Bertie Ahern, Robin Cook and Oliver Cromwell are together in a room...

I've begun to read 'God's Executioner; Oliver Cromwell & the Conquest of Ireland' by Micheal O Siochru.

He opens with a remarkable anecdote, which has also been published on History Ireland.

In 1997, shortly after the Labour Party’s victory in the British general election, the newly appointed foreign secretary, Robin Cook, received a courtesy visit from Bertie Ahern. The taoiseach entered Cook’s office but immediately walked out again on seeing a painting of Oliver Cromwell in the room. He refused to return until somebody removed the picture of ‘that murdering bastard’. Anxious to avoid a diplomatic incident, Cook made the necessary arrangements. The comedian and author Stephen Fry related this story at the launch of the Heritage Sector’s ‘History Matters’ campaign in 2006, and commented that ‘it was a bit like hanging a portrait of Eichmann before the visit of the Israeli prime minister’.

Does anyone know if this story has been corroborated elsewhere?

Bertie Ahern has always been seen as being deliberately amenable and restrained in questions of Anglo-Irish relations. Causing a diplomatic incident like this seems totally out of character, and I smell a rather large rat.

It's possible that Ahern expressed a blithe displeasure at seeing Cromwell lionized in a portrait, and that Robin Cooke removed the portrait in a rather charming, courteous way.

I'm having a hard time believing the original anecdote.

Anyone else have information on this?

Arsemageddon

Bertie Ahern says he didn't actually walk out, but he let his opinion of Cromwell be known.

Here's the story from the Irish Times...

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-says-he-did-not-leave-cook-s-office-over-cromwell-1.893792

Fratton Fred

Why would the Irish Taoiseach being paying a courtesy visit to the British Foreign Secretary?

Surely a visit would be far more formal and wouldn't involve popping in to Cook's office.

qt3.14

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why would the Irish Taoiseach being paying a courtesy visit to the British Foreign Secretary?

Surely a visit would be far more formal and wouldn't involve popping in to Cook's office.

Could have been an official visit to the pm, arrived early and instead of sitting in the car, decided to nip into cooks for a sneaky one.

Arsemageddon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why would the Irish Taoiseach being paying a courtesy visit to the British Foreign Secretary?

Surely a visit would be far more formal and wouldn't involve popping in to Cook's office.

Not necessarily, the Irish delegation could have had other formal meetings in Whitehall but also made a courtesy call to Robin Cook as he was a key member of the British government with regard to restarting the stalled peace process.

TBH I have always viewed this story as an easy way for the Irish delegation to mark New Labour's card before the start of negotiations.

Jesus.

What's the gist of that article, Arse? I'm not signed up to the Times

Arsemageddon

Jesus. wrote: »

What's the gist of that article, Arse? I'm not signed up to the Times

Link worked for me but won't now.

Ahern was speaking at the launch of God's Executioner. Mr. Potatohead stated that he didn't actually walk out of Cook's office (as mentioned in the OP) but he let Cook know that he wasn't best pleased that Cromwell's picture was on the wall.

Jesus.

I think Bertie is full of sh1t

pedroeibar1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why would the Irish Taoiseach being paying a courtesy visit to the British Foreign Secretary?

Surely a visit would be far more formal and wouldn't involve popping in to Cook's office.

Agreed. It's a bull**** story. Anyone who knows anything about intergovernmental meetings (all nations) would know that they are orchestrated down to the last detail. All politicians have minders, there is a pre-arranged diplomatic protocol to be observed and Taoisigh /PMs and 99/100 Ministers do what they are told. No senior politico or civil servant ever ‘pops in’ to an office, despite what the usual idiots want to believe.

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agreed. It's a bull**** story. Anyone who knows anything about intergovernmental meetings (all nations) would know that they are orchestrated down to the last detail. All politicians have minders, there is a pre-arranged diplomatic protocol to be observed and Taoisigh /PMs and 99/100 Ministers do what they are told. No senior politico or civil servant ever ‘pops in’ to an office, despite what the usual idiots want to believe.

I know Bertie is a bit of a chancer, but are you seriously suggesting that the meeting never took place?

pedroeibar1

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I know Bertie is a bit of a chancer, but are you seriously suggesting that the meeting never took place?

I’m not suggesting anything. What I said is clear – re-read what I wrote.

I’ve no inside knowledge, but from experience of working with governments (Irish and others) the story as posted does not ring true for all sorts of reasons. There always is a pre-agreed protocol for visits, both official and unofficial. For example, do you think one of the senior Royals just ‘popped’ out to Heathrow to meet/greet our President on his state visit to Britain? Everything is scripted down to the last detail, who meets/greets when and where, what is included in the visit, who is invited to what and where, who stands where, when they shake hands, for how long, etc., etc. so what was written in the OP could not happen. Secondly, PM’s do not meet Foreign Secs, they meet their PM counterparts, For Secs meet For Secs, and even those have a meeting agenda. Thirdly, the reported behaviour is not Bertie’s style or form, and anyone who knows anything about the man would be aware of that (as indeed the OP wrote he suspects). If BA was told that Cook would like to meet him and even if BA’s schedule did not allow it, BA would try to fit him in having consulted with Cook’s boss. He would not 'pop' in and certainly would never throw a wobbly over a picture, that is the type of guy BA is, a professional politician. It is quite possible that BA made an off-the-cuff quip about the statue of Cromwell outside the Houses of Parliament (put there 100 yrs ago for historically justifiable reasons from a British perspective) but it would not have been a hissy-fit.

Whatever about Tribunals, etc., I’ve had social encounters with BA and a few professional involvements with him and those were 100% honourable and his fairness and grasp of commercial reality impressed me - the same can be said for a few other politicos, but not many.

Seems to me an old queen like Fry got upset because he was not on the 'royalty' invite list and embroidered the story?

Jesus.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

From experience of working with governments (Irish and others).....I’ve had social encounters with BA and a few professional involvements with him

Sure you have Pedro :rolleyes:

I actually do think its entirely possible that a visiting politician could "call" on someone unofficially. In fact I'm certain in happens all the time around the World.

But in this case I don't believe a word of it, simply because Bertie Ahern is involved.

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I’m not suggesting anything. What I said is clear – re-read what I wrote.

I’ve no inside knowledge, but from experience of working with governments (Irish and others) the story as posted does not ring true for all sorts of reasons. There always is a pre-agreed protocol for visits, both official and unofficial. For example, do you think one of the senior Royals just ‘popped’ out to Heathrow to meet/greet our President on his state visit to Britain? Everything is scripted down to the last detail, who meets/greets when and where, what is included in the visit, who is invited to what and where, who stands where, when they shake hands, for how long, etc., etc. so what was written in the OP could not happen. Secondly, PM’s do not meet Foreign Secs, they meet their PM counterparts, For Secs meet For Secs, and even those have a meeting agenda. Thirdly, the reported behaviour is not Bertie’s style or form, and anyone who knows anything about the man would be aware of that (as indeed the OP wrote he suspects). If BA was told that Cook would like to meet him and even if BA’s schedule did not allow it, BA would try to fit him in having consulted with Cook’s boss. He would not 'pop' in and certainly would never throw a wobbly over a picture, that is the type of guy BA is, a professional politician. It is quite possible that BA made an off-the-cuff quip about the statue of Cromwell outside the Houses of Parliament (put there 100 yrs ago for historically justifiable reasons from a British perspective) but it would not have been a hissy-fit.

Whatever about Tribunals, etc., I’ve had social encounters with BA and a few professional involvements with him and those were 100% honourable and his fairness and grasp of commercial reality impressed me - the same can be said for a few other politicos, but not many.

Seems to me an old queen like Fry got upset because he was not on the 'royalty' invite list and embroidered the story?

Eh Pedro, if you read the link I posted you might have noticed that it was Bertie Ahern who was the one who told the story at the launch of God's Executioner. I'm pretty sure I heard Robin Cook mention the incident in a radio interview as well.

A quick google found this

Dr Micheál Ó Siochrú is the man behind Cromwell’s conquest of the airwaves, the co-creator of the TV series and writer of the book upon which it is based. I meet Dr Ó Siochrú, who is also a lecturer in Trinity’s History department, to discuss the leader’s legacy, the problems of history and Bertie’s spontaneous attack of militancy. “Well he said it might not have happened exactly as I recorded,” Ó Siochru laughs. “Bertie explained that, while there was no walkout from Robin Cook’s office, there was an ‘exchange’ over the portrait, during which he made his views known in a forceful manner.” What exactly that entailed we can only imagine, but Bertie seems eager to endorse Cromwellian debate. Most recently, he presided over the Book launch of God’s Executioner, held in the Long Room last month

http://trinitynews.ie/dividing-and-conquering/

pedroeibar1

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Eh Pedro, if you read the link I posted you might have noticed that it was Bertie Ahern who was the one who told the story at the launch of God's Executioner. I'm pretty sure I heard Robin Cook mention the incident in a radio interview as well.

Dr Micheál Ó Siochrú is the man behind Cromwell’s conquest of the airwaves, the co-creator of the TV series and writer of the book upon which it is based. I meet Dr Ó Siochrú, who is also a lecturer in Trinity’s History department, to discuss the leader’s legacy, the problems of history and Bertie’s spontaneous attack of militancy. “Well he said it might not have happened exactly as I recorded,” Ó Siochru laughs. “Bertie explained that, while there was no walkout from Robin Cook’s office, there was an ‘exchange’ over the portrait, during which he made his views known in a forceful manner.” What exactly that entailed we can only imagine, but Bertie seems eager to endorse Cromwellian debate. Most recently, he presided over the Book launch of God’s Executioner, held in the Long Room last month

A quick google found this
http://trinitynews.ie/dividing-and-conquering/

And no mention of just ‘popping’ into an office. Just proved my points, thanks.:)

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

And no mention of just ‘popping’ into an office. Just proved my points, thanks.:)

Not really Pedro, if you bothered to actually read the OP or any of the subsequent posts you would have seen it referred to as a 'courtesy call'. But of course you know best, these things can never, ever happen.

You also stated that the incident never happened and was made up by Stephen Fry.

But yeah, of course your always right even when your wrong.

pedroeibar1

Bored, are we? Looking for an argument? You need to get a life if you choose to pick a childish row on this! The sensible readers of this thread by now know the answer to the inaccurate account.

Jesus.

Why is it that whenever I open my mouth the Mods give me an infraction but others...^^... can say what they like?

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Bored, are we? Looking for an argument? You need to get a life if you choose to pick a childish row on this! The sensible readers of this thread by now know the answer to the inaccurate account.

This forum is for discussion if you want to categorise my disagreeing with you as 'childish' feel free to do so, I can't help being one of the 'usual idiots'.

In two of your posts you have offered your personal opinion that the meeting in question could never have taken place and that Bertie would never have acted in such an unprofessional manner.

In my first post in the thread I provided a link where Bertie himself stated stated at the launch of O Siochru's book that the anecdote quoted in the OP was incorrect as he did not walk out of Cook's office but he did let his opinion of Cromwell be known. I was at the book launch, I heard him say it. The Irish Times link confirms this.

Either provide a link that proves what I posted was incorrect or quote exactly what I said that was incorrect. Something more tangible than just your opinion would be much appreciated.

tac foley

Mr Ahearn would have been even more pissed off if he'd taken the trouble look outside - there is a larger-than-lifesize statue of the late Mr Cromwell parked right outside the Parliament building.

http://www.pocketbritain.com/photos/MtoZ/OliverCromwellStatue.jpg

tac

pedroeibar1

Arsemageddon wrote: »

This forum is for discussion if you want to categorise my disagreeing with you as 'childish' feel free to do so, I can't help being one of the 'usual idiots'.

In two of your posts you have offered your personal opinion that the meeting in question could never have taken place and that Bertie would never have acted in such an unprofessional manner.

In my first post in the thread I provided a link where Bertie himself stated stated at the launch of O Siochru's book that the anecdote quoted in the OP was incorrect as he did not walk out of Cook's office but he did let his opinion of Cromwell be known. I was at the book launch, I heard him say it. The Irish Times link confirms this.

Either provide a link that proves what I posted was incorrect or quote exactly what I said that was incorrect. Something more tangible than just your opinion would be much appreciated.

Read what I wrote, not what you want to see.

I never said there was ’no’ meeting, I said that meetings like that do not happen and that meetings at that level are among equals - Bertie meets Tony, Robin meets (Brian Cowan I think was the minister?) And 99.99% of meetings at that level are like that.

The comment by the OP is

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

the newly appointed foreign secretary, Robin Cook, received a courtesy visit from Bertie Ahern. The taoiseach entered Cook’s office but immediately walked out again on seeing a painting of Oliver Cromwell in the room. He refused to return until somebody removed the picture of ‘that murdering bastard’. Anxious to avoid a diplomatic incident, Cook made the necessary arrangements.
I'm having a hard time believing the original anecdote. Anyone else have information on this?

You give an inaccessible link to a paid subscription site

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Here's the story from the Irish Times...http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-says-he-did-not-leave-cook-s-office-over-cromwell-1.893792

so it - for the purposes of debate - is worthless.

FrattFred dismisses the story with

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why would the Irish Taoiseach being paying a courtesy visit to the British Foreign Secretary? Surely a visit would be far more formal and wouldn't involve popping in to Cook's office.

And you then add

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Not necessarily, the Irish delegation could have had other formal meetings in Whitehall but also made a courtesy call to Robin Cook as he was a key member of the British government with regard to restarting the stalled peace process. TBH I have always viewed this story as an easy way for the Irish delegation to mark New Labour's card before the start of negotiations.

Anyone who knows anything about Foreign Affairs protocols would know that the story is BS (rather like the inanities and non- sequiturs posted by some others).

You then kindly post the probable events –

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Dr Micheál Ó Siochrú [said]…. “Well he said it might not have happened exactly as I recorded,” Ó Siochru laughs. “Bertie explained that, while there was no walkout from Robin Cook’s office, there was an ‘exchange’ over the portrait, during which he made his views known in a forceful manner.”

And if your were a little more diligent in your googling you would have found this
"The Taoiseach has never met Mr Cook unless at a meeting and has never been in his office," a spoilsport Government spokesman said last night, using details and dates and such like to ruin a good story.”

Believe what you want, I always knew it sounded a false note.:) But I am surprised that someone like O'Siochru would prostitute himself to sell a book. Bad form.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Hmmm...is this the same Bertie "I won the money on the horses" Ahern?

I'll take anything he says with a hefty pinch of salt.

Jesus.

Pedro, could you tell me why you felt the need to tell us that you've met Bertie Ahern on a few occasions and that you've worked with a number of international Governments? Sounds like you're trying to make yourself sound in some way important???

Very bizarre

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I never said there was ’no’ meeting, I said that meetings like that do not happen and that meetings at that level are among equals - Bertie meets Tony, Robin meets (Brian Cowan I think was the minister?) And 99.99% of meetings at that level are like that.

That's pretty much the same as saying the meeting as described by Ahern never took place

The comment by the OP is

That's a direct quote from the intro to God's Executioner. Ahern corrected O'Siochru at the book launch. The later link is of O'Siochru admitting he made a mistake here, he clearly states that Ahern told him he never left the office.

You give an inaccessible link to a paid subscription site so it - for the purposes of debate - is worthless.

Text from Irish Times link-
FORMER TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern last night denied storming out of former British foreign secretary Robin Cook's office in 1997 upon seeing a picture of Oliver Cromwell in the room.

Speaking at the launch of Dr Micheál Ó Siochrú's book, God's Executioner: Oliver Cromwell and the Conquest of Ireland, Mr Ahern said: "I can honestly say there was no walkout."

Mr Ahern said: "After the delegation and I arrived at Mr Cook's office, there is no doubt Cook noticed our delegation's discomfort, particularly mine. Cook asked me how I felt and was a bit taken aback with my forthright reply."

The introduction of Dr Ó Siochrú's book details an incident whereby the newly elected taoiseach staged a walkout from the office of the foreign secretary upon seeing the portrait hanging, and refused to return until "that murdering bastard" had been removed.

Anyone who knows anything about Foreign Affairs protocols would know that the story is BS (rather like the inanities and non- sequiturs posted by some others).

I do know quite a bit about this actually. Courtesy calls are not always formal meetings. They happen quite regularly so that members of different national governments can talk with each other off the record, or as was the case in 97-98 the new British and Irish governments could get to know each other before banging haeds together in Northern Ireland. Also worth noting that courtesy calls often take place between officials of different rank.

And if your were a little more diligent in your googling you would have found this
"The Taoiseach has never met Mr Cook unless at a meeting and has never been in his office," a spoilsport Government spokesman said last night, using details and dates and such like to ruin a good story.”

As noted above, courtesy calls are not always official visits

But I am surprised that someone like O'Siochru would prostitute himself to sell a book. Bad form.

I don't think he prostituted himself, he made a minor error in the detail. He was publicly corrected about this by Bertie Ahern at the launch and admitted the mistake in the later interview.


...and finally this line from one of your earlier posts

the reported behaviour is not Bertie’s style or form, and anyone who knows anything about the man would be aware of that

The story has been told by Ahern in public, O'Siochru also states in the quoted interview that it was Ahern who corrected him regarding the detail. Perhaps you don't know him as well as you think?

Here's what Bertie said in his autobiography...

https://books.google.ie/books?id=n_TB4sCKnDoC&pg=PA199&lpg=PA199&dq=murderous+bastard+bertie+ahern&source=bl&ots=of7KYjSTI1&sig=3N4iY_C-luVIodGIWLs5vKK2-fI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XHnqVPPaOoec7gaV1YC4DA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=murderous%20bastard%20bertie%20ahern&f=false

Richard

There's more info here:

http://www.vaguelyinteresting.co.uk/take-down-that-murdering-bastard/

I think Cook saw Cromwell as a revolutionary, who overthrew the monarchy.

Which is true.... But as we know, he isn't fondly remembered in Ireland. Cook should've known better.

pedroeibar1

Arsemageddon wrote: »

I do know quite a bit about this actually. Courtesy calls are not always formal meetings. They happen quite regularly so that members of different national governments can talk with each other off the record, or as was the case in 97-98 the new British and Irish governments could get to know each other before banging haeds together in Northern Ireland. Also worth noting that courtesy calls often take place between officials of different rank.


Here's what Bertie said in his autobiography...

Clearly you do not know much about them as illustrated by your misuse of the term ‘courtesy call’. There are huge differences between ‘courtesy calls’, working visits, official visits and State visits.
The page of Bertie’s autography you linked to is a mile from your earlier arguments, answers the OP so your game is over. Bye.

donaghs

I read a good review of the book, but can't find it now, which pointed out that many of the people in his one-on-one "anecdotes", were dead when it was published - like Robin Cook. So we'll never know...

Arsemageddon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Clearly you do not know much about them as
illustrated by your misuse of the term ‘courtesy call’. There are huge
differences between ‘courtesy calls’, working visits, official visits and State
visits.

You will of course be able to point out where I referred to the Cook-Ahern meeting as anything other than a courtesy call.

The page of Bertie’s autography you linked to is a mile from your earlier arguments,

How?

Arsemageddon

donaghs wrote: »

I read a good review of the book, but can't find it now, which pointed out that many of the people in his one-on-one "anecdotes", were dead when it was published - like Robin Cook. So we'll never know...

This may well be so.

Somehow I've ended up defending Bertie's honesty and integrity in this thread!!!

Truly he is the 'most cunning, the most devious, etc., etc.

DarkyHughes

I read that on wiki.

I'd be pretty pissed off if I seen a picture of Cromwell or Thatcher if I walked into a room. I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to have it removed but who wants a portrait of that bitch Thatcher glaring back at them

Fratton Fred

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I read that on wiki.

I'd be pretty pissed off if I seen a picture of Cromwell or Thatcher if I walked into a room. I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to have it removed but who wants a portrait of that bitch Thatcher glaring back at them

Serious question.

Were you even born when Thatcher was PM?

I assume this is the meeting where the incident was purported to have occurred (Cook had recently been appointed Foreign Sec.).

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1997111200026?opendocument

It seems the Taoiseach did have a one-on-one meeting with Cook, but given the subject matter it was unlikely to have been spontaneous.

Fratton Fred

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I assume this is the meeting where the incident was purported to have occurred (Cook had recently been appointed Foreign Sec.).

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1997111200026?opendocument

It seems the Taoiseach did have a one-on-one meeting with Cook, but given the subject matter it was unlikely to have been spontaneous.

The Taoiseach also refers to Mr Cook's visit, so it appears to have been in Ireland, not Robin Cook's office.

donaghs

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Taoiseach also refers to Mr Cook's visit, so it appears to have been in Ireland, not Robin Cook's office.

Hang on, are implying that Bertie Ahern may not have been telling the truth?

DarkyHughes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Serious question.

Were you even born when Thatcher was PM?

Yes, Spitting Image was the only joy I got from her being alive. I don't think it makes a difference anyway, I've learned more about the troubles when they were over then when they were on going thanks to the interweb.

Were you alive when Liam Cosgrave our Fuherr was alive?

Qualitymark

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Taoiseach also refers to Mr Cook's visit, so it appears to have been in Ireland, not Robin Cook's office.

A picture of Ollie was hanging in Ireland? Doubt that.