Cleaning charge on leaving an apartment?

Pink Lady

My daughter is leaving her apartment at the weekend (end of lease). The landlords have a policy that the tenants leaving have to pay €250 for cleaners to come in after they've left and clean the apartment. I've never heard of this before. It's such a lot of money when they have to come up with money for next apartment? Is this legal guys?

Mrs OBumble

Was it in the lease from the beginning?

spaceHopper

You'd easily get it done for a lot less. Or she could clean it herself, tell the LL that if they aren't happy with it after that then to get it done and she'll settle the invoice if they send it on to there or a copy of the receipt, even if it's in the lease he can't charge her the money and then not get it done she could take a case to the PRTB.

runawaybishop

Pink Lady wrote: »

My daughter is leaving her apartment at the weekend (end of lease). The landlords have a policy that the tenants leaving have to pay €250 for cleaners to come in after they've left and clean the apartment. I've never heard of this before. It's such a lot of money when they have to come up with money for next apartment? Is this legal guys?

If it was in the lease and a receipt is provided, yes. If it is not in the lease but your daughter leaves the place in a state and there is a receipt, yes. Otherwise refuse to accept it and state you will contact PTRB about it if they push it. If they try to take it out of the deposit inform them you will take them in front of PTRB.

jimmii

Did it look like it was professionally cleaned before she moved in? Normally there is something inserted along the lines of leaving it as you found it which would cover it at a stretch. If she gets its done herself it will probably work out cheaper depending on the size of the property.

Pink Lady

Thanks all. I need to check if it was in the Lease or if it was verbal at the beginning. They were in the apartment for 4 years. My daughter is a neat freak so already the apartment is almost back to the way it was when they moved in. She has always kept it clean and tidy. I've just never heard of the tenants having to book their own cleaners. The apartment building is in NAMA. I'm not sure who is renting them out. They have to contact the designated cleaners, book them to come in after she leaves and leave the money in the apartment. It is most likely that they stated this in the Lease but I hadn't thought of that. It's a disgrace. €250 is very excessive for a clean - this one anyway and she'll leave it spotless.

runawaybishop

Pink Lady wrote: »

It's a disgrace. €250 is very excessive for a clean - this one anyway and she'll leave it spotless.

If it was in the lease and you didn't take any heed of it then you only have yourselves to blame. Nothing disgraceful about it.

BeatNikDub

Wow! That is really an excessive amount of money.

Also the fact that you just leave the cash there for them to pick up sounds VERY dodgy!
Hopefully it isn't in lease, or maybe it was in original one signed and they haven't signed one every year.

Damn right to check this out first.

Pink Lady

I'm only asking if it is usual for a cleaning bill of this amount to be charged? Or if it is normal for tenants to have to book a cleaning company at all when vacating the apartment. The first I heard was last night when my daughter mentioned it. I accept that if it is in the leave then she has to pay it. I'm just curious to know if it this is usual as I haven't heard of anyone having to do this. I thought the normal was for tenants who are vacating an apartment to leave it in the same way as they found it when they moved it which is absolutely right and they should forfeit their deposit if they don't.

runawaybishop

Pink Lady wrote: »

I'm only asking if it is usual for a cleaning bill of this amount to be charged? Or if it is normal for tenants to have to book a cleaning company at all when vacating the apartment. The first I heard was last night when my daughter mentioned it. I accept that if it is in the leave then she has to pay it. I'm just curious to know if it this is usual as I haven't heard of anyone having to do this. I thought the normal was for tenants who are vacating an apartment to leave it in the same way as they found it when they moved it which is absolutely right and they should forfeit their deposit if they don't.

That would be the bare minimum though, many LLs will pay for a company to come out and thoroughly clean properties once tenants vacate. Its not uncommon for this charge to be stipulated in the lease. The price may be high, but we don't really know what level of cleaning is involved. As long as a receipt is provided and its in the lease its all above board.

Mrs OBumble

Pink Lady wrote: »

It's a disgrace. €250 is very excessive for a clean - this one anyway and she'll leave it spotless.

But are the other three people also neat-freaks? Somehow I'm doubting it.

Also - is this student accommodation, by any chance? Sometimes student complexes have different rules.

WoollyRedHat

Just doing some maths here... presuming he were to hire 2 cleaners in at the rate of 10 euro per cleaner (which is usually the going rate)

They'd have to be working 10 hours to get near to 250 euro... unless the apartment is massive (and even then it's an apartment) and needs an industrial level clean

If it is referenced in the lease, then tell your daughter to do some research and find out how much the designated cleaning company is charging the landlord.

runawaybishop wrote: »

If it was in the lease and you didn't take any heed of it then you only have yourselves to blame. Nothing disgraceful about it.

There should be a level of flexibility between both parties though.

runawaybishop wrote: »

As long as a receipt is provided and its in the lease its all above board.

This... make sure to get a receipt.

Pink Lady

The apartment has been rented by my daughter and her fiancee and, while he isn't a 'neat freak', they have always kept the apartment clean and tidy. They are moving out as they've secured another property. . It is not student accommodation.

Polo_Mint

Pink Lady wrote: »

My daughter is leaving her apartment at the weekend (end of lease). The landlords have a policy that the tenants leaving have to pay €250 for cleaners to come in after they've left and clean the apartment. I've never heard of this before. It's such a lot of money when they have to come up with money for next apartment? Is this legal guys?

Wow, I got a 3 bedroom, two story house cleaned for €100 when I was moving out

jimmii

Pink Lady wrote: »

I'm only asking if it is usual for a cleaning bill of this amount to be charged? Or if it is normal for tenants to have to book a cleaning company at all when vacating the apartment. The first I heard was last night when my daughter mentioned it. I accept that if it is in the leave then she has to pay it. I'm just curious to know if it this is usual as I haven't heard of anyone having to do this. I thought the normal was for tenants who are vacating an apartment to leave it in the same way as they found it when they moved it which is absolutely right and they should forfeit their deposit if they don't.

It varies if its in Nama it is probably being run by a Management company in my experience then that is quite normal for them to request it. It is probably just a set amount they quote for an apartment that sounds quite excessive €250 is about 20 hours worth of cleaning time. I had a place in London that I got cleaned and two people came in and had the place spotless and it cost <£100 for a few hours definitely look to get it done if it is something that your daughter is going to have to fork out for. If she is in Dublin she could just use Hassle doubt it would come to anywhere near what they are quoting.

Kop On

Pink Lady wrote: »

I'm only asking if it is usual for a cleaning bill of this amount to be charged? Or if it is normal for tenants to have to book a cleaning company at all when vacating the apartment. The first I heard was last night when my daughter mentioned it. I accept that if it is in the leave then she has to pay it. I'm just curious to know if it this is usual as I haven't heard of anyone having to do this. I thought the normal was for tenants who are vacating an apartment to leave it in the same way as they found it when they moved it which is absolutely right and they should forfeit their deposit if they don't.

To me, it does seem unusual for the tenants leaving to be booking the cleaners and the cost seems off the wall. In my estimation, €250 equates to about 16 hours of cleaning. You'd want a fairly dirty apartment to have to spend 2 full days (16 hours) cleaning it.

I'd check the lease and even then, I'd be leaving the place clean, tidy and hoovered and be on my way.

Pink Lady

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Just doing some maths here... presuming he were to hire 2 cleaners in at the rate of 10 euro per cleaner (which is usually the going rate)

They'd have to be working 10 hours to get near to 250 euro... unless the apartment is massive (and even then it's an apartment) and needs an industrial level clean

If it is referenced in the lease, then tell your daughter to do some research and find out how much the designated cleaning company is charging the landlord.



This... make sure to get a receipt.

Thanks for that. Yes I really wouldn't mind them having to pay for cleaners but it's the amount I'm surprised at. I do think it's unusual for tenants to have to hire the designated cleaners but be that as it may, I do think €250 is crazy. It is a 2-bed but the 2nd bedrooms was only used for guests so was always clean and tidy. Neat freak was probably a bit strong to label her but she does like things to be clean and tidy so really the apartment is in good condition even before they leave end of the week. Even though they are getting the cleaners in she will do a good job on it before they go. I'll check out the Lease later and see exactly what it says. Thanks for your comments and help.

Pink Lady

Kop On wrote: »

To me, it does seem unusual for the tenants leaving to be booking the cleaners and the cost seems off the wall. In my estimation, €250 equates to about 16 hours of cleaning. You'd want a fairly dirty apartment to have to spend 2 full days (16 hours) cleaning it.

I'd check the lease and even then, I'd be leaving the place clean, tidy and hoovered and be on my way.

Yep it's the excessiveness of the cost that's getting me. Gosh I think I'll take up cleaning myself at that rate!!!!!!

Pink Lady

jimmii wrote: »

Did it look like it was professionally cleaned before she moved in? Normally there is something inserted along the lines of leaving it as you found it which would cover it at a stretch. If she gets its done herself it will probably work out cheaper depending on the size of the property.

Yes it was spotless when they moved in. But I need really to check her Lease later and see that it says. Thanks.

Carawaystick

If the tenant has to book the cleaners, maybe the tenant should invoice for the time taken, at a day rate of eur 250 maybe...

runawaybishop

Pink Lady wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yes I really wouldn't mind them having to pay for cleaners but it's the amount I'm surprised at. I do think it's unusual for tenants to have to hire the designated cleaners but be that as it may, I do think €250 is crazy. It is a 2-bed but the 2nd bedrooms was only used for guests so was always clean and tidy. Neat freak was probably a bit strong to label her but she does like things to be clean and tidy so really the apartment is in good condition even before they leave end of the week. Even though they are getting the cleaners in she will do a good job on it before they go. I'll check out the Lease later and see exactly what it says. Thanks for your comments and help.

Thats why a receipt is essential. If the place is being cleaned to intensive care ward levels and steamed to remove all forms of life the price may be justified and its what was signed up to (assuming again its in the lease). If the cleaning is actually being done in 30 minutes by Mary down the road with no receipt then do not even entertain them.

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the tenant has to book the cleaners, maybe the tenant should invoice for the time taken, at a day rate of eur 250 maybe...

That's not how it works

Pink Lady

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Wow! That is really an excessive amount of money.

Also the fact that you just leave the cash there for them to pick up sounds VERY dodgy!
Hopefully it isn't in lease, or maybe it was in original one signed and they haven't signed one every year.

Damn right to check this out first.

Yes it is excessive isn't it!! She's afraid they'll lose their deposit if she refused to hire the cleaners and do the cleaning herself which she would do anyway. Will check it out tonight.

runawaybishop

Pink Lady wrote: »

Yes it is excessive isn't it!! She's afraid they'll lose their deposit if she refused to hire the cleaners and do the cleaning herself which she would do anyway. Will check it out tonight.

The most she could lose out of her deposit for not getting the cleaners in for 250 is 250 euro, they cant just take it all on a whim.

Pink Lady

Hi iimmii yes you're right it is in Nama and run by a Management company. I didn't think this would make a difference but obviously it may do. I think she needs to ring the Management company and say that while she is willing to have professional cleaners in to clean the apartment, could she get her own and pay a lesser fee. Thanks for that.

farrerg

Pink Lady wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yes I really wouldn't mind them having to pay for cleaners but it's the amount I'm surprised at. I do think it's unusual for tenants to have to hire the designated cleaners but be that as it may, I do think €250 is crazy. It is a 2-bed but the 2nd bedrooms was only used for guests so was always clean and tidy. Neat freak was probably a bit strong to label her but she does like things to be clean and tidy so really the apartment is in good condition even before they leave end of the week. Even though they are getting the cleaners in she will do a good job on it before they go. I'll check out the Lease later and see exactly what it says. Thanks for your comments and help.

Your daughter is tidy, but many people aren't unfortunately and it's probably included as standard, I have heard of it once before here and more commonly with friends in London.
Rather than take the time to inspect each property and decide if it has been sufficiently cleaned, and argue over withholding deposits, they just get a cleaning company to do a very high standard post tenancy clean. Excess cost for your daughter unfortunately but as they're not paying, they're probably not too concerned if its too high

jimmii

Pink Lady wrote: »

Hi iimmii yes you're right it is in Nama and run by a Management company. I didn't think this would make a difference but obviously it may do. I think she needs to ring the Management company and say that while she is willing to have professional cleaners in to clean the apartment, could she get her own and pay a lesser fee. Thanks for that.

It doesn't make much difference its just that its something you are more likely to encounter it with an agent.

Tiger Mcilroy

Quick google search brings back multiple companies doing an end of tenancy clean for well under 200..can your daughter request to use a different company?.

I wouldnt be handing over any money without receipts, sounds like the LL has a handy number for some cleaner friend.

Mrs OBumble

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Just doing some maths here... presuming he were to hire 2 cleaners in at the rate of 10 euro per cleaner (which is usually the going rate)

They'd have to be working 10 hours to get near to 250 euro... unless the apartment is massive (and even then it's an apartment) and needs an industrial level clean

Cleaning equipment and consumables aren't free (professional cleaners bring their own), and insurance, holiday pay and employer PRSI also need to be paid. So if professional cleansers are used, a calculation like that is meaningless.

I don't have experience in the cleaning industry, so don't know what proportion of the charge is usually for direct labour - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 50-60%.


Personally I've been in my apartment for 6+ years, and if I was moving out I would be paying to get it professionally cleaned, rather than doing it myself. I've watched professionals at work before, and they have the equipment and knowledge to do it far more quickly and effectively than I could. And in terms of value, I'd expect to pay probably E200 for this.

Kop On

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Cleaning equipment and consumables aren't free (professional cleaners bring their own), and insurance, holiday pay and employer PRSI also need to be paid. So if professional cleansers are used, a calculation like that is meaningless.

The fact the tenant has been asked to leave €250 cash, I'd find it hard to believe the job being done is anything but cash in hand for the cleaners.

jimmii

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Cleaning equipment and consumables aren't free (professional cleaners bring their own), and insurance, holiday pay and employer PRSI also need to be paid. So if professional cleansers are used, a calculation like that is meaningless.

I don't have experience in the cleaning industry, so don't know what proportion of the charge is usually for direct labour - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 50-60%.


Personally I've been in my apartment for 6+ years, and if I was moving out I would be paying to get it professionally cleaned, rather than doing it myself. I've watched professionals at work before, and they have the equipment and knowledge to do it far more quickly and effectively than I could. And in terms of value, I'd expect to pay probably E200 for this.

Now that hassle.com exists we can get a general idea as the service and materials are charged separately. They charge €12/hour for the service (incl. insurance) and €2/hour for the cleaning materials so €250 would be almost 18 hours of work. The cleaner gets around €10 an hour so of that €14 an hour that 50%-60% number looks about right.

Barely Hedged

jimmii wrote: »

Now that hassle.com exists we can get a general idea as the service and materials are charged separately. They charge €12/hour for the service (incl. insurance) and €2/hour for the cleaning materials so €250 would be almost 18 hours of work. The cleaner gets around €10 an hour so of that €14 an hour that 50%-60% number looks about right.

If the apartment has carpets/rugs a deep clean of these is both time consuming and costly.

With all due respect, ive got to laugh at the posts where people say €10 an hour should be enough as they fail to grasp the full cost of operating a professional cleaning company or any company for that matter.

Reminds me of when im in a pub in Temple Bar and people give out about paying €6 for a pint and say how the publican is milking it. Yep, the €6 goes straight into his pocket - he doesnt pay rates, expensive lease etc etc

jimmii

Barely Hedged wrote: »

If the apartment has carpets/rugs a deep clean of these is both time consuming and costly.

With all due respect, ive got to laugh at the posts where people say €10 an hour should be enough as they fail to grasp the full cost of operating a professional cleaning company or any company for that matter.

Reminds me of when im in a pub in Temple Bar and people give out about paying €6 for a pint and say how the publican is milking it. Yep, the €6 goes straight into his pocket - he doesnt pay rates, expensive lease etc etc

They probably aren't making a whole lot out of that but its probably the highest profile cleaning comapny right now and the only one I know of that quote the numbers like that on their site so just using that as an example of the entry point if nothing else. Presumably its only a fairly basic clean at that price but its still a professional clean and that is all the agents have appeared to ask for. You can't expect to get all the deep cleaning equipment that you would get with other companies but you get what you pay for and that hasn't been mentioned in op so we can't go speculating as to whether or not that is required.

But anyone back on topic! Hopefully the agent will at least come to some sort of compromise for the OPs daughter at the very least.

WoollyRedHat

Hmmm, I just noticed an funny coincidence when searching for cleaning companies online to try get an idea of the average quote...

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Cleaning equipment and consumables aren't free (professional cleaners bring their own), and insurance, holiday pay and employer PRSI also need to be paid. So if professional cleansers are used, a calculation like that is meaningless.

I don't have experience in the cleaning industry, so don't know what proportion of the charge is usually for direct labour - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 50-60%.


Personally I've been in my apartment for 6+ years, and if I was moving out I would be paying to get it professionally cleaned, rather than doing it myself. I've watched professionals at work before, and they have the equipment and knowledge to do it far more quickly and effectively than I could. And in terms of value, I'd expect to pay probably E200 for this.

I factored in the cost of cleaning equipment/ transport and insurance when I was doing my calculations, I just didn't feel the need to mention it in my post, felt like it went without saying.

18 hours clean is still excessive for an apartment even if it were for a deep clean, that's where the problem lies.

burkey2k0

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Hmmm, I just noticed an funny coincidence when searching for cleaning companies online to try get an idea of the average quote...

I factored in the cost of cleaning equipment/ transport and insurance when I was doing my calculations, I just didn't feel the need to mention it in my post, felt like it went without saying.

18 hours clean is still excessive for an apartment even if it were for a deep clean, that's where the problem lies.

Having gotten several quotes for these type of cleans I can agree that €250 does sounds high at first, but that's because people tend to underestimate the charge per hour professional companies charge, plus the fact they charge a fortune if you include an oven cleaning. Example of a quote I received very recently:

"The hourly rate for our deep clean is €22.50 per hour per Maid (for a team of 2 maids)
and the minimum time we can call to clean your house will be 5 hours each and
the cost would be estimated at €285.00 including oven cleaning."

Charge for oven cleaning (a double, so large bottom oven and small top oven) is €60-85 on it's own.

You're better off doing it yourself, which is what I did when I saw the price (but took much longer than a professional would...because I'm a useless man), or using a site that advertises freelance cleaners (search google for 'house cleaning Dublin' as an example for sites that advertise these) which you can get for €10 an hour. Using freelance you're at risk of not getting a proper service obviously.

SlinkyL

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Wow! That is really an excessive amount of money.

Also the fact that you just leave the cash there for them to pick up sounds VERY dodgy!
Hopefully it isn't in lease, or maybe it was in original one signed and they haven't signed one every year.

Damn right to check this out first.

Just on this point. I'm having major issues with a landlord at the moment, won't go into details but signed a one-year lease in dec 2011 and never signed another one, there was never any inspections. Can anyone tell me about the validity of lease after 3 years & 3 months? They won't return a penny of my deposit and are hitting me with all kinds of cleaning, carpet cleaning, alleged 'specialist' cleaning etc etc... no receipts produced! I'm taking them to PRTB already but just interested to know if the lease would still be valid. Thanks!

runawaybishop

SlinkyL wrote: »

Just on this point. I'm having major issues with a landlord at the moment, won't go into details but signed a one-year lease in dec 2011 and never signed another one, there was never any inspections. Can anyone tell me about the validity of lease after 3 years & 3 months? They won't return a penny of my deposit and are hitting me with all kinds of cleaning, carpet cleaning, alleged 'specialist' cleaning etc etc... no receipts produced! I'm taking them to PRTB already but just interested to know if the lease would still be valid. Thanks!

The lease expired and you are on part 4. If there was originally a cleaning bill mentioned in the lease it still stands though. If the wear and tear wasn't above normal they cant take your deposit.