AIG car insurance - XLNTdriver app

birchtree

Just bought motor insurance policy with AIG. I did a fair bit of shopping and it came out cheapest of the lot. Part of the deal is to install and run XLNTdriver smartphone app, which records my journeys and provides my driving score. Today is the first day I've used it. It takes a while for the journey to be processed on AIG servers, still haven't got the score back 4 hours later. It only recorded 7 minutes of my 30 minute journey, but FAQs state that's ok.

Anyone else using it? How do you find it overall?

ironclaw

Given my experience in the development side of things for the G-Meters, accelerometers and GPS capabilities of phones, I feel these apps are a license for the insurance company to nail you.

If I had one, I'd mount it to a gyroscope mount in the boot and leave it there :pac:

Alanstrainor

Attach it to a pet dog and let them scratch their heads.

Special Circumstances

ironclaw wrote: »

Given my experience in the development side of things for the G-Meters, accelerometers and GPS capabilities of phones, I feel these apps are a license for the insurance company to nail you.

If I had one, I'd mount it to a gyroscope mount in the boot and leave it there :pac:

I had the same suspicions - had to look up the app - permissions are for gps/gsm location.
Do apps need separate permissions for accelerometers etc?

Special Circumstances

I was also think of some "damper" for it if accelerometers were accessed. Gyro gimbal sounds like a plan!:cool:

jimgoose

Shortly after Hell freezes over. That is all. :pac:

birchtree

ironclaw wrote: »

Given my experience in the development side of things for the G-Meters, accelerometers and GPS capabilities of phones, I feel these apps are a license for the insurance company to nail you.

If I had one, I'd mount it to a gyroscope mount in the boot and leave it there :pac:

I was thinking of leaving it with my friend bus driver LOL.

Not sure how insurance company would 'nail me' - would it report me to Gardai if they thought I'm a really bad driver? Would that data stand in court?

It would be quite interesting to see what would they give me if I asked to provide me with all my personal data they possess under Data Protection Act!

jimgoose

birchtree wrote: »

I was thinking of leaving it with my friend bus driver LOL.

Not sure how insurance company would 'nail me' - would it report me to Gardai if they thought I'm a really bad driver? Would that data stand in court?

It would be quite interesting to see what would they give me if I asked to provide me with all my personal data they possess under Data Protection Act!

They'd give you the runaround. That blasted Data Protection Act seems to exist mostly to "protect" people from their own information.

kirving

Example scenario:

The smartphone is logging you at 51kph in a 50kph zone some night. A cyclist with no lights breaks a red light at a crossroads and you hit them and kill them. The situation has now turned from the cyclist breaking a read light being the cause of death to a speeding motorist being the cause of death.

ironclaw

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Example scenario:

The smartphone is logging you at 51kph in a 50kph zone some night. A cyclist with no lights breaks a red light at a crossroads and you hit them and kill them. The situation has now turned from the cyclist breaking a read light being the cause of death to a speeding motorist being the cause of death.

This basically is the issue.

Even for companies with trackers, the vans are 'speeding' if even 1km/h over. You actually have to look at the data to see that they were a shade over. Think about all the 30km/h zones (i.e. The quays) Granted you should be observing the limit but going over 30km/h is very easy, even taking off from the lights. Harsh breaking, I'd do that once or twice a week on the M50 for the lane jumpers or the late night pedestrians in town thinking we can see them wearing black in the rain.

Remember, its data being fed into some logic, at a basic level:

Is speed greater than limit? Yes -> Increase risk

Personally, its just a bad idea. The technology isn't smart enough.

Alanstrainor

ironclaw wrote: »

This basically is the issue.

Even for companies with trackers, the vans are 'speeding' if even 1km/h over. You actually have to look at the data to see that they were a shade over. Think about all the 30km/h zones (i.e. The quays) Granted you should be observing the limit but going over 30km/h is very easy, even taking off from the lights. Harsh breaking, I'd do that once or twice a week on the M50 for the lane jumpers or the late night pedestrians in town thinking we can see them wearing black in the rain.

Remember, its data being fed into some logic, at a basic level:

Is speed greater than limit? Yes -> Increase risk

Personally, its just a bad idea. The technology isn't smart enough.

Accuracy of agps data can be way off, so it's not really a fantastic way of catching people out for speeding.

The whole thing seems very easy to manipulate as a user of it. Only turn it on once in a while on a trip to the shops. And then turn it off and hoon around the back roads.

pa990

I just looked at the app.

it is entirely possible for anyone to get a policy number from a windscreen in a car park. ..
And use the app.



How would that work out for the policy holder ??

ironclaw

pa990 wrote: »

it is entirely possible for anyone to get a policy number from a windscreen in a car park. ..
And use the app.

I'm going to the Nürburgring in a few weeks if anyone wants to find out :pac:

birchtree

OSI wrote: »

Is it an Android app? Hook it up to Android Studio and use mock location data.

I'll keep that in mind!

OSI wrote: »

Not a hope the data from these apps is even remotely admissible in court. Dashcam footage isn't even for the most part.

I'm about to get a dashcam. Any good links to read about when the footage would stand up for itself and when not?

birchtree

pa990 wrote: »

I just looked at the app.

it is entirely possible for anyone to get a policy number from a windscreen in a car park. ..
And use the app.

How would that work out for the policy holder ??

They are able to link it on their side. They could tell me whether I have downloaded the app or not.
Can't leave the phone at home either - must travel 500km in the first 90 days.

birchtree

ironclaw wrote: »

This basically is the issue.

Even for companies with trackers, the vans are 'speeding' if even 1km/h over. You actually have to look at the data to see that they were a shade over. Think about all the 30km/h zones (i.e. The quays) Granted you should be observing the limit but going over 30km/h is very easy, even taking off from the lights. Harsh breaking, I'd do that once or twice a week on the M50 for the lane jumpers or the late night pedestrians in town thinking we can see them wearing black in the rain.

Remember, its data being fed into some logic, at a basic level:

Is speed greater than limit? Yes -> Increase risk

Personally, its just a bad idea. The technology isn't smart enough.

AIG are big time into data analytics, so they will try to avoid dumb pitfalls. Well, I hope they will. I'd say they'll be looking into % of your speed relative to speed limit. Which will make those paranoids driving at 25km/h really good drivers.

They say that the risk and thus the premium will not be increased for 'bad drivers' - I think they just don't want to go there just yet. However, they can make any rule they want as a reason why they would refuse or bump up premium next year.

I'd LOVE TO see their algorithms.

BlatentCheek

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Example scenario:

The smartphone is logging you at 51kph in a 50kph zone some night. A cyclist with no lights breaks a red light at a crossroads and you hit them and kill them. The situation has now turned from the cyclist breaking a read light being the cause of death to a speeding motorist being the cause of death.

I very much doubt that this app was ever developed for such circumstances. It's much more likely to be intended for analysing a driver's behaviour over time (with reference to speed, acceleration, harsh braking, distance travelled and so on) and then placing the driver into a risk category on the basis of his or her driving.

I expect attempts to use mobile phones to analyse the Insured party's behaviour will become more and more common (eg health Insurance app might see how much time you spend in pubs or gyms and it feeds into risk assessment, and ultimately premium).

Also the claim that the data only would be assessed positively is a fairly blatant red herring to ease this practice into mainstream acceptance. Once they change their mind they could just rely on previously gathered data. Do they say anything about how long they keep your historic data for?

delahuntv

Obviously no-one commenting has read the terns and conditions or FAQ if the app.

I've covered over 2000miles on it so far in past 3 weeks. Current score of 81.

Only part of score relates to speed. Part relates to time if day, phone use and driving style.

They guarantee it will not increase the premium, but discounts if score is high enough.

You can also choose to have it on manual start - so just record the journeys you want.

Considering my insurance is at a lifetime low of under €400 (high mileage, decent car, 30 years without claim) , I'm happy with it.

birchtree

delahuntv wrote: »

I've covered over 2000miles on it so far in past 3 weeks. Current score of 81.

Well done, I'm at 78.

delahuntv wrote: »

You can also choose to have it on manual start - so just record the journeys you want.

Yeah that works a bit funny. Sometimes it just switches on by itself - picked up when I went for a walk and recorded a journey (at a score of 79?!). And sometimes I manually start it, and it wouldn't record the journey.

Alrite Chief

Gas the cynicism here haha...

Iv been researching it today. My current insurer wants 750 euro for a renewal on last years policy of 390. Not mentioning any names but they can ask my Swiss.

Iv been shopping around and getting quotes 550-650 average. Then all of a sudden this XLNT app based policy is offered for €360!! Pretty much a no brainer with a near identical policy.

For the cynics amongst us:

You pay your premium and further discounts of 10% apply in the first 3 months if you're good. If you are bold nothing can happen. Only way they claw back money from you if you don't use the app for 500km in 90 days or 45 journeys. The next 9 months is just use of the app for your own personal benefit. So delete it if you like.

I wouldn't be concerned about the data being used even if they could. Insurer has to pay out in the event of an accident. Not like you have a prior agreement with our insurance company you promise not to crash. Maybe it could be used for your protection in a disputed liability claim? Who knows.

pa990

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Gas the cynicism here haha...

Iv been researching it today. My current insurer wants 750 euro for a renewal on last years policy of 390. Not mentioning any names but they can ask my Swiss.

Iv been shopping around and getting quotes 550-650 average. Then all of a sudden this XLNT app based policy is offered for €360!! Pretty much a no brainer with a near identical policy.

For the cynics amongst us:

You pay your premium and further discounts of 10% apply in the first 3 months if you're good. If you are bold nothing can happen. Only way they claw back money from you if you don't use the app for 500km in 90 days or 45 journeys. The next 9 months is just use of the app for your own personal benefit. So delete it if you like.

I wouldn't be concerned about the data being used even if they could. Insurer has to pay out in the event of an accident. Not like you have a prior agreement with our insurance company you promise not to crash. Maybe it could be used for your protection in a disputed liability claim? Who knows.

So... What's the minimum time frame you have to have the app or the minimum milage I would have to do before I could discard the app.

ie, if I did 1000km in the first week, could I then delete it and maintain the financial benefits?

Alrite Chief

pa990 wrote: »

So... What's the minimum time frame you have to have the app or the minimum milage I would have to do before I could discard the app.

ie, if I did 1000km in the first week, could I then delete it and maintain the financial benefits?

You're agreeing to use the app for 90 days and within that 90 days you must do 500km or 45 journeys. If you won't follow them conditions they can cancel your policy or request the 30% discount on their 'deluxe' policy you took out.

There is a facility in the app to say you were a passenger in a car, on a bus, train etc after a journey so they won't effect your score.

Im yet to find a negative in such cheap cover.

tomaso11

Has anyone noticed a change over the last couple of weeks?

I've been using the app with no issues since Jan, averaging 78/79... however, in the last two weeks starting recording journeys randomly (usually, 6 to 8 minutes out of a 30 minutes journey).. it seems it starts/stops during the trip.

kirving

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Im yet to find a negative in such cheap cover.

Currently, the purpose of the app is to gather and save data. They're giving discounts in order to entice people into using it, and not applying penalties just yet.

What happens when in a few years, and with a massive bank of data saved by the insurance company, they decide that your risk category is now subject to a premium increase? The data will become akin to your no claims bonus.

Alrite Chief

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Currently, the purpose of the app is to gather and save data. They're giving discounts in order to entice people into using it, and not applying penalties just yet.

What happens when in a few years, and with a massive bank of data saved by the insurance company, they decide that your risk category is now subject to a premium increase? The data will become akin to your no claims bonus.

Who is stating this or is this just a projection? There is nothing to state in your agreement with them this data will effect future premiums with the company. It wouldn't be an even playing field. How would they expect to keep business if they load customers with an extra risk factor. You would just move on.

BigEejit

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Who is stating this or is this just a projection? There is nothing to state in your agreement with them this data will effect future premiums with the company. It wouldn't be an even playing field. How would they expect to keep business if they load customers with an extra risk factor. You would just move on.

I can almost guarantee that there is a clause in the small print that allows them to use your data any way they want, there may even be a clause allowing them to share/sell the data.
Unless they explicitly say they will delete your data after x amount of time or when you stop being a customer then you can bet that your data will be in a database somewhere for analytics to be run on it.
Companies can make a lot of money from peoples data, without users even being aware.

uck51js9zml2yt

Its not a case of using it for 45 days and dumping it.

It must be used once every 21 days.

If the terms are not adhered to they can increase your premium.

I'm at 80 but get get silly readings which I just change to being a passenger.
One thing is is doing is making me conscious of my speed and driving habits which can only be a good thing.


The odd thing is that its an hour out since the clocks changed.

Alrite Chief

Alisha Sweet Harpoon wrote: »

Its not a case of using it for 45 days and dumping it.

It must be used once every 21 days.

If the terms are not adhered to they can increase your premium.

I'm at 80 but get get silly readings which I just change to being a passenger.
One thing is is doing is making me conscious of my speed and driving habits which can only be a good thing.


The odd thing is that its an hour out since the clocks changed.

Thats what I was told over the phone. It must be used for 90 days then after that and I quote "you can use it for your own benefit". You're probably right though as you are using it and would know better than me.

Silly the time being out considering when you are driving effects your score.

One thing they mentioned regarding the data was you may not qualify for the 30% discount next year should you not meet the criteria. Im not sure if thats regarding the use through the term of your policy or the average score.

Alrite Chief

BigEejit wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that there is a clause in the small print that allows them to use your data any way they want, there may even be a clause allowing them to share/sell the data.
Unless they explicitly say they will delete your data after x amount of time or when you stop being a customer then you can bet that your data will be in a database somewhere for analytics to be run on it.
Companies can make a lot of money from peoples data, without users even being aware.

Im not sure there is. They are selling you the exact same policies as available without the app. The only small print could be in the terms of the use of the app. I will check that when I get a chance. Thanks.

Alrite Chief

Further thinking into this. Every company that has your information is in a position to share/sell it to other companies. Whats the big difference here? Your driving habits? Even if they did sell it on and you were now being penalised what information do they have that is 100% unique to you? Im not having that. You don't even share your licence number with your insurer. Having your premium loaded because of information they obtained from a third party would cause all sorts of confusion.

BigEejit

I would doubt that they believe that every bad scoring journey that gets marked as being a passenger is true. Their business has people telling them lies constantly. These guys are all about the risk, and they get that from the data.

I'm pretty sure that if the option is there for an insurance company to screen customers they will use any and all data to do that cherry-picking. There is some serious tech out there that collates data from multiple databases, runs analytics and spits out a nice list of organised data.

If you need something to send you to sleep, look up big data analytics and business intelligence ...

Alrite Chief

BigEejit wrote: »

I would doubt that they believe that every bad scoring journey that gets marked as being a passenger is true.

Have you looked at the app? You click on any journey and claim you were a passenger and your overall score adjusts accordingly. Its not about believing you or not. Thats the data you submit to your own account. Its not a far fetched story to be a passenger in a car.

This initiative is in its infancy and they are offering the discounts to get people using it. Its to promote safer driving and gather data in general. Regardless of whether you're a passenger or driving they still get fed information about our use of the road. Times, speed, phone usage and smoothness of your journey. Its not designed to load a individual. What would be the point in adding a criteria that other insurers don't have.

swanie29

I have this app couple of days and find it marks you low if you brake on speed bumps or moving slowly in traffic. Everyone else find this problem.

Alrite Chief

swanie29 wrote: »

I have this app couple of days and find it marks you low if you brake on speed bumps or moving slowly in traffic. Everyone else find this problem.

Yeah there is a few things like that. Iv an overall score for mobile phone usage of 90 despite not using the phone at all. Should that not be 100?

ironclaw

Alrite Chief wrote: »

What would be the point in adding a criteria that other insurers don't have.

BigEejit is entirely right. Big Data is serious business. Take the US supermarket of Target for example, they have the famous example of being able to tell not only that someone is pregnant but what week they are in. Its incredible the data you can glean from seemingly trivial bits and pieces.

As an insurer, this data is gold dust. You can start to track cars, patterns and usage. If you own an iPhone, it knows where you work and live, and how long it will generally take you to get there and when you are likely to go there. Abstract this to an insurer, they might load people in the IT sector as they may find they travel to work later in the morning but generally stay later in the evenings. They might discount stay at home Mum's as they are only out in the morning and for the school run. The list is endless.

If you think the App is about driver safety or lowering your insurance level, you are sorely mistaken. Its actually the perfect risk profiler.

Alrite Chief

ironclaw wrote: »

BigEejit is entirely right. Big Data is serious business. Take the US supermarket of Target for example, they have the famous example of being able to tell not only that someone is pregnant but what week they are in. Its incredible the data you can glean from seemingly trivial bits and pieces.

As an insurer, this data is gold dust. You can start to track cars, patterns and usage. If you own an iPhone, it knows where you work and live, and how long it will generally take you to get there and when you are likely to go there. Abstract this to an insurer, they might load people in the IT sector as they may find they travel to work later in the morning but generally stay later in the evenings. They might discount stay at home Mum's as they are only out in the morning and for the school run. The list is endless.

If you think the App is about driver safety or lowering your insurance level, you are sorely mistaken. Its actually the perfect risk profiler.

Yes and this app is no different to any other app in which you enable location services in terms of where you live, where you go and what time you do all of this.

Its in the terms of your agreement with the insurer that the data gathered will not be used to increase your premium. As I said previously the data collected is non specific to the individual in terms of what the company are trying to learn about driving habits. Its not in the companies interest to scare off individual customers. Its a competitive market. Why would AIG want to load your premium? They want to keep business.

I never said it was "solely" to promote safer driving.

ironclaw

Its in the terms of your agreement with the insurer that the data gathered will not be used to increase your premium.

Yes,but it gives great insight into an insurance group e.g. Male Drivers, Aged 23 to 25 etc etc. So they can raise or indeed lower this bracket accordingly. So while its not specific to you, it may affect you.

As I said previously the data collected is non specific to the individual in terms of what the company are trying to learn about driving habits.

Again, they are learning about a group and entire sector. A larger sample space is much better for analytic properties. They couldn't care less about an individual, they want to know the group dynamics. So even if it isn't tied directly to you, it will affect you.

its not in the companies interest to scare off individual customers. Its a competitive market. Why would AIG want to load your premium? They want to keep business.

Insurance companies are somewhat in a monopoly. Legally you require insurance so if they raise your premium, you have the option of shopping around or staying with them. If they share this information, most likely as its extremely valuable to risk assessment, your bracket premium will most likely be affected.

Its not tin foil, its just business

Alrite Chief

Ok. We aren't disagreeing with each other. My point was signing up to help with this research, which it essentially is, won't mean your own personal insurance being loaded. The research will effect everyone in the long run possibly. So what do you do? Let everyone else avail of these discounts and continue to pay a premium of 30-40% more. Or take it. Me not taking out such a policy won't stop this happening.

mull13

i got the offer from aig about the app would anyone recommend it and what question do i need to ask before i sign up it sounds to good to be true as i was getting quotes from 1700 to 500 and aig offer of 412 euro i nearly took the girls hand but i havent signed up yet

Alrite Chief

Im using it. Its no big deal. What it is monitoring is stuff that is barely controllable. As in its not even scrutinising your driving. Its more or less just gathering data about peoples driving habits in general. For example the facility is there to claim you were the passenger in a journey. So the journey is disregarded from your score. However valuable data is still recorded for their overall benefit. They don't care. 30-40% off the exact same policy someone else take out without the app. No brainer for me in the end.

Alrite Chief

Anyone find the auto start function doesn't work half the time?

mull13

I have to turn it on every time I go driving . Do you only have to do 500km

Dr_Bill

So doing doughnuts in a basement carpark is the only way to go with these apps? :-D

flutered

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Who is stating this or is this just a projection? There is nothing to state in your agreement with them this data will effect future premiums with the company. It wouldn't be an even playing field. How would they expect to keep business if they load customers with an extra risk factor. You would just move on.

you could move on with a copy of your no claims bonus in your sweaty fist, the said bonus carrying all the details of the app

flutered

there was a thing going the rounds on the www recently, as regards a female employee of a ca company who had an app put on her fone by her employer, the said employer would tell her co workers in the speed she was going on the highway, where she had coffee etc, things came to a head when she had to keep the app on during weekends, she lost her job and now has a claim in for 500,000 or 1/2m, not serious dosh by ca standards

ironclaw

flutered wrote: »

there was a thing going the rounds on the www recently, as regards a female employee of a ca company who had an app put on her fone by her employer, the said employer would tell her co workers in the speed she was going on the highway, where she had coffee etc, things came to a head when she had to keep the app on during weekends, she lost her job and now has a claim in for 500,000 or 1/2m, not serious dosh by ca standards

Most company phones can have their entire data set read by the employer. Its standard practice to protect company secrets etc, so no news there. You sign your life away when you take a company phone in most companies. The days of privacy are well and truly over, so I don't see why people are getting so flustered about this. Facebook et al know more about you than you think

keithclancy

ironclaw wrote: »

Most company phones can have their entire data set read by the employer. Its standard practice to protect company secrets etc, so no news there. You sign your life away when you take a company phone in most companies. The days of privacy are well and truly over, so I don't see why people are getting so flustered about this. Facebook et al know more about you than you think

Interesting that, I work in Germany and my boss isn't even allowed to look at my itemised phone bill, all they are allowed to see is how much the bill is for.

ironclaw

keithclancy wrote: »

Interesting that, I work in Germany and my boss isn't even allowed to look at my itemised phone bill, all they are allowed to see is how much the bill is for.

Most systems that allow a company to deploy in-house Apps and configure the phones for company use (e.g. 'Bring your own device' schemes) allow for the system to read Apps installed, location and other data straight off the device.

All I say is just because its not legal, doesn't mean employers don't do it. The access is there and very easy to use in most cases. Going a step futher, there are areas of someone companies I've work for you cannot bring a smart phone as its the most perfect spy device ever made.

keithclancy

ironclaw wrote: »

Most systems that allow a company to deploy in-house Apps and configure the phones for company use (e.g. 'Bring your own device' schemes) allow for the system to read Apps installed, location and other data straight off the device.

All I say is just because its not legal, doesn't mean employers don't do it. The access is there and very easy to use in most cases. Going a step futher, there are areas of someone companies I've work for you cannot bring a smart phone as its the most perfect spy device ever made.

While that's technically possible, I can say it doesn't happen, in regulated industries in Germany anyway.

Alrite Chief

flutered wrote: »

you could move on with a copy of your no claims bonus in your sweaty fist, the said bonus carrying all the details of the app

Are you serious? You think your no claims bonus certificate would contain extra information? No is the answer. Its a legal document an insurance company is obliged to give you containing how many years claim free, dates of claims, the amount and if they are settled or not. Any addition information is irrelevant on such a document. Just to add to that its in the terms of the use of the app information gathered is not shared with any third parties.

To Elland Back

Alrite Chief wrote: »

Are you serious? You think your no claims bonus certificate would contain extra information? No is the answer. Its a legal document .

There is nothing 'legal' about a no claim bonus. It is just a marketing tool accepted as standard practice by insurers. They are obliged to provide you with a certificate by the Financial Regulator, but not insurer is obliged to accept it and nobody can make them. Current practice helps potential insurers identify your risk profile, that's all