Mag capacity and theory of reduced capacity

Zxthinger

the "new York reload" was new to me..

Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCSySuemiHU

Snakezilla

Great video ! if they saw that , it would either make the powers that be cop on a little or do the opposite and theyll let us have nothing but single shot rifles and shotguns !

meathstevie

Snakezilla wrote: »

Great video ! if they saw that , it would either make the powers that be cop on a little or do the opposite and theyll let us have nothing but single shot rifles and shotguns !

How long do you think it'll take you to get 10 shots of with a single barrel ejector ?
With a bit of practice my money is on 15 seconds.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

How long do you think it'll take you to get 10 shots of with a single barrel ejector ?
With a bit of practice my money is on 15 seconds.

Well if it four shots a min with a BP musket was an average. ...

Cass

The mag capacity has always been a joke. For shotguns i think it came from the hunting law saying no hunting can be done with a shotgun with more than three shots. For pistols (unrestricted) it came from Olympics.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

For pistols (unrestricted) it came from Olympics.

More accurately, it came from one particular member of the AGS who'd read the ISSF rulebook...

Grizzly 45

But didnt understand the concept of sticky tape and two or more mags being adhered end to end to achive the same effect of a single 10 round mag in an "olympic style pistol" being used to bad intent.:rolleyes:

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

More accurately, it came from one particular member of the AGS who'd read the ISSF rulebook...

I wasn't, for a minute, suggesting someone from the NTSA, etc. called for this merely that the PTB used it (most likely without consultation) as a basis for the restriction.

IOW the same way they do everything else. Cherry pick the bits they want from various sources, mash it all together into one incoherent ball, and stick a "Firearms Act" label on it.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But didnt understand the concept of sticky tape and two or more mags being adhered end to end to achive the same effect of a single 10 round mag in an "olympic style pistol" being used to bad intent.:rolleyes:

Or for that matter, the point that banning entry-level pistols like the Xesse or Buckmark means strangling the Olympic sports in the cradle.
Seriously, you bring in this nonsense about "designed for" rather than "suitable for" and Olympic pistol in this country is at best permanently hobbled, if not outright dead on its feet.

Zxthinger

Sparks wrote: »

More accurately, it came from one particular member of the AGS who'd read the ISSF rulebook...

do you know if the rule stated that a shooter could only use five shots or was it that their gun was limited such that it was restricted to only 5 rounds

Sparks

Zxthinger wrote: »

do you know if the rule stated that a shooter could only use five shots or was it that their gun was limited such that it was restricted to only 5 rounds

ISSF rulebook is here (pdf link), and the specific rule is 8.7.6.2(c):

In all 25m Training or Qualification events, only one
(1) magazine or pistol may be loaded with not more than five
(5) cartridges on the command “LOAD.” Nothing else is
allowed to be inserted into the magazine or cylinder;

Couple of things to note here:

• There are pages and pages devoted to trigger weights, size and shape of the pistol, the grip, all the important things that would give you an unfair advantage if they weren't standardised. Nowhere in all of this do you see mention of the number of shots the pistol can hold, except to say you can't use single-shot pistols in a 25m match (because they'd be more accurate).
• 8.7.6.2 is a rule about the course of fire, not the the capabilities of the pistol; in fact, 8.7.6.2(d), the rule right after that, is about what to do if the shooter accidentally loads six rounds or more, breaking rule (c). It's hard to load seven rounds in a pistol restricted to five.
• Any ISSF shooter would know this. Anyone reading the rulebook casually from outside the sport probably wouldn't. The reason it's set up this way is because that one rulebook covers everything from the club to the Olympics and so has to cater to both the hand-built pardinis and the browning buckmarks. So putting in artificial limits on magazine size is just not something the rulebook does.

Grizzly 45

Out of a point of intrest,when was that rule intoduced sparks,[as in what year if you know?] As it seems to be rather archaic gooing back to a time when single action revolvers where the norm and most saftey concious people carried their six shooter of any variety on an empty chamber,even ino the age of rebounding hammers.

Sparks

I'm not sure when exactly Grizz, because the rules get tweaked from time to time and it's not archived as well as legislation is, but I know that was the case when I started shooting twenty years ago. Same situation applied explicitly to rifles as well - if you have a rifle with a magazine, use it away, but you can only load one round at a time, that sort of thing. Only shotguns have a rule about blocking the magazine.

Grizzly 45

Sorry I wasnt clear enough ..I meant in the ISSF rules?

Sparks

Yes, that's what I was talking about Grizz.

BrownTrout

Not a fair test, in a messy gunfight, a shooter won't have a convenient blue barrel to put his mags on. Clearly biased and flawed. Magazine restrictions would obviously have an effect on the volume of fire one can put downrange

Cass

This whole topic is hypothetical so what i say must be taken with a pinch of salt as there has never been and never will be an instance of such fast shooting & reloading in the context of public safety.

Browntrout. A few things:

• No such thing as a gun fight. It's based on one person, taking multiple shots, "out of the blue". As we have an unarmed force, and only a limited number of armed response units any such incident would be over before the notification of it was reported to An Gardaí.
• In the video the idea was to portray the fact that whether it's a single 20 round mag or 4, 5 round mags the time between shots including reloading is so minute as to render it insignificant. Hence if someone were of the mind to carry out such a shooting the basis of lower, restricted magazine capacity's would be, to a large extent, irrelevant with only seconds and in some cases less time needed to fire the same amount of shots with multiple mags.
• You say the drum would not be present. What if the person had multiple holsters, a bag with them in it, a jacket with the mags in them, or simply placed them on a wall, item before shooting?

All of this is academic to the point that it's purely for illustration purposes only. No such shooting has occurred here and after 150 years of recognised shooting sports i cannot see that changing.

The point of the video, as i said above, is to show that in experienced or amateur hands a firearm with any capacity magazine or amount of them is to a large extent the same. It would negate or at least be a strong argument against some of the mag limits we have here that seriously restrict some people in those chosen sports.

Zxthinger

BrownTrout wrote: »

Not a fair test, in a messy gunfight, a shooter won't have a convenient blue barrel to put his mags on. Clearly biased and flawed. Magazine restrictions would obviously have an effect on the volume of fire one can put downrange

Having one extra shot would have little effect TBH.

Does anyone know if the recent court case in limerick presented this rule book...

Grizzly 45

Last court case in Limerick was Oct 10th 2014 and the cases were CF pistols,one modular sporting rifle and one .22 conversion kit for a 9mm being liscensed as a restricted .22 for the 9mm as the Super wouldnt handle it and the CS wanted to avoid dealing with it. FWIR there was some exelllemt evidence deliverd by a professor from Galway Uni on the entire subject and the micro details Wm Egam Solr went int[ofor appx 3 hours] its possible the ISSF rules were mentioned,but I cant recall in where or what context.However I dont think the actual ISSF rule book was produced as evidence.
There was a caae in Ennis post Oct,early Nov 2014 and it might have been produced there....

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There was a caae in Ennis post Oct,early Nov 2014 and it might have been produced there....

As far as I know, there are four ISSF-qualified judges in Ireland at the moment. I've not heard of any of us being called to testify in court as to the ISSF rulebook and honestly, best will in the world and all that, if the ISSF rulebook is being used as evidence in a court case and nobody's calling an ISSF judge to testify about it (or someone from ISSF themselves and we have a committee member in Ireland too), someone's sortof doing it half-hearted...

...or someone's just read it off the internet and is quoting it without much experience with it.