The Independents in governement - why not?

nice_guy80

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/independents-alliance-keeping-options-open-ahead-of-election-1.2157399

It'd be nice to have a group of TDs who are able to think for themselves without the restraint of the party whip system.

They might actually think beyond 'party lines' on many issues and come up with some alternative ideas, which are badly needed at the moment in terms of
rural issues - farming and housing
job creation outside of Dublin
education investment

Anything that represents an alternative to the main parties is to be welcomed.

However, prepare for a lot of sneering from the core media and established political parties.

Fr Tod Umptious

Well the problem is in your opening line, "they think for themselves".

By virtue of being independent they only have their own voters needs to look out for.

So if solving thar rural issue comes at the expense of an urban issue they you have an empass.

Nothing would get done.

I'm voting for my local FG TD next year, not because I think he is a great politician, but because I want to see FG back in power as they are doing a good job.

First Up

nice_guy80 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/independents-alliance-keeping-options-open-ahead-of-election-1.2157399

It'd be nice to have a group of TDs who are able to think for themselves without the restraint of the party whip system.

They might actually think beyond 'party lines' on many issues and come up with some alternative ideas, which are badly needed at the moment in terms of
rural issues - farming and housing
job creation outside of Dublin
education investment

Anything that represents an alternative to the main parties is to be welcomed.

However, prepare for a lot of sneering from the core media and established political parties.

And with bloody good reason.

Phoebas

To be in Government, wouldn't they have to agree some programme for Government?
If they agree a programme for Government, wouldn't they need some way of enforcing that agreement - something like a whip?

johnnyskeleton

I too would like to see more independents in the dail, and having good quality independents support a government would be a good thing.

But, if there are 20 independent tds, and a large party needs 5 for a majority, i cant see the independents sticking together and im sure 5 could be persuaded to break ranks.

So the next logical step is for them to form a voting block with a few core issues that they agree to support / not to support, and thereafter they have the freedom to vote as they like.

joe912

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well the problem is in your opening line, "they think for themselves".

By virtue of being independent they only have their own voters needs to look out for.

So if solving thar rural issue comes at the expense of an urban issue they you have an empass.

Nothing would get done.

I'm voting for my local FG TD next year, not because I think he is a great politician, but because I want to see FG back in power as they are doing a good job.

So you intend voting for someone who will sit in government and yet never get to open their mouth are share their opinion. That's just 100k of taxpayers money down the drain.

Manach

Historically looking back at the English example prior to the crystallisation of the whip system, (c 1750s-1830s offhand historian David Thompson) there were more internal factions in parliament and less chances of government lasting a full term. On the other hand, there was more sensitivity to what the electorate of the day would/would not expect from executive/legislative elements and hence more carefully crafted decisions.
So on balance, the OP has a point on independents.

joe912

Phoebas wrote: »

To be in Government, wouldn't they have to agree some programme for Government?
If they agree a programme for Government, wouldn't they need some way of enforcing that agreement - something like a whip?

But the whip is only used to protect the parties interests or perceived interests. Independents would not have to worry about party interests.

nice_guy80

I also realised I spelled the thread title incorrectly!

My point about rural issues, is that most independents are from rural constituencies. The Independent TDs from urban constituencies are well able to air their own issues, as part of a group.
People living in and around Dublin are totally insulated from what is happening in rural Ireland at the moment.
Towns and villages are dying on their feet as all the young people have left for urban Ireland. There are no jobs.
Shops closing, reduced economic activity, banks closing down, people have to drive 25 mins to get to a bank, little house building, schools emptying, sports clubs struggling to field teams.


Could they be any worse than some of the recent parties who have been in government?

A Cabinet with one or two independent TDs in it would be very interesting.
I'd really like to see them tackle government appointees to state boards and other organisations

Phoebas

joe912 wrote: »

But the whip is only used to protect the parties interests or perceived interests. Independents would not have to worry about party interests.

That doesn't address the question at all.

In order to be in Government (as opposed to supporting individual government proposals on a case by case basis), you need to agree some form of programme for government. If you have an agreement then there needs to be some mechanism for enforcing that agreement.

Fr Tod Umptious

joe912 wrote: »

So you intend voting for someone who will sit in government and yet never get to open their mouth are share their opinion. That's just 100k of taxpayers money down the drain.

Two points.
1. The TD in question has certainly not set the Dail alight but its his first term.
Also there are many that will not vote for him thus time because "he has doing nothing for the area" since 2011. That's where I differ, I'll vote for him because I want national stability, not the crumbs from the top table.

2. He is not on 100k. He only took half his salary this term, and unlike others it did not just give the remainder to his party.

First Up

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I also realised I spelled the thread title incorrectly!

My point about rural issues, is that most independents are from rural constituencies. The Independent TDs from urban constituencies are well able to air their own issues, as part of a group.
People living in and around Dublin are totally insulated from what is happening in rural Ireland at the moment.
Towns and villages are dying on their feet as all the young people have left for urban Ireland. There are no jobs.
Shops closing, reduced economic activity, banks closing down, people have to drive 25 mins to get to a bank, little house building, schools emptying, sports clubs struggling to field teams.


Could they be any worse than some of the recent parties who have been in government?

A Cabinet with one or two independent TDs in it would be very interesting.
I'd really like to see them tackle government appointees to state boards and other organisations

Even more interesting if local communities contained some entrepreneurial types who would start some businesses to create wealth and employment. Or is it always "government's" job to do it?

joe912

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Two points.
1. The TD in question has certainly not set the Dail alight but its his first term.
Also there are many that will not vote for him thus time because "he has doing nothing for the area" since 2011. That's where I differ, I'll vote for him because I want national stability, not the crumbs from the top table.

2. He is not on 100k. He only took half his salary this term, and unlike others it did not just give the remainder to his party.

Presumably he took no expenses either then

joe912

First Up wrote: »

Even more interesting if local communities contained some entrepreneurial types who would start some businesses to create wealth and employment. Or is it always "government's" job to do it?

If people waited for the government to do it they'd have a long wait. The government should within reason create the situation whereby this is possible and encourage and facilitate it. But unfortunately this government concentrated on multinationals for the headline grabbers

Fr Tod Umptious

joe912 wrote: »

Presumably he took no expenses either then

Why do you presume that ?

I've no idea what expenses he got, you can check it up.

Continue to move the goalposts since you started.

First Up

joe912 wrote: »

If people waited for the government to do it they'd have a long wait. The government should within reason create the situation whereby this is possible and encourage and facilitate it. But unfortunately this government concentrated on multinationals for the headline grabbers

The "headline grabbers" including stuff like the capital inflow, the technology transfer, the exports and the jobs?

How is our success at attracting multinationals at the expense of local enterprise? If the "situation" makes it possible to entice some of the world's fastest growing companies to set up here, how come the same "situation" isn't available to local business?

joe912

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why do you presume that ?

I've no idea what expenses he got, you can check it up.

Continue to move the goalposts since you started.

You were the one claiming he doesn't cost the taxpayer 100k to keep his mouth shut.
Just out of interest have you always voted finegael or is it just that this government has impressed you that much.

Fr Tod Umptious

joe912 wrote: »

You were the one claiming he doesn't cost the taxpayer 100k to keep his mouth shut.
Just out of interest have you always voted finegael or is it just that this government has impressed you that much.

Both

joe912

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Both

Front page headline lifetime supporter of finegael blindly supports party. including voting for a waster to help his party retain power.

dinny_byrne

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I also realised I spelled the thread title incorrectly!

My point about rural issues, is that most independents are from rural constituencies. The Independent TDs from urban constituencies are well able to air their own issues, as part of a group.
People living in and around Dublin are totally insulated from what is happening in rural Ireland at the moment.
Towns and villages are dying on their feet as all the young people have left for urban Ireland. There are no jobs.
Shops closing, reduced economic activity, banks closing down, people have to drive 25 mins to get to a bank, little house building, schools emptying, sports clubs struggling to field teams.


Could they be any worse than some of the recent parties who have been in government?

A Cabinet with one or two independent TDs in it would be very interesting.
I'd really like to see them tackle government appointees to state boards and other organisations

whats the big deal about having to travel twenty five minutes to a bank ? , i have to travel that far but luckily i dont need to go to a bank all that often , when i lived in new zealand i had to travel 100 km to get to a bank and a supermarket for that matter

ThisRegard

You only have to look back at the "independents" during the previous government to see that they're only out for themselves and local votes. Any government with them will be very short lived or compromised.

joe912

First Up wrote: »

The "headline grabbers" including stuff like the capital inflow, the technology transfer, the exports and the jobs?

How is our success at attracting multinationals at the expense of local enterprise? If the "situation" makes it possible to entice some of the world's fastest growing companies to set up here, how come the same "situation" isn't available to local business?

well if our locally elected representatives are to be believed, when they are claiming the credit for these announcements they have put a lot of time and effort in to getting these companies here, admittedly they have a lot less to say when they leave.

Fr Tod Umptious

joe912 wrote: »

Front page headline lifetime supporter of finegael blindly supports party. including voting for a waster to help his party retain power.

More or less.
But calling him a waster is a big strong.
If he had a ministerial position , junior or senior, I would be in a better position to judge him

But in the absences of that, voting for him helps get the party I want in power back in power.

quadrifoglio verde

joe912 wrote: »

So you intend voting for someone who will sit in government and yet never get to open their mouth are share their opinion. That's just 100k of taxpayers money down the drain.

You could apply that to every rd whether they're a memeber of party or not, that they'll cost the tax payer at least 100k.
Just because this individual gets elected, it doesn't add another 100k to salarys. It just gets given to this td instead of some would be td.

nice_guy80

dinny_byrne wrote: »

whats the big deal about having to travel twenty five minutes to a bank ? , i have to travel that far but luckily i dont need to go to a bank all that often , when i lived in new zealand i had to travel 100 km to get to a bank and a supermarket for that matter

Ireland is not NZ. Much bigger country, less populated, much more rural/urban divide

Lack of access to banks is a huge issue.
How can people start new businesses or get access to credit and deposit small business takings if they don't have a bank nearby?

Businesses are dying on their feet from lack of credit and investment funds.
The rates charged by local councils are also exorbitant and a huge deterrent to business start ups.
County councils are inefficient models of local government and need huge reform.

There is no real input from locally elected councillors as to where money is spent in council budgets. This has to change.

I'm struggling to see how electing independents over party members will keep bank branches open or create extra credit.

If anything a government dependent on independents for a majority would create less stability which would probably lead to less credit being available.

The problems you describe have existed since before the creation of this state, electing independents lobbying for their own constituency won't change that.

I too will probably vote to return the current government.

johnnyskeleton

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm struggling to see how electing independents over party members will keep bank branches open or create extra credit.

If anything a government dependent on independents for a majority would create less stability which would probably lead to less credit being available.

The problems you describe have existed since before the creation of this state, electing independents lobbying for their own constituency won't change that.

I too will probably vote to return the current government.

Not all independents are only concerned wih benefits for their local constituency.

The ones referred to by the OP are the other kind.

In fact, it seems like the main opposition to independents appears to be because the Jackie Healy Rea types have ruined it for the rest of then.

Im not sure theres any evidence to suggest that more independents makes for a less stable or less creditworthy govenrnment

dinny_byrne

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Ireland is not NZ. Much bigger country, less populated, much more rural/urban divide

Lack of access to banks is a huge issue.
How can people start new businesses or get access to credit and deposit small business takings if they don't have a bank nearby?

Businesses are dying on their feet from lack of credit and investment funds.
The rates charged by local councils are also exorbitant and a huge deterrent to business start ups.
County councils are inefficient models of local government and need huge reform.

There is no real input from locally elected councillors as to where money is spent in council budgets. This has to change.

the primary school closest to me ( which i attended in the eighties ) has eighteen pupils and two full time teachers , a quater of a million was spent on the school around ten years ago , this despite the fact that their is a school with over a hundred pupils only two miles away

their is huge waste when it comes to rural spend

the problem is largely cultural attitudes , too many irish people think all sorts of services should be available in sparsely populated parts of the country , we hear talk about roscommon hospital closing and people then having to either travel to athlone or sligo etc , so what !

if you live in rural parts of australia , you would be lucky not to have to travel for several hours to a hospital , an hour to a hospital is not far and twenty five minutes to a bank is a piece of p155

johnnyskeleton

joe912 wrote: »

Presumably he took no expenses either then

Is there anything wrong with taking legitimate expenses? If a paye workers boss tells them to go to Cork for a job, he hardly expects them to pay for their own transport and accommodaion do they?

Saipanne

Manach wrote: »

Historically looking back at the English example prior to the crystallisation of the whip system, (c 1750s-1830s offhand historian David Thompson) there were more internal factions in parliament and less chances of government lasting a full term. On the other hand, there was more sensitivity to what the electorate of the day would/would not expect from executive/legislative elements and hence more carefully crafted decisions.
So on balance, the OP has a point on independents.

That's very interesting.

First Up

joe912 wrote: »

well if our locally elected representatives are to be believed, when they are claiming the credit for these announcements they have put a lot of time and effort in to getting these companies here, admittedly they have a lot less to say when they leave.

Maybe they helped, maybe they didn't. That doesn't answer the question. If government (not just this one) policies have made Ireland a good place to do business, why blame government if local business can't or won't take more initiative? We have national and regional enterprise agencies, state training bodies and plenty other aids and instruments available to nurture prospective business.

If you have a point or a suggestion to make about how to better invigorate our towns and villages, lets hear it. But if you are just intent on aimless sniping for its own sake, I'm not really interested.