms of this issue and I would be surprised if they weren't, given the ferocity and extremity of what I am listening to on a daily basis.

Pawwed Rig

LordNorbury wrote: »

You are right there, I discussed this with my brother and he said she was just a scumbag type person who "shouldn't be allowed to breed",

As they say you need a licence for a dog but anyone is allowed have a baby

zeffabelli

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

As they say you need a licence for a dog but anyone is allowed have a baby

A license for a dog is not a permission slip, it has to do with tracability of ownership.

Children, via a bith certificate are tracable to their parents. YEs anyone is "allowed" to have a baby because we have inherint reproductive rights, and when there is a government panel to determine who should be sterilised and who shouldn't be is the day we enter the Fourth Reich.

Completely inappropriate analogy.

I don't see how the superior stance of moralising on who and who can't be a parent is helpful, except to point to one's own direction as the model, perfect, parent.

LordNorbury

I need to add, not that this really matters but I don't even know if the child is his, the child is a toddler, can walk/toddle, so maybe he isn't the father, I know if I was this child's father I would not allow my child to be exposed to this kind of negativity & violence, regardless of what issue I might have with my partner, I wouldn't tolerate my child being placed at the very centre of any disagreements we may have. But he doesn't seem to care that the child is being exposed to this situation, neither does she lthough I reckon she is the child's mother.

I'm going to the Gardai tomorrow about this and will set out the situation pretty much as I have done here.

Neyite

would you consider talking to ispcc first? It sounds like you are worrying about gardai coming around and maybe the parents realising it was you who reported them. I think that they will be a lot more discreet than that.but ispcc might be able to outline what an investigation is likely to involve and you can see then how unlikely it would be that your neighbours would be told it was you.

Either way, make the call please. You will look back and be glad you did.

LordNorbury

zeffabelli wrote: »

A license for a dog is not a permission slip, it has to do with tracability of ownership.

Children, via a bith certificate are tracable to their parents. YEs anyone is "allowed" to have a baby because we have inherint reproductive rights, and when there is a government panel to determine who should be sterilised and who shouldn't be is the day we enter the Fourth Reich.

Completely inappropriate analogy.

I don't see how the superior stance of moralising on who and who can't be a parent is helpful, except to point to one's own direction as the model, perfect, parent.

I would probably agree with you if I wasn't confronted with this situation. I ran this past my brother who I trust hugely and he basically said: "some people shouldn't be allowed have kids". As a single man with no kids who would do a better job of parenting than the couple I am listening to in the apartment above me, a couple that are literally ready to kill/stab each other, I do ask why some people as a matter of automatic constitutional right, have the right to bear children, when they lack the integrity, the humanity, the decency, to raise kids that they create.

LordNorbury

Neyite wrote: »

would you consider talking to ispcc first? It sounds like you are worrying about gardai coming around and maybe the parents realising it was you who reported them. I think that they will be a lot more discreet than that.but ispcc might be able to outline what an investigation is likely to involve and you can see then how unlikely it would be that your neighbours would be told it was you.

Either way, make the call please. You will look back and be glad you did.

I never thought of this as an option, I'm in completely unfamiliar waters here, hence the OP, I thought calling the ISPCC was more for children than it was for an adult with child safety concerns.

zeffabelli

LordNorbury wrote: »

I would probably agree with you if I wasn't confronted with this situation. I ran this past my brother who I trust hugely and he basically said: "some people shouldn't be allowed have kids". As a single man with no kids who would do a better job of parenting than the couple I am listening to in the apartment above me, a couple that are literally ready to kill/stab each other, I do ask why some people as a matter of automatic constitutional right, have the right to bear children, when they lack the integrity, the humanity, the decency, to raise kids that they create.

Well I will ask you, do you trust the police to have the correct protocols in place for handling this?

And if we went by your guidelines, a lot of us wouldn't exist. I certainly would not exist nor would my own kin on the basis that I would not exist in the first place. It wipes out generations. Nor would many other amazing people who have come out through the mire.

Thing is we don't know what is going on...it could be a dark period in their lives...may not be permanent, an overstressed couple..who the hell knows. I don't like some of the moralising on this thread so far about who should and shouldn't be parents, it assumes one knows it all and is perfect themselves.

The clearly need help and that's all that matters for now.

LordNorbury

zeffabelli wrote: »

Well I will ask you, do you trust the police to have the correct protocols in place for handling this?

And if we went by your guidelines, a lot of us wouldn't exist. I certainly would not exist nor would my own kin on the basis that I would not exist in the first place. It wipes out generations. Nor would many other amazing people who have come out through the mire.

Thing is we don't know what is going on...it could be a dark period in their lives...may not be permanent, an overstressed couple..who the hell knows. I don't like some of the moralising on this thread so far about who should and shouldn't be parents, it assumes one knows it all and is perfect themselves.

The clearly need help and that's all that matters for now.

To answer your first question, no I don't trust the Gardai to have the proper protocols in place, I was sexually abused myself as a child and nobody intervened. To this day nobody has been held to account, despite many many allegations having been made against this individual (he was a teacher).

But leaving that aside, that was 20 years ago, things have thankfully changed a lot since then when it comes to child safety and some very basic protocols are in place today that were not in place 20 years ago.

I don't really want to get into a discussion about which classes of society should be allowed to reproduce and which classes should not, although I would have a lot to say if I was to get into such a debate. My concerns at the moment are for a vulnerable child stuck in a situation where the parents appear to hate each other and the child's mother appears to hate the child.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the opinions regarding the right to procreate were those of my brother, they were not my opinions.

Dellnum

Was in a similar situation one time and called the guards, who came and knocked on the door of the offending couple and gave them a pep talk, but didn't come near me. Within a month they had left the house and moved on. Having a chat with the guards might bring them to their eyesight.

The Princess Bride

I worked in this area for many years- with recent child protection legislation, there is no doubt as to how to act.

My motto?
If in doubt shout,shout,shout.
The child is vulnerable and cannot leave this volatile situation.
Also, as time goes on and this behaviour possibly worsens, the child will consider this to be the "norm" as opposed to unacceptable behaviour.

Please contact the Gardaí today- ask for their name and ID number- you can make the difference for this child, where so many others have failed.
Best of luck and thank you for caring.

lovelyjubbly

The Guards are going to tell you to contact your local Social Work Department. They are under no obligation to pass this information on to them and if the incident is not occuring as you make the report them the guards won't (and probably can't) do anything.

If you want to go down the Garda route ring them when something is happening snd express your concern for the child too. Be aware that the Guards are, in theory, supposed to send in a notification to SW but they don't always (eg. saying things like child was upstairs in bed was not present for domestic disharmony).

If you want this investigated, assesed and links to supports then ring the Duty Social Worker in your area. You can give the info confidentially. You never know they might already have a social worker who has concerns but no evidence and this could be the leverage for getting services in.

beyondbelief67

Maybe contact social services ?
They would be able to help far more than gardai could and put the mother in touch with what help she needs plus you don't need to give them your name or info.

LordNorbury

The Princess Bride wrote: »

I worked in this area for many years- with recent child protection legislation, there is no doubt as to how to act.

My motto?
If in doubt shout,shout,shout.
The child is vulnerable and cannot leave this volatile situation.
Also, as time goes on and this behaviour possibly worsens, the child will consider this to be the "norm" as opposed to unacceptable behaviour.

Please contact the Gardaí today- ask for their name and ID number- you can make the difference for this child, where so many others have failed.
Best of luck and thank you for caring.

This is what I was hoping to hear, I fear that this situation has been normalised to some degree, where 2 adults no longer give enough of a **** about their child to take their issues with each other into a separate forum. It's actually considerably worse than that, I have witnessed this mother abusing her child in broad daylight when they father wasn't there and she was roaring at her child outside a shop and screaming profanities at him...

Stavro Mueller

Would it be acceptable for the OP to record the commotion and use it as evidence of just how awful it is? Or is that illegal?

beyondbelief67

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

Would it be acceptable for the OP to record the commotion and use it as evidence of just how awful it is? Or is that illegal?

I don't think that would be fair to the child to have to stay in that environment while he does that ?

Rubberchikken

in these circumstances, you have to speak up. i know i couldn't listen to a child crying in terror, the thought makes me sick tbh.

no matter what is wrong with this woman, she shouldn't be allowed to continue treating a vulnerable person in this way.
if the man is this child's father, how he can stand by and allow this to continue is also questionable.

Pawwed Rig

In reality the child will be staying in that environment for the forseeable future regardless of what the OP does.
Recordings, however, are of very little value unless you can clearly hear what is being said on them which is unlikely through the ceiling of an apartment without some very good recording equipment.

zeffabelli

Stavro Mueller wrote: »

Would it be acceptable for the OP to record the commotion and use it as evidence of just how awful it is? Or is that illegal?

You'd need to check the legalities of those on recording third parties without consent. Especially when there is a minor involved.

You'd need to prove the identities of those on the recordings also. If they deny its them then you have a problem...and all it comes down to is malicious gossip.

Stavro Mueller

Ok. It was only a thought All I can do is add to the chorus of "make that call asap". I hope something can be done.

The Princess Bride

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

In reality the child will be staying in that environment for the forseeable future regardless of what the OP does.

Not necessarily. If a Garda has reason to fear for the safety of a child, the child can immediately be removed from their environment and moved to an emergency foster home / paediatric unit.
Unfortunately, I know this from years of experience.

Not every parent is fit to take care of their child, crazy when you think of it.

zeffabelli

The Princess Bride wrote: »

Not necessarily. If a Garda has reason to fear for the safety of a child, the child can immediately be removed from their environment and moved to an emergency foster home / paediatric unit.
Unfortunately, I know this from years of experience.

Not every parent is fit to take care of their child, crazy when you think of it.

Not every government agency is either.

Kids have gone missing in the HSE system...some have died under the watch of the HSE.

Rock and a hard place.

jimmycrackcorm

op. You definitely need to call social services any this. Effectively this child has no protection unless you step in.

It's a difficult situation for social services to deal with as stated, unless the behaviour is witnessed it is difficult to prove.

I'd be recording instances to provide evidence. The most likely outcome is that the couple would get the help they need to deal with their problems so it would only help.

JillyQ

Report it to the social services. If the rows are bad enough that you feel there maybe an immediate danger to the child during one of these rows contact the Gardai

Pawwed Rig

The Princess Bride wrote: »

Not necessarily. If a Garda has reason to fear for the safety of a child, the child can immediately be removed from their environment and moved to an emergency foster home / paediatric unit.
Unfortunately, I know this from years of experience.

Not every parent is fit to take care of their child, crazy when you think of it.

There are thousands of children living in similar circumstances. I see every day mothers swearing at their kids, shouting at them dragging out of them. Unfortunately this is normality for some families in our community. This is why we end up with so many anti social children and teenagers and noone is willing to do anything about it.
A little bit of insight into our child protective services would really make you sick to your stomach when you see what 'protection' we offer as a society.

zeffabelli

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There are thousands of children living in similar circumstances. I see every day mothers swearing at their kids, shouting at them dragging out of them. Unfortunately this is normality for some families in our community. This is why we end up with so many anti social children and teenagers and noone is willing to do anything about it.
A little bit of insight into our child protective services would really make yoo sick to your stomach when you see what 'protection' we offer as a society.

That's true. It's also partially down to cultural norms within communities.

I wouldn't pin it on just the mothers though.

LordNorbury

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

In reality the child will be staying in that environment for the forseeable future regardless of what the OP does.
Recordings, however, are of very little value unless you can clearly hear what is being said on them which is unlikely through the ceiling of an apartment without some very good recording equipment.

I did think about this as an option, but it would be too big of a project for me to get into at the moment because as you've said, I would have to get specialist recording equipment, etc and I'd basically be into a surveillance operation then, you wouldn't pick up these arguments properly on an iPhone or any kind of basic sound recorder.

Another problem in terms of reporting, is that all I know about these two is their address and I know the apartment is rented as the guy who owns the apartment, who I met before as he used to live there, has now rented it out to this couple. So if I go to the cops, I know I'm probably going to be met with: "well we kinda need a name here to start with"...

bp

I would go to them personally - especially if you fear there is a threat of physical violence. Also fair play for caring - we need more like you in the world.

Tasden

LordNorbury wrote: »

Another problem in terms of reporting, is that all I know about these two is their address and I know the apartment is rented as the guy who owns the apartment, who I met before as he used to live there, has now rented it out to this couple. So if I go to the cops, I know I'm probably going to be met with: "well we kinda need a name here to start with"...

No matter what problems or issues that arise with regards to reporting this you still need to do your bit. Worst case scenario is they say they need a name and can't do anything until they know more. Best case is they're able to find out and take action. If you don't report it there is no best case scenario.

You can only do so much- report what you've heard. Once that's done it's out of your hands and in the hands of those that are trained to deal with these things and who understand the systems and limitations etc.

LordNorbury

Tasden wrote: »

No matter what problems or issues that arise with regards to reporting this you still need to do your bit. Worst case scenario is they say they need a name and can't do anything until they know more. Best case is they're able to find out and take action. If you don't report it there is no best case scenario.

You can only do so much- report what you've heard. Once that's done it's out of your hands and in the hands of those that are trained to deal with these things and who understand the systems and limitations etc.

I am reporting it tomorrow, if no action is taken, well then there is nothing I can do, and I can't think of what action that could actually be taken that might resolve this, apart from taking this woman's child into care, which is not done lightly, as I think that the woman involved here is a bad person and is an awful mother. I may be right there or I may be wrong, there may be something like post natal depression behind her behaviour, she may have coping issues or she may be just a horrible person and if I'm being honest, it is the latter I suspect to be the case, after hearing a woman verbally abuse her own child, scream and roar at her own child, scream profanities at her own child in broad daylight in the middle of the estate.

irishgirl19

My mother had bad PND after the birth of one of my siblings. She never treated any of her kids like that.
This woman is just a scumbag

Tasden

LordNorbury wrote: »

I am reporting it tomorrow, if no action is taken, well then there is nothing I can do, and I can't think of what action that could actually be taken that might resolve this, apart from taking this woman's child into care, which is not done lightly, as I think that the woman involved here is a bad person and is an awful mother. I may be right there or I may be wrong, there may be something like post natal depression behind her behaviour, she may have coping issues or she may be just a horrible person and if I'm being honest, it is the latter I suspect to be the case, after hearing a woman verbally abuse her own child, scream and roar at her own child, scream profanities at her own child in broad daylight in the middle of the estate.

Taking her kids into care is definitely not the only action that can be taken. They can offer supports, like you said pnd could be at play, she may need counselling or treatment for an undiagnosed condition, or help with the practical sides of things if she's feeling overwhelmed by it all, or a social worker can arrange for a family member to mind the child.. there are so many ways that the situation can be addressed that isn't just taking the child into care- which you're right, is not done lightly.

And none of us know what exactly is going on behind closed doors, all we can do is report it if we feel the child is being treated unfairly and let the professionals determine what needs to be done.

LegacyUser

I was that toddler,who the turned into that child and teenager who lived between two houses. Nobody made the call for me. I am now 33 and I do have resentment towards my neighbours for "looking the other way" or " not wanting to get involved". Please please call the is occ and they will guide you as to how to deal with it. The toddler years are the most forming for any person who wants to grow Into a fully functioning adult. I now deal with PTSD due to the things you talk about,I'm terrified of people and to be honest it's terrifying for a child in that situation. You seem like a good kind caring person trying to do the right thing. I wish there were more like you out there

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Flippyfloppy

Report it to the Gardai and the Hse then resort to recording in case it's not followed up on immediately.

But please report it, that poor child. Even if it is pnd it doesn't mean the little one should suffer.

Dobbit

irishgirl19 wrote: »

My mother had bad PND after the birth of one of my siblings. She never treated any of her kids like that.
This woman is just a scumbag

PND manifests in different ways, not everyone's experience of it is the same.

TizTaly2015

Please call the Gardaí. You don't have to go down to the station - these reports can be done anonomously. As many have already mentioned here, the mother and father might just need some external support. Also, their families may not know what is happening and this might bring it to their attention (for eg, a granny might be able to take child if parents cant cope). A child doesn't always have to end up in what we know as 'care'. Family can help out. There are support groups - Barnardos for eg do parenting courses. This couple might just be living so chaotically that they don't know the harm that they are doing this poor wee pet. Please keep us informed.

lukesmom

Any update did you contact social worker?