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Who would be called in?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    The Wiki you quoted is basically a piece of spin. It doesn't tell any lies per say but dresses up the truth to make it look fairly rosey. One issue with the Wiki post is the gang member who was fatally shot was shot by several Gardai armed with pistols and shotguns so unlikely shot at 'long range'...
    HIGGINS was shot at a distance, he was shot with a 38 Revolver. Anything over a few metres with that weapon is not a bad shot. Not to mention when he is holding a hostage and about to fire. That's a stressful shot.

    LOUGHRAN was shot after over 20 rounds were shot at the tyres of his vehicle. He (LOUGHRAN) then Pointed a firearm at A GARDA COMISKY and thet resulting action caused COMISKEY and two other GARDA to shoot him. True one was a Shotgun.
    The gang were under surveillance beforehand & up to the attempted raid. They never fired their weapons during the 'shootout' (if you can call it that when only one side are firing). Gardai shot one gang member dead. They also shot and injured 3 fellow Gardai, one other gang member, two hostages and a woman down the street! Again the gang never fired a shot!

    The gang never firing is immaterial a good operator will open fire as the threat appears, remember the aim is to stop the threat from firing. I would be disappointed if the gang did manage to fire.

    Two of the detective suffered minor grazes and the third was hit by some shotgun pellets. The shotgun being replaced as a result of the de-brief in relation to this incident. Its not a weapon designed for this sort of work.

    The series of event created a semi circle of Gardai and sadly the injuries resulted. Its easy to sit behind a keyboard and second guess. Unless you experience tunnel vision first hand its wrong to critic too blatantly.

    Yes the Gardai were successful in preventing the raid, and I'm sure preparation & technique has improved since, but the operation was carried out in a gung ho fashion and I'm sure all of the injuries & fatality could have been prevented.

    How can you be sure ? Im not sure , I reckon even the ARW teams could not guarantee a perfect outcome.

    At the end of the day this event happened in 1990. The ERU was in existence 1 year. They have had 24 years to hone their craft.

    Judging them unworthy of handling a current event by that event is unfair.

    The fact is the ARW train with the ERU so logically by now there should be some parity in the area of operations.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    evo2000 wrote: »
    It wasnt targeting you and i was not being uncivil, but seriously you are checking a post on boards.ie for OPSEC...its abit much dont yeah think? lol

    The yellow card was also well over the top, are we not allowed to question some mod actions, since when is it uncivil to disagree with something?

    [Mod]You are allowed to question them, a PM to either the mod in question, or a different mod is usually the suggested course of action. However, no, I don't think a yellow card was over the top when you publicly accuse a mod of being on a power-trip.[/Mod]


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    [Mod]You are allowed to question them, a PM to either the mod in question, or a different mod is usually the suggested course of action. However, no, I don't think a yellow card was over the top when you publicly accuse a mod of being on a power-trip.[/Mod]

    Heaven forbid! his mod career could be tarnished for life! lol i more accused of him being a small bit ridiculous than anything else, which is exactly what it was, checking a insignificant post on a forum for "OPSEC" when you ve absolutely nothing to do with the army lol


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    evo2000 wrote: »
    Heaven forbid! his mod career could be tarnished for life! lol i more accused of him being a small bit ridiculous than anything else, which is exactly what it was, checking a insignificant post on a forum for "OPSEC" when you ve absolutely nothing to do with the army lol

    I'm a serving member, and IMO (as a serving member) that Mod was absolutely correct to bring peoples attention to the need to observe OPSEC at all times.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    I'm a serving member, and IMO (as a serving member) that Mod was absolutely correct to bring peoples attention to the need to observe OPSEC at all times.

    A mod backing a mod! well i never! its the armys job to worry about opsec, not a mod on a website, if the irish army is being compromised by a post on boards.ie it has bigger issues to worry about.. like who they re giving sensitive information to in the first place!

    Imo i think its ridiculous but we ll agree to disagree sur!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    evo2000 wrote: »
    A mod backing a mod! well i never! its the armys job to worry about opsec, not a mod on a website, if the irish army is being compromised by a post on boards.ie it has bigger issues to worry about.. like who they re giving sensitive information to in the first place!

    Imo i think its ridiculous but we ll agree to disagree sur!

    First off I'm not a moderator here, look again.

    Secondly I don't have to agree or disagree with you on anything and I won't be entering into any more discussion about it with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Evo , pull your head in ffs.

    If the forum decides to protect against posters discussing sh1t they shouldn't, well it's none of your concern.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    First off I'm not a moderator here, look again.

    Secondly I don't have to agree or disagree with you on anything and I won't be entering into any more discussion about it with you.

    It says Moderator under your name? by agree to disagree thats what i ment i wont be bothering to reply about this anymore i thought that would have been obvious...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    [mod] evo2000 if you are here to debate the issue concerned, fine, we welcome you. however if you are here to argue with / about Mods - this will not be tolerated in its current form, in threads in a public forum - so if you have a genuine gripe please use the appropriate channels. Please read the charter for this forum. Otherwise happy posting.
    Any more off topic posts from anyone will be moderated. [/mod]


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭wotswattage


    Zambia wrote: »
    HIGGINS was shot at a distance, he was shot with a 38 Revolver. Anything over a few metres with that weapon is not a bad shot. Not to mention when he is holding a hostage and about to fire. That's a stressful shot.

    LOUGHRAN was shot after over 20 rounds were shot at the tyres of his vehicle. He (LOUGHRAN) then Pointed a firearm at A GARDA COMISKY and thet resulting action caused COMISKEY and two other GARDA to shoot him. True one was a Shotgun.



    The gang never firing is immaterial a good operator will open fire as the threat appears, remember the aim is to stop the threat from firing. I would be disappointed if the gang did manage to fire.

    Two of the detective suffered minor grazes and the third was hit by some shotgun pellets. The shotgun being replaced as a result of the de-brief in relation to this incident. Its not a weapon designed for this sort of work.

    The series of event created a semi circle of Gardai and sadly the injuries resulted. Its easy to sit behind a keyboard and second guess. Unless you experience tunnel vision first hand its wrong to critic too blatantly.




    How can you be sure ? Im not sure , I reckon even the ARW teams could not guarantee a perfect outcome.

    At the end of the day this event happened in 1990. The ERU was in existence 1 year. They have had 24 years to hone their craft.

    Judging them unworthy of handling a current event by that event is unfair.

    The fact is the ARW train with the ERU so logically by now there should be some parity in the area of operations.

    Where did I judge them unworthy of handling a current event?? I didn't suggest that anywhere... I even suggested that they would be better able to handle one now. My points were that the Wiki page quoted was completely unbalanced and that while the operation was a success it was down to faith that none of the other people injured weren't fatally shot. It's also easy to sit behind another keyboard and say they did a great job.

    I think the ERU in its early days had a gung ho, trigger happy attitude. I think they were influenced from above and dead right to have such an attitude as clearly criminal gangs at the time had no fear of Gardai. After a few similar incidents where an extremely heavy handed response was dished out, armed robbery decreased in frequency through the 90s. The strategy worked.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Morpheus wrote: »
    [mod] evo2000 if you are here to debate the issue concerned, fine, we welcome you. however if you are here to argue with / about Mods - this will not be tolerated in its current form, in threads in a public forum - so if you have a genuine gripe please use the appropriate channels. Please read the charter for this forum. Otherwise happy posting.
    Any more off topic posts from anyone will be moderated. [/mod]

    I said what i said you yellow carded me or what ever and i left it at that and got back to the thread, others brought it up not me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I think the ERU in its early days had a gung ho, trigger happy attitude. I think they were influenced from above and dead right to have such an attitude as clearly criminal gangs at the time had no fear of Gardai. After a few similar incidents where an extremely heavy handed response was dished out, armed robbery decreased in frequency through the 90s. The strategy worked.

    Where are you getting this idea from? Why do you believe they were "gung ho" and "trigger happy".

    What shots that were fired in athy were not warranted or required?

    And on a side note I'm happy you now have faith in the eru.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭wotswattage


    I believe they were told to be heavy handed when the ERU was founded. That it was set up to strike fear into the gangs of the era who clearly weren't scared by the Garda response up to that time.

    I don't know what shots were or weren't warranted. Do you?

    Why the side note?? Did I ever say I don't have faith in the ERU? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth again?...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Have the ERU or ARW ever taken part in any of the SOF/SWAT international competitions that are held, e.g. the Warrior ones in Jordan?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    I believe they were told to be heavy handed when the ERU was founded. That it was set up to strike fear into the gangs of the era who clearly weren't scared by the Garda response up to that time.
    Yes I know that but why do you think that? Is it written in a book somewhere, do you know a member of the ERU who told you that?
    I don't know what shots were or weren't warranted. Do you?
    From the accounts written I don't see any excessive discharge of rounds. However you are saying the ERU at Athy were trigger happy and gung ho. Hence the reason for my question.

    If you don't know the answer to this question I cant see how you have formed your opinion.
    Why the side note?? Did I ever say I don't have faith in the ERU? Or are you trying to put words in my mouth again?...

    You called them trigger happy and gung ho in the past. I would not have faith in a gung ho and trigger happy force.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭wotswattage


    Zambia wrote: »
    Yes I know that but why do you think that? Is it written in a book somewhere, do you know a member of the ERU who told you that?

    Why do I think that? It's my opinion. Am I allowed have one or will I just agree with you? I can make my own mind up about the first few years of how the unit operated and I think they were set up to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who stepped out of line.
    Zambia wrote: »
    From the accounts written I don't see any excessive discharge of rounds. However you are saying the ERU at Athy were trigger happy and gung ho. Hence the reason for my question.

    If you don't know the answer to this question I cant see how you have formed your opinion.

    The only 'account written' that has been discussed in this thread is a wiki post with one reference. It doesn't say how many rounds were fired so I was wondering how you can say there was no excessive discharge of rounds. On the other hand I'm not allowed say they were trigger happy with no proof :rolleyes:

    I understand it was in the hundreds so formed my opinion based on that.
    Zambia wrote: »
    You called them trigger happy and gung ho in the past. I would not have faith in a gung ho and trigger happy force.

    That's fine, but no need to make my mind up on whether I had/have faith in them to get the job done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    The SAS would probably be asked to help too. They usually have troops on operations in Northern Ireland so they could drop what they are doing and come down south. Hereford is a short helicopter ride away so if there was Beslan or Mumbai style siege in UCD or Google HQ or something like that they could fly in their experienced troops. It would probably be kept very quiet and Irish security forces would take the credit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,628 ✭✭✭Señor Fancy Pants


    The SAS would probably be asked to help too. They usually have troops on operations in Northern Ireland so they could drop what they are doing and come down south. Hereford is a short helicopter ride away so if there was Beslan or Mumbai style siege in UCD or Google HQ or something like that they could fly in their experienced troops. It would probably be kept very quiet and Irish security forces would take the credit.

    I think it's more likely for the Power Rangers to be deployed rather than the SAS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    The SAS would probably be asked to help too. They usually have troops on operations in Northern Ireland so they could drop what they are doing and come down south. Hereford is a short helicopter ride away so if there was Beslan or Mumbai style siege in UCD or Google HQ or something like that they could fly in their experienced troops. It would probably be kept very quiet and Irish security forces would take the credit.

    Uh, 'operations in Northern Ireland'?

    You know this to be a fact, right?

    tac


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    [MOD] OK. its off to Mitty land for this thread![/MOD]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    I think it's more likely for the Power Rangers to be deployed rather than the SAS.

    Why not? One of the best special forces outfits in the world are right next door to Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    tac foley wrote: »
    Uh, 'operations in Northern Ireland'?

    You know this to be a fact, right?

    tac

    The dissidents are still highly active and the Brits probably have SAS guys watching them around the clock. So if a terrorist situation was happening in the Republic and the Irish government requested assistance from the British government those guys would probably be told to help out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    The dissidents are still highly active and the Brits probably have SAS guys watching them around the clock. So if a terrorist situation was happening in the Republic and the Irish government requested assistance from the British government those guys would probably be told to help out.

    why would we require assistance from the british government? what would the ARW and the ERU be doing while the SAS are saving us?


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    why would we require assistance from the british government? what would the ARW and the ERU be doing while the SAS are saving us?

    The SAS might be asked for advice and assistance. In such a scenario the ARW and ERU guys would have a handful of SAS guys going in with them. The SAS have more experience in these things.

    This is only if there was a major incident e.g. jihadists run amok in Trinity College or UCD massacring students before taking a large number of hostages in one of the campus buildings or an attack on the IFSC and the HQ of US multinationals like Google or Facebook in Dublin or an attack on the Aviva during an international rugby game or a siege in the Point Theatre when some major American popstar visits.

    In such a situation it might be too much to handle for the Irish special forces on their own and they would need help from the SAS.

    If British and American nationals were held hostage - highly likely since there are so many of their nationals working here, visiting as tourists and students in Ireland - their special forces might be brought in to supervise what the Irish were doing.

    In a smaller siege like the one in Sydney recently the ARW and ERU would be able to handle it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Just realised this thread was moved to the walter mitty forum. very appropriate


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    Just realised this thread was moved to the walter mitty forum. very appropriate

    Hence why I am talking about what would happen in the very very unlikely event of a jihadist attack in Ireland.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    The gardai, RSU, ERU, then Army, and finally ARW would all be well capable of handling a jihadist attack on the state.

    No need to request wider EU help at all.

    Youre suggesting that upwards of 15 - 20 thousand personnel (combining all available gardai and army not to mention garda and army reserve) mostly made up of armed units, wouldnt be enough?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Given that they would all be converging on a single location, don't you think that they would all get in each other's way?

    Have YOU tried driving around Dublin recently at any time after 7am?

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭DavidRamsay99


    "The rear door of the C-130 Hercules opened and the four commandoes clad in black from head to toe laden with equipment weapons and ammo stood at the edge of the ramp poised and ready.
    Above them the red light turned green.
    The four SAS men leaped head first into the howling night.
    Below them they saw the lights of Dublin glittered eerily in the green light of their NVG goggles.
    At less than 1,000 feet they pulled their ripcords deploying the black canopies of their parachutes.
    A red dot appeared on the ground at the feet of one of the Islamists standing next to the roof parapet wall of the GPO before it traveled up his back and fixed on the back of his head.
    Phoot!
    His head exploded in a shower of blood and brains with the sound of a bursting grapefruit and he collapsed lifeless to the ground.
    Another rebel turned as he heard a strange swishing rustling noise and the last thing he saw was what looked like a giant black bat.
    The commando with both hands controlling his shroud lines grabbed the jihadist's neck in a vice like grip between his thighs. As he twisted he heard a audible crack.
    Two bullets in the forehead from a silenced MP-5 submachine gun took care of a third man while a fourth ran for the stairwell.
    The curved blade of a Kukri knife took off his head with a single blow and warm blood splashed over the SAS commando's hands.
    "Red Troop check in!"
    Captain Vince Crystal of Red Troop, 22nd SAS Regiment replied calmly into his collar radio.
    "Red Troop in position. Four Alphas neutralized. Out!"

    :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,284 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    "The rear door of the C-130 Hercules opened and the four commandoes clad in black from head to toe laden with equipment weapons and ammo stood at the edge of the ramp poised and ready.
    Above them the red light turned green.
    The four SAS men leaped head first into the howling night.
    Below them they saw the lights of Dublin glittered eerily in the green light of their NVG goggles.
    At less than 1,000 feet they pulled their ripcords deploying the black canopies of their parachutes.
    A red dot appeared on the ground at the feet of one of the Islamists standing next to the roof parapet wall of the GPO before it traveled up his back and fixed on the back of his head.
    Phoot!
    His head exploded in a shower of blood and brains with the sound of a bursting grapefruit and he collapsed lifeless to the ground.
    Another rebel turned as he heard a strange swishing rustling noise and the last thing he saw was what looked like a giant black bat.
    The commando with both hands controlling his shroud lines grabbed the jihadist's neck in a vice like grip between his thighs. As he twisted he heard a audible crack.
    Two bullets in the forehead from a silenced MP-5 submachine gun took care of a third man while a fourth ran for the stairwell.
    The curved blade of a Kukri knife took off his head with a single blow and warm blood splashed over the SAS commando's hands.
    "Red Troop check in!"
    Captain Vince Crystal of Red Troop, 22nd SAS Regiment replied calmly into his collar radio.
    "Red Troop in position. Four Alphas neutralized. Out!"

    :D


    you are chris ryan and i claim my five pounds.


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