does eating protein

Mellor

Transform wrote: »

protein timing etc generally only makes a difference when the individual is training multiple times per day or week, overall timing is not the issue when the same person cant sort out the basics of their nutrition or training first.

However, i quite like mike mathews work and he covers this point well here - http://www.muscleforlife.com/guide-to-post-workout-nutrition/

I don't think protein timing has much of an impact at all. Overall intake is much more significant.
But the study about didnt mention timings.

Transform

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I was listening to the Sigma Nutrition episode with Mike Israetel and he reckoned that nutrient timing was, at best, 10% of the big picture and only really relevant to people training several times a day/serious competitors.

But people get bogged down in the like of 'when do I take my shake?' and 'when should I time my carbs around training?' when they haven't nailed down their intake and the macros, which is about 80% of the nutrition.

people LOVE trying to master the minor things because it deflects them from actually taking action on the stuff that truly matters.

Ive gotten a ton of pubic and private messages from lots of people that applied and went back to the basics on the back of the seminar I did with Danny (from Sigma nutrition).

enfant terrible

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I was listening to the Sigma Nutrition episode with Mike Israetel and he reckoned that nutrient timing was, at best, 10% of the big picture and only really relevant to people training several times a day/serious competitors.

But people get bogged down in the like of 'when do I take my shake?' and 'when should I time my carbs around training?' when they haven't nailed down their intake and the macros, which is about 80% of the nutrition.

Got a link that explains it simply?

Alf Veedersane

enfant terrible wrote: »

Got a link that explains it simply?

That explains nutrient timing?

enfant terrible

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That explains nutrient timing?

Sorry meant to quote Transform post.

Was looking for info on "when they haven't nailed down their intake and the macros, which is about 80% of the nutrition"

Zillah

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I was listening to the Sigma Nutrition episode with Mike Israetel and he reckoned that nutrient timing was, at best, 10% of the big picture and only really relevant to people training several times a day/serious competitors.

But people get bogged down in the like of 'when do I take my shake?' and 'when should I time my carbs around training?' when they haven't nailed down their intake and the macros, which is about 80% of the nutrition.

Any of the actual science that I have read backs this up; getting your macros consistently right is the important thing, and timing is not very important. I have also read countless times from, shall we say popular sources, that timing is absolutely crucial but they never have any back up for it beyond biological plausibility (which is a nice way to begin looking into something but going from there to practice is silly).

power pants

is protein just protein?

Would you get better results eating protein from fish, steak etc than if it was just from whey all the time?

ie would 180g of protein per day from whey be the same benefit as 180g protein from tuna, steak, whey mixed?

Alf Veedersane

power pants wrote: »

is protein just protein?

Would you get better results eating protein from fish, steak etc than if it was just from whey all the time?

ie would 180g of protein per day from whey be the same benefit as 180g protein from tuna, steak, whey mixed?

There are differences but they're very small.

Zillah

One reason whey is so popular is that it has all of the essential amino acids. If you were relying on limited plant proteins you would see a difference, as you'd be struggling to get all the amino acids that you need. That's why the vegan protein powders are usually a mix of several different types, like rice, pea and soy.

There is also BV, or bioavailability, which is a number that represents how much of the protein your body can use. Whey has a very high number, whereas most plant sources are much lower, so you're effectively only getting, say, 60% of the protein total you've ingested, whereas something like whey is close to 100%.

Whey is awesome. Obviously a steak or whatever has lots of other, non-protein, nutrition.

blatantrereg

power pants wrote: »

is protein just protein?

Would you get better results eating protein from fish, steak etc than if it was just from whey all the time?

ie would 180g of protein per day from whey be the same benefit as 180g protein from tuna, steak, whey mixed?

Different protein sources have different mixtures of amino acids. Some amino acids are essential, some can be manufactured by the body. There is a requirement for amounts of essential amino acids apart from total protein. Generally people will satisfy their requirements for all essential amino acids if they satisfy their overall protein requirement. All of the foods you listed will satisfy all essential amino acid requirements by themselves I think if eaten in sufficient quantity to satisfy overall protein requirements. This is also true for some sources not generally considered comprehensive protein sources such as oats and chickpeas. Some vegetable sources don't have proportionate levels of all essential amino acids. Cereals (including and famously wheat) tend to have proportionately lower levels of lysine for example. So if you only ate wheat protein you would need to eat more than twice as much of it to get enough lysine. Lentils have slightly lower proportion of another essential amino acid.

Protein digestibility is another factor. Plant sources of protein tend to be measured at about 85% digestibility (oats, lentils etc). I've found sources indicating that gluten (wheat protein) is poorly digested and sources that indicate that it is digested better than tuna (close to 100%). I assume animal protein scores are generally very high for digestibility.

The amino acid profile has more significance than just satisfying essential amino acid requirements however. For example beta alanine is present in large quantities in meat and pretty much absent in vegetable protein. Its significance is in its use in creating carnosine, which is a useful antioxidant. Carnosine has a minor but significant performance enhancing effect on muscle endurance and also seems to have anti-aging properties among other interesting properties. Creatine is also present in meat but not really in vegetable protein. Obviously these sorts of considerations become irrelevant if supplements are used for the specific amino acids.

I'm vegetarian incidentally; just in case it seems odd that this post focuses so much on vegetable protein.

blatantrereg

Zillah wrote: »

One reason whey is so popular is that it has all of the essential amino acids. If you were relying on limited plant proteins you would see a difference, as you'd be struggling to get all the amino acids that you need. That's why the vegan protein powders are usually a mix of several different types, like rice, pea and soy.

There is also BV, or bioavailability, which is a number that represents how much of the protein your body can use. Whey has a very high number, whereas most plant sources are much lower, so you're effectively only getting, say, 60% of the protein total you've ingested, whereas something like whey is close to 100%.

Whey is awesome. Obviously a steak or whatever has lots of other, non-protein, nutrition.

85% or so is more typical than 60% for plant sources but yes there is generally a difference.

Soy and peas will provide all essential amino acids by themselves, so the mixture is unnecessary. People tend to overestimate the need for protein combining in plant diets. Rice would be signifcantly lacking in lysine by itself.

JJayoo

I think the timing of your shake can be important in certain instances for example

Match meant to start at 3pm
last meal at about 1.15
Warming up from 2.30
match doesn't start till 3.20
60 mins of hard cardio
Match over at 4.40 after half time and stoppages
Shower, change, drive home, cook food
Eat at possibly 6.30

Now a player in this situation having a protein/sugar shake as soon as they finish the match will def benefit compared to waiting until they eventually get home to start cooking. And if playing GAA you are doing this at the weekends and then a similar process 2/3 times per week with training on top of any weightlifting you are doing.

Zillah

JJayoo wrote: »

Now a player in this situation having a protein/sugar shake as soon as they finish the match will def benefit compared to waiting until they eventually get home to start cooking.

In what way?

Alf Veedersane

JJayoo wrote: »

I think the timing of your shake can be important in certain instances for example

Match meant to start at 3pm
last meal at about 1.15
Warming up from 2.30
match doesn't start till 3.20
60 mins of hard cardio
Match over at 4.40 after half time and stoppages
Shower, change, drive home, cook food
Eat at possibly 6.30

Now a player in this situation having a protein/sugar shake as soon as they finish the match will def benefit compared to waiting until they eventually get home to start cooking. And if playing GAA you are doing this at the weekends and then a similar process 2/3 times per week with training on top of any weightlifting you are doing.

More so with the carbs.

It's not as important with protein though if you're looking at 160g of protein a day, you're better off getting it in, for example, 4 lots of 40g rather than 80 and 80 because you'll have a greater degree of availability of amino acids. If I understand it correctly...

power pants

based on no scientific eveidence or anything, I would agree too

better to get constant quanties of protein over the day than 2 big amounts

Definitely be more important regarding carbs

Transform

Most GAA guys I've ever worked with have horrible nutrition so I'd be more concerned about the entire week of eating versus what they have post workout and when

Transform

power pants wrote: »

is protein just protein?

Would you get better results eating protein from fish, steak etc than if it was just from whey all the time?

ie would 180g of protein per day from whey be the same benefit as 180g protein from tuna, steak, whey mixed?

Whole based protein based food are more satiating also and nutrient dense

I might eat a quest protein bar (nuts and whey protein) but I'm going to feel a heck of a lot more satisfied with a homemade flapjack or 'paleo' bar with the exact same amount of calories

Regardless of the source of the protein shake or powder (whey, pea, hemp, soy etc) they are simply used to shore up some gaps. They shouldn't be used as a major source unless you have some very funky stuff going on

I woprote about nutrient density in an article of mine back in 2013 here - http://www.dominicmunnelly.ie/2013/05/nutrient-density-stick-to-the-essentials/ might be worth a read/watch for those that want to know

blatantrereg

I posted a summary of some research I did on vegetable protein sources on various posts in this thread on vegan/vegetarian forum. Seems relevant here, though probably of limited interest unless you're considering reducing consumption of animal foods.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057408533

JJayoo

Zillah wrote: »

In what way?

Well in the situation I described the person hadn't eaten in about 5 hours and has done 60 minutes hard cardio and then 15 or so mins warmup, so having a shake of some protein and loads of sugar just means that as soon as they finish they can down it.

A lot of lads I know that play GAA will usually play a match and then have a few pints afterwards so just getting the protein and carbs in ur belly, in such a convenient way, is handy. I am also assuming this person is gyming and trying to get stronger/bigger. GAA eats gains.

Now when it comes to lifting weights I have hit many PBs while eating cake/biscuits/both and drinking tea between sets nom nom

JJayoo

Transform wrote: »

Most GAA guys I've ever worked with have horrible nutrition so I'd be more concerned about the entire week of eating versus what they have post workout and when

But you can get an entire team to take a shake after every training/match by saying one sentence.

Of course if you could sort out the nutrition in full it would be the way to go but sometimes you have to jump on the small simple changes.

Zillah

JJayoo wrote: »

Well in the situation I described the person hadn't eaten in about 5 hours and has done 60 minutes hard cardio and then 15 or so mins warmup, so having a shake of some protein and loads of sugar just means that as soon as they finish they can down it.

A lot of lads I know that play GAA will usually play a match and then have a few pints afterwards so just getting the protein and carbs in ur belly, in such a convenient way, is handy. I am also assuming this person is gyming and trying to get stronger/bigger. GAA eats gains.

Now when it comes to lifting weights I have hit many PBs while eating cake/biscuits/both and drinking tea between sets nom nom

Getting some sugar in will help speed recovery, sure. But what do you think will be the difference between the guys who have protein straight after the ga compared to the guys who have the same amount of protein before they go to bed, say?

JJayoo

Zillah wrote: »

Getting some sugar in will help speed recovery, sure. But what do you think will be the difference between the guys who have protein straight after the ga compared to the guys who have the same amount of protein before they go to bed, say?

It's just convenient to get it in at this time, plus builds a routine in the same way that you always brush your teeth before bed. Finish match/training, drink shake, shower, go home, prepare proper meal.

Personally I don't take post workout shakes but if I went back playing GAA I def would. 25 g whey, 50 grams sugar/glucose and a banana. Or whey and jelly babies nom nom

Transform

Zillah wrote: »

Getting some sugar in will help speed recovery, sure. But what do you think will be the difference between the guys who have protein straight after the ga compared to the guys who have the same amount of protein before they go to bed, say?

defo the GAA guys its the simple changes so you might have to force them to down a shake and eat a banana after all training sessions.

I know Leinster rugby have big vats with various whey protein, carbs etc and plenty of fruit for post workout and many GAA teams following suit, its all just convenient as no better than real food.

I personally consume shakes after all sessions for the same reason and have a proper meal outside of training times

CM24

I can see lots of professional rugby teams and inter county GAA teams getting deals with those Paleo delivery companies where the players get a weeks worth of breakfasts, lunches and dinners delivered to their houses. Would really take the stress out of eating healthy and would be much more beneficial than supplements.

Conor McGregor's MMA team has a deal with Fighter Food. The pictures of the meals they put up on Twitter/Instagram look lovely.

Transform

so we're basically back to my original point that what matters is the overall nutrition intake over a day/week/month not just post workout

once you move beyond thinking training and nutrition are what makes abs/fitness/performance/flat tummy or what ever your goal is you might slowly realise that the difference between successful people that hit their goals has more to do with long term compliance and consistency than what happens within a very short time frame.

PowerToWait

Just had a squint at those paleo delivery guys. 479 euro for a monthly supply. Only 1500 Kcals a day mind you.

Seems like you'd need to be very flush. Or time poor. Or dedicated. Has anyone used?

I put a lot of money into my food compared to what I hear others talking about. Mostly meat, fish and eggs. With veg and some dairy, bit of fruit, but even I wouldn't spend that.

CM24

I'm guessing you would just use them for a month or so to kick start a lifestyle of healthy eating. Say you get three meals a day from them then snack on things like nuts, fruit, smoothies, protein shakes etc in between meals, you would be getting 2000+ healthy calories a day. You'd probably be feeling and looking so much better at the end of the month that you'd naturally start cooking healthy meals for yourself from there on.

My brother plays rugby with Connacht and he said they're in talks with one of those companies to start getting meals for the players. Probably a bit pricey for the average bloke alright.