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The Independents in governement - why not?
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nice_guy80 wrote: »It'd be nice to have a group of TDs who are able to think for themselves without the restraint of the party whip system.
I detest it when people come out and decry the whip system, because it betrays their fundamental lack of understanding about the parliamentary system. Under the current system of government (and pretty much any system of government which relies on a representative body) the whip is pretty much necessary to ensure that a ruling party in parliament manages to get anything done.
The UK didn't have a whipping system until Parnell invented it for the Irish Nationalist party. Prior to his intervention, a political party in Westminster was a very loose group of vaguely like minded people who voted together on some issues, had to be heavily bribed to vote on other issues (the UK parliament was massively corrupt for most of its existence, with plum jobs carrying high salaries and much opportunity for peculation, peerages and land grants being given for votes openly in parliament) and flat out wouldn't vote on more (even if they had originally agreed to vote that way when joining the party). Members crossed the benches on the most trivial of reasons, often switching between Whig and Tory many times over their parliamentary career. However, that all changed almost overnight when the Nationalists became a force to be reckoned with when looking for votes, the two main parties the Conservatives and the Liberals almost immediately adopting the same whipping system, because it was so damned effective at keeping their people in line.
And the last argument "but it doesn't allow my TD to vote to their conscience" is so bloody ridiculous that it barely merits rebuttal. But here goes, if they knew the party had policies incompatible with their conscience why did they join, of if adopted after joining why didn't they resign? The fact of the matter is that "votes of conscience" are all too often made by a politician not in the national interest but to pander to a constituency of voters they believe they can capture or to ensure the groups throwing money at them keep doing so, and has sweet fanny adams to do with what their conscience tells them.
If you want to rail against the current system, why not look at actual problems with it, like nepotism within parties and constituencies, the lack of accountability for parties to keep to their promises, or worst of all the total capture of political systems by big business through blanket funding of parties, provision of people to high state positions (think of all the accountants from the big four or consultants from the likes of Arthur Anderson Accenture or McKinsey {or in Ireland their Irish equivalents} who have been seconded to head up departments or money-spending quangos for five years only to give all their money to their private sector employers and their clients and go back to them when the contract is up)? These are serious problems facing the world's parliamentary systems (not just Ireland's) which if not remedied will lead to utter disaster. The whip manufactorversy is simply a three card monte pulled on us by those in power to distract from the real problems with politics.0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »I detest it when people come out and decry the whip system, because it betrays their fundamental lack of understanding about the parliamentary system. Under the current system of government (and pretty much any system of government which relies on a representative body) the whip is pretty much necessary to ensure that a ruling party in parliament manages to get anything done.
The UK didn't have a whipping system until Parnell invented it for the Irish Nationalist party. Prior to his intervention, a political party in Westminster was a very loose group of vaguely like minded people who voted together on some issues, had to be heavily bribed to vote on other issues (the UK parliament was massively corrupt for most of its existence, with plum jobs carrying high salaries and much opportunity for peculation, peerages and land grants being given for votes openly in parliament) and flat out wouldn't vote on more (even if they had originally agreed to vote that way when joining the party). Members crossed the benches on the most trivial of reasons, often switching between Whig and Tory many times over their parliamentary career. However, that all changed almost overnight when the Nationalists became a force to be reckoned with when looking for votes, the two main parties the Conservatives and the Liberals almost immediately adopting the same whipping system, because it was so damned effective at keeping their people in line.
And the last argument "but it doesn't allow my TD to vote to their conscience" is so bloody ridiculous that it barely merits rebuttal. But here goes, if they knew the party had policies incompatible with their conscience why did they join, of if adopted after joining why didn't they resign? The fact of the matter is that "votes of conscience" are all too often made by a politician not in the national interest but to pander to a constituency of voters they believe they can capture or to ensure the groups throwing money at them keep doing so, and has sweet fanny adams to do with what their conscience tells them.
If you want to rail against the current system, why not look at actual problems with it, like nepotism within parties and constituencies, the lack of accountability for parties to keep to their promises, or worst of all the total capture of political systems by big business through blanket funding of parties, provision of people to high state positions (think of all the accountants from the big four or consultants from the likes of Arthur Anderson Accenture or McKinsey {or in Ireland their Irish equivalents} who have been seconded to head up departments or money-spending quangos for five years only to give all their money to their private sector employers and their clients and go back to them when the contract is up)? These are serious problems facing the world's parliamentary systems (not just Ireland's) which if not remedied will lead to utter disaster. The whip manufactorversy is simply a three card monte pulled on us by those in power to distract from the real problems with politics.
Not every country has a whip system.
Belgium didn't even have a government for over a year and still trundled along without major incident0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »Not every country has a whip system.
Belgium didn't even have a government for over a year and still trundled along without major incident
What countries don't have it? Google didn't reveal much.0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »Not every country has a whip system.
Belgium didn't even have a government for over a year and still trundled along without major incident
Any stable democracy with an efficient civil service should be able to "trundle along" for a period - assuming there are no crises to be addressed or new polcy directions to be decided.
Our politicians stand for election on a combination of party manifesto/track record and personal/local issues. The balance between these factors varies case by case. But tolerating or accommodating the Tony Gregorys or Jackie H-Rs of this world is a luxury only made possible by robust and effective government.0 -
Isn't the whip system just putting an official stamp on what happens naturally in politics anyway, or indeed in any sphere of life.
If me and you are both independents (me urban, you rural) I may happily vote for more rural industrial investment but only if you also vote for my increased subsidy for Dublin public transport systems. Working together we can come up with a financial plan that enables both projects.
But if however you just want the rural investment but are going to vote no to the transport subsidy then you can consider our voting bloc ceased, and in order to protect the finances of my project I will have to vote against yours as there is only so much money to go around. In effect I'd have lost the whip of our bloc.
So it becomes clear in realpolitik that in order to get some of your own favoured things passed, you will have to support many things to which you are opposed. Are you willing to do that OP?0 -
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nice_guy80 wrote: »Not every country has a whip system.
Belgium didn't even have a government for over a year and still trundled along without major incident
Yes, they were very lucky that nothing happened when they had no government and their civil service was effectively paralyzed which would have cause Belgium trouble.
And the moment that the Euro financial crisis looke to be heading Belgium's way they managed to form a coalition. So your analogy is as useless and devoid of any appreciation of the situation as your original proposition.0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »Yes, they were very lucky that nothing happened when they had no government and their civil service was effectively paralyzed which would have cause Belgium trouble.
And the moment that the Euro financial crisis looke to be heading Belgium's way they managed to form a coalition. So your analogy is as useless and devoid of any appreciation of the situation as your original proposition.
What of his first point, there? Are countries without a whip system falling apart?0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »I also realised I spelled the thread title incorrectly!
My point about rural issues, is that most independents are from rural constituencies. The Independent TDs from urban constituencies are well able to air their own issues, as part of a group.
People living in and around Dublin are totally insulated from what is happening in rural Ireland at the moment.
Towns and villages are dying on their feet as all the young people have left for urban Ireland. There are no jobs.
Shops closing, reduced economic activity, banks closing down, people have to drive 25 mins to get to a bank, little house building, schools emptying, sports clubs struggling to field teams.
Could they be any worse than some of the recent parties who have been in government?
A Cabinet with one or two independent TDs in it would be very interesting.
I'd really like to see them tackle government appointees to state boards and other organisations
Re: rural Ireland.
This rural-to-urban shift is happening across the entire world and is neither new nor unique to Ireland. Rural areas will always be good for employment in agriculture, teaching and small-scale employers like shops, mechanics, fuel distributors and, to an extent, construction. But if you don't want to work in those areas, you will likely need to move to an urban centre. This has always been the way of things.
Young, ambitious, educated people do not want to stay in rural areas. They vote with their feet and move to urban areas where there are more opportunities, more entertainment and more room for socialising and meeting a partner. Rural areas cannot compete with this. The government cannot force high-end industries to locate in a small town in the west of Ireland, where young people simply do not want to live and where there are few opportunities in life.
And what's more - rural areas expect that they can buy a nice, big house for half or a third the price they would pay for a similar house in Cork or Dublin, and that they will nonetheless have the same level of urban conveniences that can only be provided with the economies of scale that exist in urban areas. If you live in rural areas, you have a lower cost of living and housing, but that is accompanied by a lower level of public and private services and economic opportunities. This is self-evident and should not be a surprise to anyone.
Also, I grew up in the open countryside of rural Ireland, FYI.0 -
HooleyBooley wrote: »Re: rural Ireland.
This rural-to-urban shift is happening across the entire world and is neither new nor unique to Ireland. Rural areas will always be good for employment in agriculture, teaching and small-scale employers like shops, mechanics, fuel distributors and, to an extent, construction. But if you don't want to work in those areas, you will likely need to move to an urban centre. This has always been the way of things.
Young, ambitious, educated people do not want to stay in rural areas. They vote with their feet and move to urban areas where there are more opportunities, more entertainment and more room for socialising and meeting a partner. Rural areas cannot compete with this. The government cannot force high-end industries to locate in a small town in the west of Ireland, where young people simply do not want to live and where there are few opportunities in life.
And what's more - rural areas expect that they can buy a nice, big house for half or a third the price they would pay for a similar house in Cork or Dublin, and that they will nonetheless have the same level of urban conveniences that can only be provided with the economies of scale that exist in urban areas. If you live in rural areas, you have a lower cost of living and housing, but that is accompanied by a lower level of public and private services and economic opportunities. This is self-evident and should not be a surprise to anyone.
Also, I grew up in the open countryside of rural Ireland, FYI.
a lot of people also want the opportunity to move back to rural areas for employment and rearing families.
economic policies are so heavily weighted in favour of the large urban centres (especially IDA investment) that government policy is adding to drain of rural Ireland.
look at the credit card company that was in Carrick on Shannon, due partly to IDA investment.
a lot of people made decisions to locate to Leitrim, Roscommon etc and buy houses.
once they upped sticks out of the town, the whole region has been affected0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »a lot of people also want the opportunity to move back to rural areas for employment and rearing families.
economic policies are so heavily weighted in favour of the large urban centres (especially IDA investment) that government policy is adding to drain of rural Ireland.
look at the credit card company that was in Carrick on Shannon, due partly to IDA investment.
a lot of people made decisions to locate to Leitrim, Roscommon etc and buy houses.
once they upped sticks out of the town, the whole region has been affected
You are wrong about IDA "weighting" in favour of large urban areas. It is the exact opposite - investors are offerered extra inducements to locate in more remote and rural areas. But it is the investor who decides what is best for them.0 -
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You are wrong about IDA "weighting" in favour of large urban areas. It is the exact opposite - investors are offerered extra inducements to locate in more remote and rural areas. But it is the investor who decides what is best for them.
Exactly.
And despite the inducements, companies still choose to locate in urban areas, where they have a wider pool of potential employees to choose from and better public and private services available to the company and it's employees.
Even something as simple as needing a photocopier repaired or a taxi or catering for an after-hours event - in a city, you can have that arranged in no time. That simply isn't possible in smaller towns or in the open countryside.
It's not a conspiracy against rural Ireland- it's economic reality, here and internationally.
What policies would you want implemented to help revive rural Ireland?0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »Not every country has a whip system.
Could you provide us with a list of these countries?
Offhand, the only institution I can think which comes close is the European Parliament which has a very weak system where the parties recommend positions - positions which MEPs tend to follow in 95% of the cases for the larger parties (which are the primary decision makers for the legislation the EP votes on).0 -
The relatively low key launch of the new 'party' of Independents the other day was a strange affair.
They aren't a party as such, so what are they, a network?
How are they stronger together, what are they together on? They stretch quite a way across the political landscape from Ross to John Halligan to Michael Fitzmaurice.
After Fitzmaurice was elected in the byelection following there was a lot of media coverage of his being something new, something different from party politics, something different from so-called 'civil war politics'.
I couldn't wait to hear what this messiah had to say, what he stood for. There was talk that he was being courted by all from Lucinda to Shane.
A couple of weeks ago he was a guest on Claire Byrne's or Marian's radio show. He sounded like a big man with a big voice. That was about it.
He was discussing potential sale of Aer Lingus.
He was talking waffly talk, politician like, no particularly intelligent,
I didn't hear anything new or different or exciting, just a big man with a big voice, no leadership qualities per se.
In recent years there have been media reports of the creation of a new pol party, Fintan O'Toole, Eamonn Dunphy, Shane Ross, David McWilliams were all mentioned in this area before the last General Election.
An end to 'Civil War politics', a bright new dawn.... was how this was being cast.
Is this not-a-party party of Independents the fulfillment of this dream.
Will they be stronger apart or better together. Will people vote for Independent candidates who are aligned.0 -
The relatively low key launch of the new 'party' of Independents the other day was a strange affair.
They aren't a party as such, so what are they, a network?
How are they stronger together, what are they together on? They stretch quite a way across the political landscape from Ross to John Halligan to Michael Fitzmaurice.
After Fitzmaurice was elected in the byelection following there was a lot of media coverage of his being something new, something different from party politics, something different from so-called 'civil war politics'.
I couldn't wait to hear what this messiah had to say, what he stood for. There was talk that he was being courted by all from Lucinda to Shane.
A couple of weeks ago he was a guest on Claire Byrne's or Marian's radio show. He sounded like a big man with a big voice. That was about it.
He was discussing potential sale of Aer Lingus.
He was talking waffly talk, politician like, no particularly intelligent,
I didn't hear anything new or different or exciting, just a big man with a big voice, no leadership qualities per se.
In recent years there have been media reports of the creation of a new pol party, Fintan O'Toole, Eamonn Dunphy, Shane Ross, David McWilliams were all mentioned in this area before the last General Election.
An end to 'Civil War politics', a bright new dawn.... was how this was being cast.
Is this not-a-party party of Independents the fulfillment of this dream.
Will they be stronger apart or better together. Will people vote for Independent candidates who are aligned.
Oh the irony.0 -
New TD in talking waffle shocker.
As a business man, who actually runs his own business and employs people he's probably more qualified to talk about that than most TDs0 -
If you see someone walking through Donnybrook with his head under his arm, that will be Shane Ross. He has just been thoroughly filleted by Sean O'Rourke.0
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good to see RTE going to town on new parties
they did the same to Renua the other week0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »good to see RTE going to town on new parties
they did the same to Renua the other week
O'Rourke just asked him the obvious questions and Ross floundered hopelessly. He ended up talking pure nonsense and contradicting himself.0 -
What of his first point, there? Are countries without a whip system falling apart?
Sheesh. That's the point. Belgium is literally at risk of falling apart between the Flanders and Wallonia is well known.0 -
HooleyBooley wrote: »Re: rural Ireland.
This rural-to-urban shift is happening across the entire world and is neither new nor unique to Ireland.................................................................................This is self-evident and should not be a surprise to anyone.
Also, I grew up in the open countryside of rural Ireland, FYI.
This * 1000. I live in the countryside and am from the countryside and fed-up with the whinging set who think the Governments job is to turn back time. If anything Ireland is a decade or two behind other countries in rural depopulation.
That being said it might be helpful if rural communities did not insist on ribbon developments or once of housing that guarantee that the towns and villages are unsustainable along with public transport. Most of the issues in rural locations have been created by rural inhabitants consistently making bad planning choices and forcing their political representation to aide and abet them.0 -
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Could you provide us with a list of these countries?
Offhand, the only institution I can think which comes close is the European Parliament which has a very weak system where the parties recommend positions - positions which MEPs tend to follow in 95% of the cases for the larger parties (which are the primary decision makers for the legislation the EP votes on).
A lot of these arguments are disingenuous because they don't take account of other factors in other democracies. Ireland has an extremely strong whip BECAUSE we have an over-representative political system (high political to population ratio) which leads to a lot of populism and localism. The Whip is a response to that.
You will find that countries with very different political systems have less of an emphasis on whipping or none because of their configuration. For example Belgium like a lot of Continental countries have list systems insulating politicians from localism and the threat of deselection. Belgium is an interesting example as the power of parties is so strong they have a name for it - Particracy
Those calling for reform need to understand why the system is the way it is first. Because like everything - you can make it worse.0 -
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nice_guy80 wrote: »Ireland is not NZ. Much bigger country, less populated, much more rural/urban divide
Lack of access to banks is a huge issue.
How can people start new businesses or get access to credit and deposit small business takings if they don't have a bank nearby?
Businesses are dying on their feet from lack of credit and investment funds.
The rates charged by local councils are also exorbitant and a huge deterrent to business start ups.
County councils are inefficient models of local government and need huge reform.
There is no real input from locally elected councillors as to where money is spent in council budgets. This has to change.
Have you not heard of online banking?
20km is nothing to travel to get a business loan.
Small business takings? So small cash businesses? I thought we were talking about new businesses not a couple of sweet shops selling to locals.
Rates charged by councils are exorbitant because they have no other funding source..... and reform is important but......
Water charges which will reduce rates (burden of water charges moved to households) resisted tooth and nail by "local" populist politicians.
Local politicians in general oppose merging of country councils.
Local politicians in general oppose developments like pylons for better distribution of power across the country.
TBH your cure will make things worse...0 -
Have you not heard of online banking?
20km is nothing to travel to get a business loan.
Small business takings? So small cash businesses? I thought we were talking about new businesses not a couple of sweet shops selling to locals.
Rates charged by councils are exorbitant because they have no other funding source..... and reform is important but......
Water charges which will reduce rates (burden of water charges moved to households) resisted tooth and nail by "local" populist politicians.
Local politicians in general oppose merging of country councils.
Local politicians in general oppose developments like pylons for better distribution of power across the country.
TBH your cure will make things worse...
You sir, haven't a clue about business in small towns.
what do filling stations, supermarkets, clothes shops, pharmacies, hardware stores etc do with their takings every day/week? They cannot keep them in the shop.
Most rural areas have their own water schemes already and are paying for them, and so are generally not really opposed to water charges. What they are opposed to is the behemoth that is becoming Irish Water and the failure to ensure that water will be delivered for the lower price possible.
I think most of the opposition is coming from urban working class areas and the left leaning parties.
Councils are meant to now be funded from local property taxes.
There are businesses closing in rural and urban towns due to the rates charged.
would you like giant pylons going past your house, child's school? They can be put underground. future generations will thank us.
local politicians of all parties have opposed merging of county councils. so I don't see what that has to do with Independents.0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »would you like giant pylons going past your house, child's school? They can be put underground. future generations will thank us.
Thank us for saddling them with a more expensive, less reliable grid because of "concerns" that amount to little more than superstition?
I doubt it.0 -
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nice_guy80 wrote: »People living in and around Dublin are totally insulated from what is happening in rural Ireland at the moment.
[...]banks closing down, people have to drive 25 mins to get to a bank...
Seriously? I've worked at several places in suburban Dublin where going to the bank at lunchtime would be a one hour round trip. I don't see anyone calling on the government to do anything about it though.0 -
Independents are all either one trick ponies with one main agenda and vote platform or else as mad as a hatter, a tree hugging way far left loony, a pot smoking super villain or a grubby ex developer with the nuttiest of agendas and more interest in CIA rendition flights than actually doing anything constructive. as far as i can see anyway.
Ultimately i'm disenchanted by the selection of options available so it will be FG again, they have been bad at times, but not as horrendous (for me anyway) as they seem to have been for others, hmm... maybe some FF heads, but ultimately not labor and ultimately ... if there were no other party, id still vote ABSF , because well.... they are just too messed up with a far too checkered past and are more or less run by a dictator who refuses to step down AND blatantly they are the ultimate double talkers.0 -
nice_guy80 wrote: »You sir, haven't a clue about business in small towns.
what do filling stations, supermarkets, clothes shops, pharmacies, hardware stores etc do with their takings every day/week? They cannot keep them in the shop.
Given I live in a rural area I do. Again you seem to believe that all rural inhabitants share your opinion. We do not.
Plenty keep them in safes and drop off once or twice a week. I suspect there is no rural location except for some wilds in Donegal, West Cork that are more then 25km from a bank. Cards are taking over the bulk of payments. It's not a serious issue and certainly not a reason businesses are shutting down. Show me a quote from a business man who says they shut down because the commute to the bank was too much.nice_guy80 wrote: »Most rural areas have their own water schemes already and are paying for them, and so are generally not really opposed to water charges. What they are opposed to is the behemoth that is becoming Irish Water and the failure to ensure that water will be delivered for the lower price possible.
I think most of the opposition is coming from urban working class areas and the left leaning parties.
Most rural Towns and Villages are on public supplies. Simply not true to imply that everyone outside of a city is drawing water.
I entirely reject your view that IW is a behemoth or anything of the like. I've seen no evidence that IW is any more costly then it's equivalent anywhere else in Europe and plenty of evidence it will be far more efficient then the current system.
So I guess there was no resistance when the Govt. introduced septic tank charges then? An appalling rural campaign by those who could not care less that their tanks were leaking into their neighbours water supply. I remember having some sharp exchanges with the usual local suspects who were agin it.
This thread is about a vague notion that more independents would be better for rural Ireland. Show me one Independent that was for Property Charges.... As far as I can see they all opposed them.nice_guy80 wrote: »Councils are meant to now be funded from local property taxes.
There are businesses closing in rural and urban towns due to the rates charged.
They could - who is going to pay for that? Should we tax local businesses to pay for this? I grew up with pylons less then 50 ft away. Nobody "wants" pylons but if locals like you make it cost prohibitive to have reliable power in the hinterlands then don't complain when businesses don't appear.nice_guy80 wrote: »would you like giant pylons going past your house, child's school? They can be put underground. future generations will thank us.
The level of fear mongering and lies by the anti pylon crowd is key to why I don't like independents. A giant billboard (eyesore in itself) nearby has mockup of a pylon. If the wires were as thick as they are on the billboard they'd be a metre thick. Laughably there are pylons nearby that nobody notices because you know what - people get used to them. A bit like Silage. Which makes me think a lot of the people opposing this stuff aren't working country but people who have come for the view.
Whipped Politicians can be pushed to do things that are unpalatable for themselves in the short-term. Independents will do whatever is opportune.nice_guy80 wrote: »local politicians of all parties have opposed merging of county councils. so I don't see what that has to do with Independents.0 -
I was contrasting the trumpeting of Fitzmaurice as being new/fresh/visionary with the reality.nice_guy80 wrote: »New TD in talking waffle shocker.
As a business man, who actually runs his own business and employs people he's probably more qualified to talk about that than most TDs
I'm not familiar with the guy other than the media since his election. His business acumen wasn't highlighted in any interviews I heard him in.0 -
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I was contrasting the trumpeting of Fitzmaurice as being new/fresh/visionary with the reality.
I'm not familiar with the guy other than the media since his election. His business acumen wasn't highlighted in any interviews I heard him in.
Fitzmaurice runs a plant hire business which rents out plant to "traditional" turf cutters who strip mine our priceless and irreplaceable raised bogs. He is without doubt the worst TD in Dail Eireann and a disgrace on every single person who voted him in. Worse then Liam Lawlor. Worse then Lowry. Worse then Ahern. Worse then any Kerry Politician. We can't undo what he has helped do to our environment.
I honestly think Environmental Terrorism should be legislated for and severely.0
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