Proposed IT Carlow/WIT Merger

road_high

Note there's no discussion/thread here on the proposed merger. Seen lots of opinions from Waterford but what do people in Carlow think of the proposal for a South East tech uni?
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/carlowpeople/news/wit-staff-set-to-strike-over-merger-31087994.html

PeteFalk78

I think it would be good for Carlow and ITC. If an IoT is not becoming a Technological University (TU) then they are going to be in the 3rd tier of higher education in Ireland. No IoT wants that.

WIT have belittled, disparage and denigrated all aspects of ITC over the past few months. This coming from a college who are too big for their boots. The outrageous financial discrepancies and farcical IT problems at the start of the year seem to be lost on them.
The unfortunate thing is ITC are being forced to merge with the most awkward, egotistical and conceited IoT in the whole country who think that they are entitled to become a TU solely based on the fact they've lobbied for university status since Neanderthals roamed the earth.

Seriously. I can't understand why the TUI could give a vote of no confidence in the WIT/ITC merger process whilst totally ignoring other TU mergers in other provinces.

road_high

I think it would be good for Carlow town more generally, giving it a more central role in the South east, especially as the fastest growing large urban centre in the south east.

brianblaze

road_high wrote: »

fastest growing large urban centre in the south east.

Source? Not doubting, just interested!

road_high

brianblaze wrote: »

Source? Not doubting, just interested!

Last number of census'. Taking just Carlow, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford town here as all over 20k people. Think Kilkenny might been a bit higher the last census but Carlow has grown way faster % wise through the 90s/00s. That's before you consider the enormous growth in Kildare/Wicklow/Laois which all use Carlow as a service centre.

PeteFalk78

brianblaze wrote: »

Source? Not doubting, just interested!

A few years old but ......

http://www.carlow.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publications/Carlow%20Town%20Development%20Plan/app10-population-trends.pdf

County Carlow’s population is 52,500 (2008) – an increase of 6,486 between 2002 and 2008 – over 14% increase from the Census 2002 and ahead of the national average, 10%.

road_high

I think it's wise to be putting services where people live/close to them, hand in hand with this population growth will/is more young people hence more demand for 3rd level education.

oscillating wildely

There is a lot of rubbish emanating from Waterford in terms of the academic stature of Carlow. None of it really has any credibility either as the quality of research work being done in Carlow stands up to robust examination as does the quality of most of the academic staff; all educational institutions have dinosaurs who are protect by silly union and public sector rules.

As alluded to earlier the moral highground being taken by Waterford is laughable given their internal issues and they are tryng to create a smokescreen by referring to academic performance which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

PeteFalk78

oscillating wildely wrote: »

As alluded to earlier the moral highground being taken by Waterford is laudible given their internal issues and they are tryng to create a smokescreen by referring to academic performance which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

:eek::D

road_high

oscillating wildely wrote: »

There is a lot of rubbish emanating from Waterford in terms of the academic stature of Carlow. None of it really has any credibility either as the quality of research work being done in Carlow stands up to robust examination as does the quality of most of the academic staff; all educational institutions have dinosaurs who are protect by silly union and public sector rules.

As alluded to earlier the moral highground being taken by Waterford is laudible given their internal issues and they are tryng to create a smokescreen by referring to academic performance which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Laughable?! Of course. When people take off the blue and white rose-tinted specs that is....

oscillating wildely

Oops!

Post now edited!

road_high

Company I work for merged with/took over another company before. People had to adapt on all sides coming from different ethoses and approaches, there was no petulant strikes or whining. After all, the company was paying everyone's bloody wages. If people didn't like it they knew where the door was...these are taxpayer/government funded institutions and if the
elected government decides a merger is in the best national/regional interest I fail to se how or why it should be any different.

road_high

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

A few years old but ......

http://www.carlow.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/Publications/Carlow%20Town%20Development%20Plan/app10-population-trends.pdf

Not just Carlow itself growing fast, Population of all surrounding counties to Carlow in Census 2011;

Carlow 54,612
Kildare 210,312
Kilkenny 95,419
Laois 80,559
Wexford 145,320
Wicklow 136,640

Some of the fastest growing areas all lie in Carlow's immediate catchment.

RYGCat

Interesting to note in last set of HEA stats -2013/14 - IT Carlow is the 4th biggest Institute after DIT, Cork and WIT!

imacman

oscillating wildely wrote: »

There is a lot of rubbish emanating from Waterford in terms of the academic stature of Carlow. None of it really has any credibility either as the quality of research work being done in Carlow stands up to robust examination as does the quality of most of the academic staff; all educational institutions have dinosaurs who are protect by silly union and public sector rules.

As alluded to earlier the moral highground being taken by Waterford is laughable given their internal issues and they are tryng to create a smokescreen by referring to academic performance which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Well are least waterford have put their cards on the table and pulled out .I think it's funny that carlow people bash WIT but still want to merge.You can't have it both ways lads

road_high

RYGCat wrote: »

Interesting to note in last set of HEA stats -2013/14 - IT Carlow is the 4th biggest Institute after DIT, Cork and WIT!

Is this in numbers attending? Hardly surprising given the massive population of it's catchment area.

RYGCat

road_high wrote: »

Is this in numbers attending? Hardly surprising given the massive population of it's catchment area.

Yes, student enrolments according to HEA

wellboytoo

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

I think it would be good for Carlow and ITC. If an IoT is not becoming a Technological University (TU) then they are going to be in the 3rd tier of higher education in Ireland. No IoT wants that.

WIT have belittled, disparage and denigrated all aspects of ITC over the past few months. This coming from a college who are too big for their boots. The outrageous financial discrepancies and farcical IT problems at the start of the year seem to be lost on them.
The unfortunate thing is ITC are being forced to merge with the most awkward, egotistical and conceited IoT in the whole country who think that they are entitled to become a TU solely based on the fact they've lobbied for university status since Neanderthals roamed the earth.

Seriously. I can't understand why the TUI could give a vote of no confidence in the WIT/ITC merger process whilst totally ignoring other TU mergers in other provinces.

Woo hoo I wonder what job you were refused in WIT?
Talking about putting your prejudices out first and front.
You arrived on the Waterford forum out of the blue today spewing the above invective and got the reaction one would expect.
You now are doing the same in the Carlow forum , one wonders what your agenda is?
Waterford has been lobbying for 30 years for University status, this current politically inspired idea of a forced merger is unwelcome and has been from day one.
It is dead in the water now and was the moment it was proposed ,why are you trying to paint Waterford as the bad boy?
You are either just a bitter sh1t stirrer or have an agenda that is politically motivated.
Grow up boy there are real battles to be fought out there this one is over.

PeteFalk78

imacman wrote: »

Well are least waterford have put their cards on the table and pulled out .I think it's funny that carlow people bash WIT but still want to merge.You can't have it both ways lads

I still think there may be merits in merging. The reason WIT pulled out was because they still think they can go on their own. They saw themselves as the biggest fish in a 2 fish pond, they wanted an acquisition instead of a merger.

If they climbed down off their high horse and faced reality then a merger may still be on the cards.

brianblaze

Would make more sense to form a new Kilkenny and Carlow IT in my opinion. Waterford is miles away, at least KK is closer! (and is a city with no college to speak of!)

road_high

brianblaze wrote: »

Would make more sense to form a new Kilkenny and Carlow IT in my opinion. Waterford is miles away, at least KK is closer! (and is a city with no college to speak of!)

Could be the way it's headed. Leave them to their own devices. Catchment is far too small for a university though, so like it or not Waterford will have to work within a South East framework, much as sharing anything seems to gaul an element down there. They want to be on the same status as Galway, Cork and limerick but without the population to support it.

road_high

Could Carlow look at merging with some of the Dublin Its? Far more connected to there anyhow and it's hinterland.

Loreto_girl

road_high wrote: »

Could Carlow look at merging with some of the Dublin Its? Far more connected to there anyhow and it's hinterland.

Better off looking to the midlands or Midwest? They'd be swallowed up by the DIT

Morf

brianblaze wrote: »

Would make more sense to form a new Kilkenny and Carlow IT in my opinion. Waterford is miles away, at least KK is closer! (and is a city with no college to speak of!)

NUI Maynooth already have a Kilkenny Campus (in name) and IT Carlow a Wexford one I think.

What they actually consist of I couldn't say from personal experience.

mountcisco

brianblaze wrote: »

Would make more sense to form a new Kilkenny and Carlow IT in my opinion. Waterford is miles away, at least KK is closer! (and is a city with no college to speak of!)

These mergers are not supposed to cost anything so I'd say for Kilkenny to get any kind of college John McGuinness would have to be leader of FF and they'd have to be in power or in coalition (not altogether impossible). I think a Carlow IT / DIT merger would be a good move.

brianblaze

Why bother merging really though? It's a growing college and doing well for itself, with some great facilities (Science/ Sports Science. Who needs a merge?

artanevilla

For the benefits of being a University as opposed to an IT I suppose. Ireland currently has no Technological University and in my opinion it needs one, so why not WIT/ITC?

road_high

Loreto_girl wrote: »

Better off looking to the midlands or Midwest? They'd be swallowed up by the DIT

Yea but Carlow is not well connected to Athlone or Limerick and are a lot further than Dublin or Waterford. Logistically impractical. DIT wouldn't be bad as they are the leading IT in Ireland and Carlow is far enough out of Dublin to build on it's own catchment.

road_high

mountcisco wrote: »

These mergers are not supposed to cost anything so I'd say for Kilkenny to get any kind of college John McGuinness would have to be leader of FF and they'd have to be in power or in coalition (not altogether impossible). I think a Carlow IT / DIT merger would be a good move.

He might be leader of FF soon but is not going to be Taoiseach anytime soon so I don't think that will have any impact.
You'd imagine there should be savings ultimately by merging, but this is the public service I suppose.

JaCrispy

Kelly report about the viability of the merger

education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Engagement-and-Consultation-Process-on-a-Technological-University-for-the-South-East.pdf

Some damning stuff about WITs attitude to the whole process.

oscillating wildely

*MOD SNIP*
Do you disagree that the report findings are critical of WIT's approach to the process?

GoldFour4

JaCrispy wrote: »

Kelly report about the viability of the merger

education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/Engagement-and-Consultation-Process-on-a-Technological-University-for-the-South-East.pdf

Some damning stuff about WITs attitude to the whole process.

Only coming to this thread now because it appeared on the front page. I'd agree with a lot of earlier posters and what the report has said. WIT's attitude towards the whole thing has been a disgrace. That place has had big issues for a long time. Waterford feel they are entitled to a university and yet aren't willing to work with a fellow institute to make it happen.

wellboytoo

oscillating wildely wrote: »

Do you disagree that the report findings are critical of WIT's approach to the process?

I disagree with the political decision by a bombastic biased minister to force this whole "merger" or nothing else scenario in the first place, but we have an election coming and it will be like the snows of last Christmas in seven months time.
I do not know of many shotgun weddings that survived, and that is what this is.

road_high

malistheman wrote: »

Only coming to this thread now because it appeared on the front page. I'd agree with a lot of earlier posters and what the report has said. WIT's attitude towards the whole thing has been a disgrace. That place has had big issues for a long time. Waterford feel they are entitled to a university and yet aren't willing to work with a fellow institute to make it happen.

Yea, there's this frankly deluded sense down there that "we are the same as Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick" hence should have everything down there and nothing else for the rest of the SE where most people actually live. Even take Wexford, it's population has surged way beyond Waterford's. The bulk of future young people for a Uni will come from outside Waterford city.
If WIT's arrogance is anything like poster seen on here, I don't envy anyone having to work with them. It's just a militant, chip-on-shoulder unwilling to work with anyone stance that belongs in the 1970s.
Everyone else then is "parochial" if they don't agree every single thing has a divine right to be in Waterford.

oscillating wildely

wellboytoo wrote: »

I disagree with the political decision by a bombastic biased minister to force this whole "merger" or nothing else scenario in the first place, but we have an election coming and it will be like the snows of last Christmas in seven months time.
I do not know of many shotgun weddings that survived, and that is what this is.

Political decisions were taken by the previous administration to favour WIT but this is being ignored, e.g. all Springboard funding for SE in 2013 went to WIT due to closure of Waterford Crystal and Talk Talk. Now that there is no sitting minister in Waterford that favouritism has gone and being replaced by practicality.

There are also competence and CSR issues with WIT as evidenced by exorbitant expense claims and poor standard of broadband that exists. The inability of WIT to collaborate is a major stumbling block and considering collaboration is a mainstay of modern business must call into question the ethos of the governing body of WIT.

Whether WIT like it or not IT, Carlow is the fastest growing IT in the country and has the largest Life Long Learning facility in the country despite not being funded to the same extent as WIT. These achievements have been on merit and not as a result of cronyism. I would suggest that the people of WIT consider their actions and statements carefully as they no longer has a minister to molly coddle them, indeed if WIT are not careful it may end up being IT Carlow that are the principle in the whole arrangement

JaCrispy

100% agree oscillating_wildely.

Some snippets from the Kelly report totally backing up your viewpoints.

More specifically, the formal opening position of WIT towards this engagement process was initially hostile

a widely-held view in WIT that they are already ‘at university level’” and a belief “ that previous commitments... had not been honoured

In Waterford, there is a widely-felt strong sense of entitlement to a university in the city, which it was argued would also serve the needs of the wider region.

Stakeholders from other parts of the region are quite clear that a Waterford-only solution would not meet their needs or expectations and that they wish to see a more distributed institution with direct links to all parts of the region.

The report reflects the limitations of the process undertaken. Given the position taken by WIT, it did not prove possible to have any round-table engagement involving both Institutes as part of this process. Neither has it been possible to produce a validated set of aggregate data addressing TU Metrics, combined across both institutes.

imacman

oscillating wildely wrote: »

Political decisions were taken by the previous administration to favour WIT but this is being ignored, e.g. all Springboard funding for SE in 2013 went to WIT due to closure of Waterford Crystal and Talk Talk. Now that there is no sitting minister in Waterford that favouritism has gone and being replaced by practicality.

There are also competence and CSR issues with WIT as evidenced by exorbitant expense claims and poor standard of broadband that exists. The inability of WIT to collaborate is a major stumbling block and considering collaboration is a mainstay of modern business must call into question the ethos of the governing body of WIT.

Whether WIT like it or not IT, Carlow is the fastest growing IT in the country and has the largest Life Long Learning facility in the country despite not being funded to the same extent as WIT. These achievements have been on merit and not as a result of cronyism. I would suggest that the people of WIT consider their actions and statements carefully as they no longer has a minister to molly coddle them, indeed if WIT are not careful it may end up being IT Carlow that are the principle in the whole arrangement

Ok one question , if you think so little of WIT and carlow is doing so well why do you want to merge with them

road_high

imacman wrote: »

Ok one question , if you think so little of WIT and carlow is doing so well why do you want to merge with them

I doubt it's any eagerness to merge with WIT; It's the fact that the authorities that fund these institutions have explicitly stated the only way forward for a SE university is through collaboration and merger of existing ones. Carlow have accepted this, Waterford on the other hand want WIT alone for fear of sharing anything with anywhere else in the region.
Mergers happen all the time in the private sector, my company is constantly making acquisitions and merged with others. It's just a fact of the modern world and business, there's no special case for WIT to be treated any differently.

imacman

road_high wrote: »

I doubt it's any eagerness to merge with WIT; It's the fact that the authorities that fund these institutions have explicitly stated the only way forward for a SE university is through collaboration and merger of existing ones. Carlow have accepted this, Waterford on the other hand want WIT alone for fear of sharing anything with anywhere else in the region.
Mergers happen all the time in the private sector, my company is constantly making acquisitions and merged with others. It's just a fact of the modern world and business, there's no special case for WIT to be treated any differently.

But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.

JaCrispy

imacman wrote: »

But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.

Straw man alert.
Nobody here referenced to WIT as anything close to a "terrible institute". Sure they had/have issues in relation to competence, CSR and financial matters (referenced earlier) but the fact of the matter is WIT are still one of the leading IOTs in the sector - nobody is denying this.

GoldFour4

Tbh the main elephant in the room is that Ireland really doesn't need another university. The people of Waterford merely want the name "university" in the title. They'd be far better off working to improve WIT. An IT can be a world leader and who's to say that WIT wouldn't be the best IT in Ireland right now and higher ranked than universities if they had concentrated on improving themselves rather than looking for university status?

oscillating wildely

imacman wrote: »

But surely if WIT is such a terrible institute any merger would weaken carlow and it would go from the fastest growing IOT to a compromised disfunctional TU with bad blood between both campuses.

There are synergies to be gained from the proposed merger, e.g. WIT is better at research that Carlow but Carlow is better for life long learning. The whole area of education is extremely competitive today and we need to consolidate to compete.

People's reluctance to pay for a proper education means our schools and universities are constantly falling down the rankings and we need to address these issues by offering higher service levels not a scattering of mediocre facilities that are good in some areas but poor in others.

We need to put aside petty differences and perceived slights. People who are supposed to be educated need to stop acting like spoilt primary school children and see the bigger picture; a constant failure of Ireland is to think strategically and put aside this parochial small minded attitude.

road_high

malistheman wrote: »

Tbh the main elephant in the room is that Ireland really doesn't need another university. The people of Waterford merely want the name "university" in the title. They'd be far better off working to improve WIT. An IT can be a world leader and who's to say that WIT wouldn't be the best IT in Ireland right now and higher ranked than universities if they had concentrated on improving themselves rather than looking for university status?

Perhaps but Im strongly of the opinion the South east needs a university. We may have too many, but they're not in the right places. Dublin area has 4 alone, the south east with over half million people has none, just the two ITs.

imacman

Ferdinand von Prondzynski, Principal and Vice-Chancellor of Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen, Scotland ex DCU president

His comments on the WIT / ITCarlow merger

To quote

"Michael Kelly’s report, apart from introducing the unattractive acronym TUSE for the proposed ‘technological university’, provides little evidence that a merger would advance the key quality criteria for a university; indeed the report recognises that to date collaboration between the two did not really develop because of the different nature of the two institutes and their lack of physical proximity.

I can absolutely see the case for a University of Waterford. I can see no case for a merger between two largely incompatible institutions, one of which manifestly is not of university level standing. This policy makes no sense whatsoever."



https://universitydiary.wordpress.com/2015/08/05/talking-points-for-heavens-sake-stop-obsessing-about-mergers/

JaCrispy

imacman wrote: »

Boom back in your box itcarlow

You forgot the above quote you placed in the Waterford thread.:rolleyes:

Anyway just because some dude with numerous controversies attached to his name has some unfounded and unsubstantiated OPINION means absolutely nothing.

road_high

JaCrispy wrote: »

You forgot the above quote you placed in the Waterford thread.:rolleyes:

Anyway just because some dude with numerous controversies attached to his name has some unfounded and unsubstantiated OPINION means absolutely nothing.

Beat me to it. We can all quote random people/cranks OPINIONS that nobody has ever heard of to suit our own agenda i.e. make WIT the sole university and IT Carlow be damned. One would have to question what exactly this guys agenda really is, because at the end of the day it's nothing to do with him.
Crucially, he doesn't fund either it, so unless he wants to personally stump up the many millions the Irish government would fund for a University, he doesn't get to decide where a SE university should/shall be.

wellboytoo

Tiresome good bye

McLoughlin

If the merger leads to the Wexford Campus been developed even more then I'm all for it

road_high

McLoughlin wrote: »

If the merger leads to the Wexford Campus been developed even more then I'm all for it

Oh jasus don't let the Waterford crowd let you hear that...they don't want to share an inch of this SE University despite having a far lower and slower growing/older population than Co. Wexford.
.... Anything not on the "right" side of the Suir is "parish pump gombeenism" but the irony of that "logic" tends to be very lost on them as they jump up and down in union inspired rage at the possibility of anywhere else in the SE (where the majority actually lives) benefitting in any way, shape or form.

McLoughlin

road_high wrote: »

Oh jasus don't let the Waterford crowd let you hear that...they don't want to share an inch of this SE University despite having a far lower and slower growing/older population than Co. Wexford.
.... Anything not on the "right" side of the Suir is "parish pump gombeenism" but the irony of that "logic" tends to be very lost on them as they jump up and down in union inspired rage at the possibility of anywhere else in the SE (where the majority actually lives) benefitting in any way, shape or form.

True I don't think Waterford heads know about Carlow IT campus in Wicklow and Wexford

road_high

McLoughlin wrote: »

True I don't think Waterford heads know about Carlow IT campus in Wicklow and Wexford

Very clever and sensible strategy by IT Carlow to grow their student base. Wicklow and Wexford populations (136 and 146k respectively) are ripe territory for a steady stream of young people coming on stream that will be attending third level and are areas without 3rd level colleges of their own.