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Proposed IT Carlow/WIT Merger

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Kelly report about the viability of the merger

    education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Engagement-and-Consultation-Process-on-a-Technological-University-for-the-South-East.pdf

    Some damning stuff about WITs attitude to the whole process.

    Only coming to this thread now because it appeared on the front page. I'd agree with a lot of earlier posters and what the report has said. WIT's attitude towards the whole thing has been a disgrace. That place has had big issues for a long time. Waterford feel they are entitled to a university and yet aren't willing to work with a fellow institute to make it happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Do you disagree that the report findings are critical of WIT's approach to the process?

    I disagree with the political decision by a bombastic biased minister to force this whole "merger" or nothing else scenario in the first place, but we have an election coming and it will be like the snows of last Christmas in seven months time.
    I do not know of many shotgun weddings that survived, and that is what this is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Only coming to this thread now because it appeared on the front page. I'd agree with a lot of earlier posters and what the report has said. WIT's attitude towards the whole thing has been a disgrace. That place has had big issues for a long time. Waterford feel they are entitled to a university and yet aren't willing to work with a fellow institute to make it happen.

    Yea, there's this frankly deluded sense down there that "we are the same as Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick" hence should have everything down there and nothing else for the rest of the SE where most people actually live. Even take Wexford, it's population has surged way beyond Waterford's. The bulk of future young people for a Uni will come from outside Waterford city.
    If WIT's arrogance is anything like poster seen on here, I don't envy anyone having to work with them. It's just a militant, chip-on-shoulder unwilling to work with anyone stance that belongs in the 1970s.
    Everyone else then is "parochial" if they don't agree every single thing has a divine right to be in Waterford.


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭oscillating wildely


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    I disagree with the political decision by a bombastic biased minister to force this whole "merger" or nothing else scenario in the first place, but we have an election coming and it will be like the snows of last Christmas in seven months time.
    I do not know of many shotgun weddings that survived, and that is what this is.

    Political decisions were taken by the previous administration to favour WIT but this is being ignored, e.g. all Springboard funding for SE in 2013 went to WIT due to closure of Waterford Crystal and Talk Talk. Now that there is no sitting minister in Waterford that favouritism has gone and being replaced by practicality.

    There are also competence and CSR issues with WIT as evidenced by exorbitant expense claims and poor standard of broadband that exists. The inability of WIT to collaborate is a major stumbling block and considering collaboration is a mainstay of modern business must call into question the ethos of the governing body of WIT.

    Whether WIT like it or not IT, Carlow is the fastest growing IT in the country and has the largest Life Long Learning facility in the country despite not being funded to the same extent as WIT. These achievements have been on merit and not as a result of cronyism. I would suggest that the people of WIT consider their actions and statements carefully as they no longer has a minister to molly coddle them, indeed if WIT are not careful it may end up being IT Carlow that are the principle in the whole arrangement :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    100% agree oscillating_wildely.

    Some snippets from the Kelly report totally backing up your viewpoints.

    More specifically, the formal opening position of WIT towards this engagement process was initially hostile
    a widely-held view in WIT that they are already ‘at university level’” and a belief “ that previous commitments... had not been honoured
    In Waterford, there is a widely-felt strong sense of entitlement to a university in the city, which it was argued would also serve the needs of the wider region.
    Stakeholders from other parts of the region are quite clear that a Waterford-only solution would not meet their needs or expectations and that they wish to see a more distributed institution with direct links to all parts of the region.
    The report reflects the limitations of the process undertaken. Given the position taken by WIT, it did not prove possible to have any round-table engagement involving both Institutes as part of this process. Neither has it been possible to produce a validated set of aggregate data addressing TU Metrics, combined across both institutes.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Political decisions were taken by the previous administration to favour WIT but this is being ignored, e.g. all Springboard funding for SE in 2013 went to WIT due to closure of Waterford Crystal and Talk Talk. Now that there is no sitting minister in Waterford that favouritism has gone and being replaced by practicality.

    There are also competence and CSR issues with WIT as evidenced by exorbitant expense claims and poor standard of broadband that exists. The inability of WIT to collaborate is a major stumbling block and considering collaboration is a mainstay of modern business must call into question the ethos of the governing body of WIT.

    Whether WIT like it or not IT, Carlow is the fastest growing IT in the country and has the largest Life Long Learning facility in the country despite not being funded to the same extent as WIT. These achievements have been on merit and not as a result of cronyism. I would suggest that the people of WIT consider their actions and statements carefully as they no longer has a minister to molly coddle them, indeed if WIT are not careful it may end up being IT Carlow that are the principle in the whole arrangement :D
    Ok one question , if you think so little of WIT and carlow is doing so well why do you want to merge with them


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    Ok one question , if you think so little of WIT and carlow is doing so well why do you want to merge with them

    I doubt it's any eagerness to merge with WIT; It's the fact that the authorities that fund these institutions have explicitly stated the only way forward for a SE university is through collaboration and merger of existing ones. Carlow have accepted this, Waterford on the other hand want WIT alone for fear of sharing anything with anywhere else in the region.
    Mergers happen all the time in the private sector, my company is constantly making acquisitions and merged with others. It's just a fact of the modern world and business, there's no special case for WIT to be treated any differently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    road_high wrote: »
    I doubt it's any eagerness to merge with WIT; It's the fact that the authorities that fund these institutions have explicitly stated the only way forward for a SE university is through collaboration and merger of existing ones. Carlow have accepted this, Waterford on the other hand want WIT alone for fear of sharing anything with anywhere else in the region.
    Mergers happen all the time in the private sector, my company is constantly making acquisitions and merged with others. It's just a fact of the modern world and business, there's no special case for WIT to be treated any differently.

    But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    imacman wrote: »
    But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.

    Straw man alert.
    Nobody here referenced to WIT as anything close to a "terrible institute". Sure they had/have issues in relation to competence, CSR and financial matters (referenced earlier) but the fact of the matter is WIT are still one of the leading IOTs in the sector - nobody is denying this.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    Tbh the main elephant in the room is that Ireland really doesn't need another university. The people of Waterford merely want the name "university" in the title. They'd be far better off working to improve WIT. An IT can be a world leader and who's to say that WIT wouldn't be the best IT in Ireland right now and higher ranked than universities if they had concentrated on improving themselves rather than looking for university status?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭oscillating wildely


    imacman wrote: »
    But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.

    There are synergies to be gained from the proposed merger, e.g. WIT is better at research that Carlow but Carlow is better for life long learning. The whole area of education is extremely competitive today and we need to consolidate to compete.

    People's reluctance to pay for a proper education means our schools and universities are constantly falling down the rankings and we need to address these issues by offering higher service levels not a scattering of mediocre facilities that are good in some areas but poor in others.

    We need to put aside petty differences and perceived slights. People who are supposed to be educated need to stop acting like spoilt primary school children and see the bigger picture; a constant failure of Ireland is to think strategically and put aside this parochial small minded attitude.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Tbh the main elephant in the room is that Ireland really doesn't need another university. The people of Waterford merely want the name "university" in the title. They'd be far better off working to improve WIT. An IT can be a world leader and who's to say that WIT wouldn't be the best IT in Ireland right now and higher ranked than universities if they had concentrated on improving themselves rather than looking for university status?

    Perhaps but Im strongly of the opinion the South east needs a university. We may have too many, but they're not in the right places. Dublin area has 4 alone, the south east with over half million people has none, just the two ITs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Ferdinand von Prondzynski, Principal and Vice-Chancellor of Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen, Scotland ex DCU president

    His comments on the WIT / ITCarlow merger

    To quote

    "Michael Kelly’s report, apart from introducing the unattractive acronym TUSE for the proposed ‘technological university’, provides little evidence that a merger would advance the key quality criteria for a university; indeed the report recognises that to date collaboration between the two did not really develop because of the different nature of the two institutes and their lack of physical proximity.

    I can absolutely see the case for a University of Waterford. I can see no case for a merger between two largely incompatible institutions, one of which manifestly is not of university level standing. This policy makes no sense whatsoever."



    https://universitydiary.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/talking-points-for-heavens-sake-stop-obsessing-about-mergers/


  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    imacman wrote: »
    Boom back in your box itcarlow

    You forgot the above quote you placed in the Waterford thread.:rolleyes:

    Anyway just because some dude with numerous controversies attached to his name has some unfounded and unsubstantiated OPINION means absolutely nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    You forgot the above quote you placed in the Waterford thread.:rolleyes:

    Anyway just because some dude with numerous controversies attached to his name has some unfounded and unsubstantiated OPINION means absolutely nothing.

    Beat me to it. We can all quote random people/cranks OPINIONS that nobody has ever heard of to suit our own agenda i.e. make WIT the sole university and IT Carlow be damned. One would have to question what exactly this guys agenda really is, because at the end of the day it's nothing to do with him.
    Crucially, he doesn't fund either it, so unless he wants to personally stump up the many millions the Irish government would fund for a University, he doesn't get to decide where a SE university should/shall be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Tiresome good bye


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭McLoughlin


    If the merger leads to the Wexford Campus been developed even more then I'm all for it


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    McLoughlin wrote: »
    If the merger leads to the Wexford Campus been developed even more then I'm all for it

    Oh jasus don't let the Waterford crowd let you hear that...they don't want to share an inch of this SE University despite having a far lower and slower growing/older population than Co. Wexford.
    .... Anything not on the "right" side of the Suir is "parish pump gombeenism" but the irony of that "logic" tends to be very lost on them as they jump up and down in union inspired rage at the possibility of anywhere else in the SE (where the majority actually lives) benefitting in any way, shape or form.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭McLoughlin


    road_high wrote: »
    Oh jasus don't let the Waterford crowd let you hear that...they don't want to share an inch of this SE University despite having a far lower and slower growing/older population than Co. Wexford.
    .... Anything not on the "right" side of the Suir is "parish pump gombeenism" but the irony of that "logic" tends to be very lost on them as they jump up and down in union inspired rage at the possibility of anywhere else in the SE (where the majority actually lives) benefitting in any way, shape or form.

    True I don't think Waterford heads know about Carlow IT campus in Wicklow and Wexford


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    McLoughlin wrote: »
    True I don't think Waterford heads know about Carlow IT campus in Wicklow and Wexford

    Very clever and sensible strategy by IT Carlow to grow their student base. Wicklow and Wexford populations (136 and 146k respectively) are ripe territory for a steady stream of young people coming on stream that will be attending third level and are areas without 3rd level colleges of their own.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    Very clever and sensible strategy by IT Carlow to grow their student base. Wicklow and Wexford populations (136 and 146k respectively) are ripe territory for a steady stream of young people coming on stream that will be attending third level and are areas without 3rd level colleges of their own.


    Provided they would want to go to IT Carlow. But why would they? It is as still easier to get to Waterford than Wexford and Carlow for most of the South East population including the population of Wexford. Wicklow is firmly in Dublin's Hinterland. Wishful thinking on a grand scale to suggest Wexford is some sort of viable alternative.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    Oh jasus don't let the Waterford crowd let you hear that...they don't want to share an inch of this SE University despite having a far lower and slower growing/older population than Co. Wexford.
    .... .


    You keep coming out with this nonsense, it obviously provides you with comfort but don't shoot your bolt just yet. Half of Kilkenny's growth is in South Kilkenny around Waterford. And as for Carlow and Wexford the commuter belt population growth driven by Dublin is completely unsustainable which would not be tolerated in any other Western European Country.It is also essentially over so don't get to carried away clasping at your straws. So the sad new for you is that the key population center in the South East with sustainable growth is still Waterford and its immediate environs with the fastest growth rates in the region.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Provided they would want to go to IT Carlow. But why would they? It is as still easier to get to Waterford than Wexford for most of the South East population including the population of Wexford.

    Carlow is on the exact same M9 as Waterford :confused:. Bar areas around New Ross (the less densely populated parts) of Wexford, it's much of a muchness either to/from Carlow if not closer. The only other parts of the south east Waterford is convenient for are Co Waterford, part of south Tipp and all of south Kilkenny. Carlow wins hands down on centrality by sheer virtue of it's location as it's hinterland is also Kildare, Laois and west Wicklow all traditionally attend IT Carlow in large numbers as it's much handier than Dublin for most, despite your assertion/wish that "they wouldn't want to".


  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    Provided they would want to go to IT Carlow. But why would they? It is as still easier to get to Waterford than Wexford for most of the South East population including the population of Wexford.

    Ah jaysus Fuzzy. For the majority of people in Wexford it is easier to get to Waterford than Wexford? :eek: .

    Excluding that obvious mishap. It's obviously much of muchness. Kilkenny City and Gorey-Bunclody are closer to Carlow. The distance between Wexford Town to Carlow and Waterford are almost identical.

    But the big factor is - going to Waterford involves driving through to the the city or paying a toll on the bridge. Neither are desirable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    You keep coming out with this nonsense, it obviously provides you with comfort but don't shoot your bolt just yet. Half of Kilkenny's growth is in South Kilkenny around Waterford. And as for Carlow and Wexford the commuter belt population growth driven by Dublin is completely unsustainable which would not be tolerated in any other Western European Country.It is also essentially over so don't get to carried away clasping at your straws. So the sad new for you is that the key population center in the South East with sustainable growth is still Waterford and its immediate environs with the fastest growth rates in the region.

    In your head....news for you. These people ain't leaving or going back to Dublin as you'd dearly wish (it might make Waterford's population look somewhat respectable) . These young people have chosen to live in Wexford and Carlow NOT Waterford in any huge numbers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    Carlow is on the exact same M9 as Waterford :confused:. Bar areas around New Ross (the less densely populated parts) of Wexford, it's much of a muchness either to/from Carlow if not closer. The only other parts of the south east Waterford is convenient for are Co Waterford, part of south Tipp and all of south Kilkenny. Carlow wins hands down on centrality by sheer virtue of it's location as it's hinterland is also Kildare, Laois and west Wicklow all traditionally attend IT Carlow in large numbers as it's much handier than Dublin for most, despite your assertion/wish that "they wouldn't want to".

    Kildare is not, Never was and never will be in the Hinterland of Carlow. This is as ludicrous as saying Dublin is in the hinterland of Carlow. There are at least two towns in Kildare larger than Carlow and about four more almost the same size and Laois has its own population centres.Kildare and Wicklow are in their own distinct region which is the Greater Dublin Area. Carlow is in the South East region and is on its periphery. The substantial [part of the region is between Wexford, Kilkenny and Clonmel and Waterford is the central part of that area connecting most towns by the N25, N24 and M9. Carlow is just not comparable. You might wish Waterford did not exist and things would be different but it is not and it wouldn't be. You would just be directing your ire at someone else in the region. A good example being the way you blame South Kilkenny for electing Aylward in the Carlow/KK by election:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    road_high wrote: »
    In your head....news for you. These people ain't leaving or going back to Dublin as you'd dearly wish (it might make Waterford's population look somewhat respectable) . These young people have chosen to live in Wexford and Carlow NOT Waterford in any huge numbers.


    The didn't chose any such thing. Given half the chance they probably would move back. It's a sad indictment that you need the activity that caused the worlds worst economic crash (worst property crash in history) to push up the population of Carlow by a couple of thousand. Still less than Tramore and Ferrybank:p


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    JaCrispy wrote: »
    Ah jaysus Fuzzy. For the majority of people in Wexford it is easier to get to Waterford than Wexford? :eek: .

    Excluding that obvious mishap. It's obviously much of muchness. Kilkenny City and Gorey-Bunclody are closer to Carlow. The distance between Wexford Town to Carlow and Waterford are almost identical.

    But the big factor is - going to Waterford involves driving through to the the city or paying a toll on the bridge. Neither are desirable.

    Ah Jaysus Cripsy or whatever your calling yourself these days. The majority is not the vast majority. It is marginal and from places like Gorey and Enniscorthy not worth talking about. When new road improvements come online then Waterford will be considerably easier. And btw Waterford does not involve driving through the city. The ring road and WIT are a five minute drive from rice bridge and the toll is not prohibitive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    Bottom line is that Carlow is perfectly positioned to consistently increase its numbers year on year. Simply because of its location in the south east - a landlocked county. In direct contact with Laois - Kilkenny - Wicklow and Wexford which don't have any primary third level campus.

    Waterford is in direct conflict with Cork and their soon to be 2 Universities ;) and sits at the very bottom and most awkward area to get to for the majority of the SE population.

    And you still haven't proved how the population boom in Carlow and it's catchment (which was caused by the boom) is unsustainable. You made this claim before in the Waterford forum with absolutely no backup. Are you expecting these people to sell up and go home? Are you expecting these people not have children or something? You really make up some ridiculous straw man arguments.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JaCrispy


    ..... the toll is not prohibitive....

    20 weeks (average college term) x 10 times (a week) = 200 x €1.90 (toll fare) = €380 (ish) a year

    That's gonna be around twice the price of the standard yearly household water charges. You know the water charges - all the protests in Dublin - 1000s of people etc etc.

    €380???? Very much prohibitive.


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