IFA support ban on guns.

Nekarsulm

I see that the I F A has rowed in behind the Gardai Hierarchy, and are supporting the Gardai in their attempts to ban semi-auto and pump action shotguns and rifles, and target and Olympic style pistols.
This is but a first step towards banning private ownership, and to have the IFA support the Gardai's opinion that licenced lawabiding owners are a danger to public safety is disgracefull.

MayoAreMagic

I don't really understand this. There is little amount of gun crime in Ireland involving guns on a farm. Maybe they could be stolen and used by criminals, but then so could a knife.

Father Ted Crilly

I might have read that wrong, but do the Guards want people to have pistols instead of shotguns and rifles?

larrymiller

This just reminds me of the 3 letters I got about my gun license. Oops

Nekarsulm

Gardai want a ban on all pistols, and all semi-auto and pump action shotguns and rifles. Then they will move on to double barrel guns. Their fixation is on the speed with which you can fire subsequent shots. There are 9000 such shotguns in the country. Last night there were two gun attacks in Dublin City, but as these were by illegal firearms, the Gardai don't know who carried out the attacks. They do, however, know where YOU live, so no problem cracking down on legally held firearms.

Dawggone

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Gardai want a ban on all pistols, and all semi-auto and pump action shotguns and rifles. Then they will move on to double barrel guns. Their fixation is on the speed with which you can fire subsequent shots. There are 9000 such shotguns in the country. Last night there were two gun attacks in Dublin City, but as these were by illegal firearms, the Gardai don't know who carried out the attacks.They for, however, know where YOU live, so no problem cracking down on legally held firearms.

If you include the time it takes to reload a pump/semi auto, there is no real difference in all types of shotgun.

Disappointed in the IFA...they should know better.

amacca

What happens if you already have one - will they reimburse you for the cost of replacing with a single shot (or whatever is ok in their eyes)

blue5000

Remind me again what did the previous ifa president do before he got involved in mis-pronouncing hectares?

mf240

The lads with no licence are the ones doing the harm. If they want them theyll get them.



The ifa will want a levy on the bullets next and then you can work away.

Username John

Ah, what do lads want semi-auto and pump action shotguns for?

I don't have a gun, and know little about them really. But I kinda don't see why you would need a pump action gun?

rangler1

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I see that the I F A has rowed in behind the Gardai Hierarchy, and are supporting the Gardai in their attempts to ban semi-auto and pump action shotguns and rifles, and target and Olympic style pistols.
This is but a first step towards banning private ownership, and to have the IFA support the Gardai's opinion that licenced lawabiding owners are a danger to public safety is disgracefull.

Probably right, I got rightly reprimanded for letting my gun be stolen a few years ago and the guards arrived at a friends house and asked to see his gun and when he went to get it it wasn't where he thought it was, told the guards the wife must've put it somewhere else and they said was she in Tallaght lately :rolleyes:

Nekarsulm

blue5000 wrote: »

Remind me again what did the previous ifa president do before he got involved in mis-pronouncing hectares?

Are you the owner of this vee-hicle?

Nekarsulm

Username John wrote: »

Ah, what do lads workaday auto and pump action shotguns for?

I don't have a gun, and know little about them really. But I kinda don't see why you would need a pump action gun?

Because they are generally the budget, robust, work-a-day tool suited to farmers. They are safer as well, because they are generally not loaded until the instant before firing, unlike a double barrel which tends to be carried about in the field loaded. They, along with auto loading shot guns, are perfect for pigeon shooting over cereal crops etc. This all stems from the Gardai trying to ban pistol target shooting , and individual Gardai refusing people renewals of their licences. Despite losing hundreds of cases in the courts, where the Gardai were found to be acting outside their powers, they carried on. However a change in the law last October now means that the local Garda district is liable to pay the cost of any case they lose, so immediately the Gardai changed tack and are pushing for a complete ban, rather than be liable for cases where they are found to be acting outside the law.

Cattlepen

Just curious, where did the Ifa say this?

Nekarsulm

Cattlepen wrote: »

Just curious, where did the Ifa say this?

Published in this month's Irish Shooters Digest. They outline their submission to the Dail cross party committee on firearms licencing,
Strange to see IFA on side with Sinn Fein and the inner city independent T'S on that committee.

Nekarsulm

Username John wrote: »

Ah, what do lads want semi-auto and pump action shotguns for?

I don't have a gun, and know little about them really. But I kinda don't see why you would need a pump action gun?

But John, why should a motorcyclist be allowed a bike bigger than 125 cc? , why should a motorist be allowed buy a car of more than 1000 cc? Why should a farmer be allowed to buy a jeep with a 3 litre engine, when a suzuki vitari can be bought with a 1.6 engine?
At the moment every autoloader shotgun must have a plug fitted to limit it to holding three cartridges. So far, so good. But the Gardai then decided that only guns coming from the factory with a capacity of three shots should be licenced. No factory on the planet make such a gun. It's like saying that only long wheelbase land cruisers with a 1.5 diesel engine should be allowed. They don't exist!

cerastes

Username John wrote: »

Ah, what do lads want semi-auto and pump action shotguns for?

I don't have a gun, and know little about them really. But I kinda don't see why you would need a pump action gun?

As you say this when you also say you know little about them? I find that strange!why am I surprised at the IFA? I mean I'm not, but still didn't expect it.
So, all that will be left after this are the fullbore pistols, submachine guns, ak's and other firearms illegally held by criminals.
At least someone came along and stated what a semi auto shotgun and a pump can be used for, they'll go the route of double barrels too? Why it never dawned on me to escape this despotic backward little hole while I still would.

Username John

Nekarsulm wrote: »

But John, why should a motorcyclist be allowed a bike bigger than 125 cc? , why should a motorist be allowed buy a car of more than 1000 cc? Why should a farmer be allowed to buy a jeep with a 3 litre engine, when a suzuki vitari can be bought with a 1.6 engine?
At the moment every autoloader shotgun must have a plug fitted to limit it to holding three cartridges. So far, so good. But the Gardai then decided that only guns coming from the factory with a capacity of three shots should be licenced. No factory on the planet make such a gun. It's like saying that only long wheelbase land cruisers with a 1.5 diesel engine should be allowed. They don't exist!

Well - I guess a motorbikes or a cars or a jeeps sole purpose in life is not to kill something. Whereas a gun's purpose is to kill something?
However - in the wrong hands motorbikes, cars or jeeps can kill - so we have licences, and also tests.

I guess this is why different rules apply?

To be honest Nek - I'm not huge into guns. Not trying to rile you, but I just don't see the big issue with the ban...

Cattlepen

Well if it true I'm finished with the Ifa. They will get zero support from me in the future

cerastes

Username John wrote: »

Well - I guess a motorbikes or a cars or a jeeps sole purpose in life is not to kill something. Whereas a gun's purpose is to kill something?
However - in the wrong hands motorbikes, cars or jeeps can kill - so we have licences, and also tests.

I guess this is why different rules apply?

To be honest Nek - I'm not huge into guns. Not trying to rile you, but I just don't see the big issue with the ban...

But more people are killed using them, they are inherent!y dangerous, on the other hand, legakly held firearms account for very little in the way of accidents and the absolute minimum in crime, does this kind of thing happen in Europe? Why are we exceptional

Base price

I am surprised that the IFA got involved in this. After all they operate IFA Countryside. Seems to be double standards in operation
Maybe the IFA and the Countryside staff don't talk to one another.

Username John

cerastes wrote: »

But more people are killed using them, they are inherent!y dangerous, on the other hand, legakly held firearms account for very little in the way of accidents and the absolute minimum in crime, does this kind of thing happen in Europe? Why are we exceptional

That's true - there are far more cars/jeeps than guns, and far more people using them everyday.

I really don't see what Europe has to do with it.

Cattlepen

If ifa are supporting the gardai on this may I suggest that farmers that this effects, withhold the levies on the factory cheques and request the previous years back. This might get whatever f**kwit that decided on this to change his opinion

vinnie13

i find it hard to take in all the concern about licensed firearms in this country,there are about 200k legally held firearms in ireland so try recall how many times over the last ten years a licensed gun was used to murder someone??

i personally think because gun crime is on the rise from black market firearms with nothing been done to curtail it or knowing where to start the easy target to tie up with red tape and paperwork is the amature shoother.
its ony a few weeks ago by pure accident due to drug raids that machine guns were uncovered,im yet to hear about a arms raid uncovering a huge haul which leaves me to think they cant be caught and never will but as gun crime rises so will the burden on the amature shooter to prove a need more forms red tape.

we are a funny race, insted of dealing with the problem we go after the easy targets it seems to follow in everything we do.

dodo mommy

I wonder what is the reason behind the ifa's stance on firearms.

cerastes

Username John wrote: »

That's true - there are far more cars/jeeps than guns, and far more people using them everyday.

I really don't see what Europe has to do with it.

I mean on what basis is there to cut down amatuer shooting, shouldn't we be harmonising with Europe, other European nations have civilian amateur shooting, we seem to have turned out to be one of the most extreme for controlling its citizens.this country had civilian gun ownership under brutish rule, it seems only ever to have been curtailed under the existence of current and unsurprisingly the successors of groups that were involved in armed struggle.
It hints at their thinking.
Why don't they restrict someone on the basis of actual involvement in criminal activity? No criminal activity, what's the problem, how many legally held firearms are involved in crime?

valtraman

I think the IFA will be very sorry they got into this when FIDO is out in the field killing their sheep and they have little better than a stick to wave at him .The guns on farms are legally held with the licence fee paid . bannying is no way to go

rangler1

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I see that the I F A has rowed in behind the Gardai Hierarchy, and are supporting the Gardai in their attempts to ban semi-auto and pump action shotguns and rifles, and target and Olympic style pistols.
This is but a first step towards banning private ownership, and to have the IFA support the Gardai's opinion that licenced lawabiding owners are a danger to public safety is disgracefull.

Where did you get that, is there a press relaease

Nekarsulm

Username John wrote: »

Well - I guess a motorbikes or a cars or a jeeps sole purpose in life is not to kill something. Whereas a gun's purpose is to kill something?
However - in the wrong hands motorbikes, cars or jeeps can kill - so we have licences, and also tests.

I guess this is why different rules apply?

To be honest Nek - I'm not huge into guns. Not trying to rile you, but I just don't see the big issue with the ban...

Different rules certainly apply.
We are amongst the most tightly regulated shooters in Europe.
To get my gun licence I must provide references as to my character from two people of good standing in the community.
I must give the Gardaí permission to enter my home without a warrant at any time to inspect my gun safe and security set-up.
I must give the Gardaí permission to access my Doctors medical files relating to myself at any time.
I must prove to a Garda of Superintendent rank or higher my reason for needing such a firearm.
And them some person with no practical knowledge whatsoever o shooting watches Arnie in Terminator and decides I am a criminal in waiting, and revokes my licence and can confiscate my gun without compensation.
Did you have to do any of the above the last time you bought a car?

Do you have children? Ever been in Smiths Toymaster or Argos?
Ever seen those "Nerf Rebelle" toy crossbows that shoot a foam plastic blunt "arrow"
Ever bought one?
If so, you are in possession of a restricted firearm, and liable to a lengthy jail sentence and 20,000 Euro fine.
fecking Joke is what it is.

Dawggone

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Different rules certainly apply.
We are amongst the most tightly regulated shooters in Europe.
To get my gun licence I must provide references as to my character from two people of good standing in the community.
I must give the Gardaí permission to enter my home without a warrant at any time to inspect my gun safe and security set-up.
I must give the Gardaí permission to access my Doctors medical files relating to myself at any time.
I must prove to a Garda of Superintendent rank or higher my reason for needing such a firearm.
And them some person with no practical knowledge whatsoever o shooting watches Arnie in Terminator and decides I am a criminal in waiting, and revokes my licence and can confiscate my gun without compensation.
Did you have to do any of the above the last time you bought a car?

Do you have children? Ever been in Smiths Toymaster or Argos?
Ever seen those "Nerf Rebelle" toy crossbows that shoot a foam plastic blunt "arrow"
Ever bought one?
If so, you are in possession of a restricted firearm, and liable to a lengthy jail sentence and 20,000 Euro fine.
fecking Joke is what it is.

Massive +1.
Thanks Nek.

I live in a country where people can rock into a shop on a sunday morning for a box of fags with a double barrel slung over their shoulder, and nobody gives a shyte....

It's Amerikana....put the population in a state of fear.

aaakev

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do you have children? Ever been in Smiths Toymaster or Argos?
Ever seen those "Nerf Rebelle" toy crossbows that shoot a foam plastic blunt "arrow"
Ever bought one?
If so, you are in possession of a restricted firearm, and liable to a lengthy jail sentence and 20,000 Euro fine.
fecking Joke is what it is.

no your not. Crossbows are classed as restricted, true. Nerf rebelle is a toy and doesn't even come close to being classed as a firearm in any which way, the same way as nerf guns were able to be bought before they changed the law to make rules for imitation firearms like pellet guns for airsoft.

i agree with everything else your saying tho.

I think farmers need to make the ifa see they will not stand for this, im very surprised at a farming organisation coming out in agreement with this bull****

oldozer

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Different rules certainly apply.
We are amongst the most tightly regulated shooters in Europe.
To get my gun licence I must provide references as to my character from two people of good standing in the community.
I must give the Gardaí permission to enter my home without a warrant at any time to inspect my gun safe and security set-up.
I must give the Gardaí permission to access my Doctors medical files relating to myself at any time.
I must prove to a Garda of Superintendent rank or higher my reason for needing such a firearm.
And them some person with no practical knowledge whatsoever o shooting watches Arnie in Terminator and decides I am a criminal in waiting, and revokes my licence and can confiscate my gun without compensation.
Did you have to do any of the above the last time you bought a car?

Do you have children? Ever been in Smiths Toymaster or Argos?
Ever seen those "Nerf Rebelle" toy crossbows that shoot a foam plastic blunt "arrow"
Ever bought one?
If so, you are in possession of a restricted firearm, and liable to a lengthy jail sentence and 20,000 Euro fine.
fecking Joke is what it is.

That lying turd of a shopkeep. He told me I needed to go to a center for to learn how to use a gun.

Then get the permission of at least 2 landowners.

Dozer.

Nekarsulm

oldozer wrote: »

That lying turd of a shopkeep. He told me I needed to go to a center for to learn how to use a gun.

Then get the permission of at least 2 landowners.

Dozer.

Sorry dozer, didn't mention those two items because in a farming forum, 99% have their own land to shoot on, and I'm old enough not to have had to do a course.................:)

oldozer

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Sorry dozer, didn't mention those two items because in a farming forum, 99% have their own land to shoot on, and I'm old enough not to have had to do a course.................:)

Yah, twas sneaky an sorta loaded as I would be in the 1% bracket. Just on a flyin visit and seen this thread.
Also old enough to know most of the laws we have are written by Asses. Being a liker of guns and knowing how they work I think I should not need the qualification of owing land to own a gun.
Law should be equal to all in my thinking, but then if I need to hold up a bank I don't need to own land or a license.

Dozer.......

blue5000

I think there is something more sinister going on here.

Just look at the amount of garda time being spent putting in water meters. I'm beginning to think the Irish govt has got really scared about losing control of the general population. Mark my words, it won't be long until every guard in the country is armed and the rest of us, bar drug dealers/criminals will have nothing more than a pike to defend ourselves with, next they'll be trying to take pitch forks off us.

Fair play to you Neks for bringing this up, I hope you signed the petition last year.

Rosahane

A lot of the publicity and statements by the Garda and the politicians that support them with regard to these proposals focus on the theft of firearms and the public safety aspects of firearms "lying around behind doors and in haysheds" and in the boots of vehicles

It is very likely that the same legislation that bans all pistols, semi auto and pump action shotguns will also make it mandatory that all firearms are kept in a safe and possibly in a lockbox when being transported in a vehicle.

So, all those IFA members that have a shotgun are going to have to buy and install a gun safe to get their licence renewed!

Rosahane

blue5000 wrote: »

I think there is something more sinister going on here.

Just look at the amount of garda time being spent putting in water meters. I'm beginning to think the Irish govt has got really scared about losing control of the general population. Mark my words, it won't be long until every guard in the country is armed and the rest of us, bar drug dealers/criminals will have nothing more than a pike to defend ourselves with, next they'll be trying to take pitch forks off us.

Fair play to you Neks for bringing this up, I hope you signed the petition last year.

Have a read of this article that was in the Sunday Independent this week.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/gunmans-bullet-struck-helmet-of-girl-6-travelling-on-moped-31030841.html

Outside of the main story it also states that effectively gun crime is only actively investigated for 48 hours and that they haven't achieved any convictions for any of the 12 gun crimes in dublin last year!

Yet enormous resources have been devoted to defending district and high court cases where licenced firearms holders - the most law abiding section of the community - had to take legal action to have their firearms licences renewed. This strategy has cost the state millions in legal costs and hugely in resources.

blue5000

Judging by the areas of the shootings I don't think too many farmers were involved in those murders, then again I could be wrong.

smokey-fitz

blue5000 wrote: »

Judging by the areas of the shootings I don't think too many farmers were involved in those murders, then again I could be wrong.

But farmers have the most potential to commit robberies.
Alot owe large amounts, make buttons for a living and own guns.
Maybe we could take on the army :P

Poor minister wont know which side to take

twin_beacon

Nekarsulm wrote: »

But John, why should a motorcyclist be allowed a bike bigger than 125 cc? , why should a motorist be allowed buy a car of more than 1000 cc? Why should a farmer be allowed to buy a jeep with a 3 litre engine, when a suzuki vitari can be bought with a 1.6 engine?
At the moment every autoloader shotgun must have a plug fitted to limit it to holding three cartridges. So far, so good. But the Gardai then decided that only guns coming from the factory with a capacity of three shots should be licenced. No factory on the planet make such a gun. It's like saying that only long wheelbase land cruisers with a 1.5 diesel engine should be allowed. They don't exist!

not really a fair comparison, motorbikes/cars/jeeps are not tools that can be used to kill people if they get into the wrong hands. If those guns are stolen, then I'm sure the people stealing them would remove the plug, and increase the cartridge capacity.

I'm on the fence about this to be honest. For the record, I don't shoot at all. I can see their reasoning behind banning those fire arms, but I would need to see some stats on how many licensed firearms that had been stored correctly in a safe have actually been stolen and used in crime. If that figure is high, and/or increasing, then I would back it. If the figure is very small, and not increasing then its just a PR stunt and I would not back it.

Nekarsulm

twin_beacon wrote: »

not really a fair comparison, motorbikes/cars/jeeps are not tools that can be used to kill people if they get into the wrong hands. If those guns are stolen, then I'm sure the people stealing them would remove the plug, and increase the cartridge capacity.

I'm on the fence about this to be honest. For the record, I don't shoot at all. I can see their reasoning behind banning those fire arms, but I would need to see some stats on how many licensed firearms that had been stored correctly in a safe have actually been stolen and used in crime. If that figure is high, and/or increasing, then I would back it. If the figure is very small, and not increasing then its just a PR stunt and I would not back it.

I would disagree with you on this point, highlighted above. Motorbikes, Cars and jeeps can certainly be used to kill or injure people when stolen.
The difference is, if my car is stolen and the thief runs down or hits a pedestrian and kills them, I will not be penalised for the results of a criminals actions.
The Gardaí will not prevent me from buying another car. I will not have to go to a Gardaí and prove increased security precautions in future, in order to buy again. There will be nothing to stop me wandering into the local Car Auctions, buying a €500 vehicle, often without Test or tax, and as long as I have the cash in my pocket, I will be on the road with no questions asked.

rangler1

twin_beacon wrote: »

not really a fair comparison, motorbikes/cars/jeeps are not tools that can be used to kill people if they get into the wrong hands. If those guns are stolen, then I'm sure the people stealing them would remove the plug, and increase the cartridge capacity.

I'm on the fence about this to be honest. For the record, I don't shoot at all. I can see their reasoning behind banning those fire arms, but I would need to see some stats on how many licensed firearms that had been stored correctly in a safe have actually been stolen and used in crime. If that figure is high, and/or increasing, then I would back it. If the figure is very small, and not increasing then its just a PR stunt and I would not back it.

Around 1300 guns stolen since 2010

Count Mondego

Typical facile gesture from both the Guards and IFA. Easy target that won't put up much of a fight and looks like they're being proactive fighting gun crime. The Irish justice system loves a soft touch.

I'd prefer if the guards had guns tbh, they mightn't be so cowardly if they had.

SVI40

rangler1 wrote: »

Around 1300 guns stolen since 2010

But those figures include anything classed as a firearm under our legislation. Humane killers, air guns, cross bows, replica firearms, de-activated firearms, air soft over 1 joule energy, the list goes on.

Sparks

aaakev wrote: »

no your not. Crossbows are classed as restricted, true. Nerf rebelle is a toy and doesn't even come close to being classed as a firearm in any which way, the same way as nerf guns were able to be bought before they changed the law to make rules for imitation firearms like pellet guns for airsoft.

The Nerf rebelle gets away with it because it's not a crossbow at all - the bowstring is connected to a piston so the whole thing acts like a springer airgun and blows the nerf dart away from the toy. So it's closer to an airsoft than anything else, but legally has no barrel so it's free of the entire mess.



This, on the other hand, readily available in dozens of toy stores in Ireland and obviously a toy, is still legally a restricted firearm because there's no minimum draw weight for a crossbow to be considered a firearm.

Sparks

SVI40 wrote: »

But those figures include anything classed as a firearm under our legislation. Humane killers, air guns, cross bows, replica firearms, de-activated firearms, air soft over 1 joule energy, the list goes on.

And they include many which are not licenced. Which could mean unsold stock in dealer's stores, army or Garda firearms, etc, etc. To say the statistics are opaque is an understatement.

Rosahane

SVI40 wrote: »

But those figures include anything classed as a firearm under our legislation. Humane killers, air guns, cross bows, replica firearms, de-activated firearms, air soft over 1 joule energy, the list goes on.

It also includes all firearms, including broken firearms that were stolen from raids on gun dealers, firearms stolen or lost from the defence forces, the Garda and the PSNI if they were down here.
They are quick to trot out the frightening numbers (which incidentally they had to correct almost immediately) but claimed that they were unable to give an exact breakdown of the figures.

Remember this for example, where two centre fire handguns which were handed in under an amnesty "got misplaced" in the Garda station and were subsequently used in a crime.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/amnesty-gun-falls-into-criminal-hands-26285671.html

Interestingly, they can't provide and details of the numbers of stolen firearms used in crime!

Reggie.

smokey-fitz wrote: »

But farmers have the most potential to commit robberies.
Alot owe large amounts, make buttons for a living and own guns.
Maybe we could take on the army :P

Poor minister wont know which side to take

Bring it on anytime smokey

blue5000

Reggie. wrote: »

Bring it on anytime smokey

Sure you'd be as confused as simon:D

twin_beacon

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I would disagree with you on this point, highlighted above. Motorbikes, Cars and jeeps can certainly be used to kill or injure people when stolen.
The difference is, if my car is stolen and the thief runs down or hits a pedestrian and kills them, I will not be penalised for the results of a criminals actions.
The Gardaí will not prevent me from buying another car. I will not have to go to a Gardaí and prove increased security precautions in future, in order to buy again. There will be nothing to stop me wandering into the local Car Auctions, buying a €500 vehicle, often without Test or tax, and as long as I have the cash in my pocket, I will be on the road with no questions asked.

well, you could apply that same logic to a hammer/shovel/grape....
Yes Motorbikes, Cars and jeeps can kill people, however they are not stolen for that purpose. If a gun is stolen, it will probably be used to take or threaten a life.

Reggie.

blue5000 wrote: »

Sure you'd be as confused as simon:D

This is true....never thought of that


I could be the man on the inside :P