Foynes Line

Fsxlover2

Might be a good sign!

road_high

Waterford port at Belview already has working railway sidings right alongside the docks- they are scarcely used, more
so now that Dfds service has been suspended. If that one which is already there and two hours from Dublin isn’t being used to it’s full potential, then why in God’s earth would one be viable to rebuild to Foynes that hasn’t seen traffic in decades?

IE 222

road_high wrote: »

Waterford port at Belview already has working railway sidings right alongside the docks- they are scarcely used, more
so now that Dfds service has been suspended. If that one which is already there and two hours from Dublin isn’t being used to it’s full potential, then why in God’s earth would one be viable to rebuild to Foynes that hasn’t seen traffic in decades?

New mine opening which would be ran similar to Tara mines.

jasper100

IE 222 wrote: »

New mine opening which would be ran similar to Tara mines.

Is that at Pallasgreen? Would it not make sense to run it on existing rail to Cork, Waterford or Dublin? Far smaller investment.

GM228

road_high wrote: »

Waterford port at Belview already has working railway sidings right alongside the docks- they are scarcely used, more
so now that Dfds service has been suspended. If that one which is already there and two hours from Dublin isn’t being used to it’s full potential, then why in God’s earth would one be viable to rebuild to Foynes that hasn’t seen traffic in decades?

Different ports bring different shipping routes and different potential traffic flows. Initially the Shannon Foynes Port Company push for it not IE, and Foynes is considered a "core port" and so is required to have an operational rail line by 2030 under EUs Trans European Network (TEN-T) Regulations.

Jamie2k9

pigtown wrote: »

Irish Rail are seeking permission to replace a three-arch bridge at Churchfield with a new single span structure in order to cater for the potential future re-introduction of freight traffic on the line.

or could it be the bridges are in a poor condition and IE have no choice but to put a new structure in place. It is very unlike IE to be so strategic but then again the boss lives in the area...

IE 222

jasper100 wrote: »

Is that at Pallasgreen? Would it not make sense to run it on existing rail to Cork, Waterford or Dublin? Far smaller investment.

Yeah, if it all goes ahead.

Not sure if Cork or Waterford would have the facilities to handle such material. Foynes is a bulk material port. Dublin would drive up fuel costs in the long run and could be difficult to find paths with current passenger services, never mind any possible increases in the future. Similar could be said for Cork and Im guessing it will be a number of trains per day. Im sure something else is likely lined up to make it worthwhile.

With all this talk and no action on climate change id personally scrap the new motorway and put the €250million or so into reopening the line for passenger services as well and force all bulk freight items onto the railway and see it pay for itself eventually.

Isambard

Cork has but one train each way in most hours of the day. Loads of paths I would have thought

Fsxlover2

Im not sure about it being used for passenger service, i doubt IE could make a profit having trains go to Foynes.

Del.Monte

Fsxlover2 wrote: »

Im not sure about it being used for passenger service, i doubt IE could make a profit having trains go to Foynes.

CIE passenger trains don't make a profit regardless of what lines they operate on.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

Cork has but one train each way in most hours of the day. Loads of paths I would have thought

Was thinking more a long the lines of distance. But you also need to factor in slower moving trains and if Cork was to get a northern suburban commuter service or even other freight services in years to come it wouldn't help.

IE 222

Fsxlover2 wrote: »

Im not sure about it being used for passenger service, i doubt IE could make a profit having trains go to Foynes.

Wouldn't be for a profit on passenger services. I just don't see the logic of possibly investing 100s of millions of Euro into reopening a line and building a new motorway pretty much along the same alignment to serve the same purpose at the same time.

If more bulk material loads could be put onto rail the need for the road upgrades wouldn't be needed while the local towns will benefit from a mode of transport at the same time.

Limerick has great rail potential (better than Cork) if the city was to be expanded and developed more.

L1011

The reality is that the road and rail won't be serving the same purpose. The mine is likely to have a planning condition prohibiting road transit of ore like Tara has - so it has to go to rail. 95%+ of the road traffic on what is being built will never transfer to rail (passenger or freight) - much of it isn't going to be going to Foynes, as part of the scheme is an Adare bypass anyway.

TEN-T needs roads to a certain standard also.

Markcheese

Isambard wrote: »

Cork has but one train each way in most hours of the day. Loads of paths I would have thought

But, Port of Cork are closing down the tivoli docks, and ringaskiddy won't have a rail link..
The old ifi / net factory is next to the Cobh line and has a deep water berth, but its right next to passage west, could be trouble handling a dusty ore...

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Was thinking more a long the lines of distance. But you also need to factor in slower moving trains and if Cork was to get a northern suburban commuter service or even other freight services in years to come it wouldn't help.

um you are saying that Cork wouldn't be chosen for a freight service in case some other freight service might emerge in the future?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

um you are saying that Cork wouldn't be chosen for a freight service in case some other freight service might emerge in the future?

No, Im talking about Cork possibly not always having the number of free paths as it does now in 5 years times whether thats from freight or passenger service doesn't really matter.

Anyway the main point i was making regarding Cork been less likely is the lack of handling facilities and longer distance.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

No, Im talking about Cork possibly not always having the number of free paths as it does now in 5 years times whether thats from freight or passenger service doesn't really matter.

Anyway the main point i was making regarding Cork been less likely is the lack of handling facilities and longer distance.

It will never happen, Cork line will never reach capacity south of Portlaoise unless your running a service 3-5 minutes apart (with signal upgrade). The line has passing loops/platforms at every station except Templemore plus adequate night paths for potential freight.

Not sure of the current specification today but a service every 15-20 minutes is possible with no upgrades.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It will never happen, Cork line will never reach capacity south of Portlaoise unless your running a service 3-5 minutes apart (with signal upgrade). The line has passing loops/platforms at every station except Templemore plus adequate night paths for potential freight.

Not sure of the current specification today but a service every 15-20 minutes is possible with no upgrades.

I understand this and not suggesting such frequencies will be seen between Limerick Jct- Cork in the foreseeable future. The original point I was making was Foynes would be a better option than Cork and offer less potential problems such as conflicting with passenger services, which was the least of possible issues in my example.

Fsxlover2

Is ore the only thing that might go to/from foynes on rail? Isn't there something about some Brexit thing going on and how the port could benefit or something.

IE 222

Fsxlover2 wrote: »

Is ore the only thing that might go to/from foynes on rail? Isn't there something about some Brexit thing going on and how the port could benefit or something.

I think there building a container facility and kind of hoping for Dublin to clog up if theres a hard brexit. They've big ideas of creating a cargo hub acting as a gateway between Europe and North America taking in the mega sized ships but i think they'll need a lot of shipping companies to play ball with them for that to happen.

Fsxlover2

IE 222 wrote: »

I think there building a container facility and kind of hoping for Dublin to clog up if theres a hard brexit. They've big ideas of creating a cargo hub acting as a gateway between Europe and North America taking in the mega sized ships but i think they'll need a lot of shipping companies to play ball with them for that to happen.

Ah so Foynes probably wants a hard brexit then, but then again it might hurt them with less UK ships

IE 222

Fsxlover2 wrote: »

Ah so Foynes probably wants a hard brexit then, but then again it might hurt them with less UK ships

Hard to say really, maybe worst case scenario Dublin & Rosslare could handle just the RO/RO while the bulk of containers move to Waterford, Cork and Foynes.

I wouldn't of thought much of Foynes traffic goes to or from the UK. Its mainly bulk minerals, fuels and building materials they deal with as far as i know.

I think its possible should Brexit happen and clog up Dublin port with custom checks rail could play a part. The government sould look at setting up some sort custom check drop off rail yard outside the M50 and offer a subsided rail transfer for containers to whatever port needed. It would help relieve the ports and cut number of staff required while also helping to cut down on carbon emissions.

Isambard

i really think most of the ideas about Foynes are cloud cuckoo land. It is and will stay a local port serving local needs. The only delays Brexit will cause will be traffic between us and the UK, and there will be likely less of that. I'd wager most traffic through Irish ports with the exception of ro-ro isn't UK orientated.

As for a rail yard near the M50, words fail me.

London Correspondent

Isambard wrote: »

i really think most of the ideas about Foynes are cloud cuckoo land. It is and will stay a local port serving local needs. The only delays Brexit will cause will be traffic between us and the UK, and there will be likely less of that. I'd wager most traffic through Irish ports with the exception of ro-ro isn't UK orientated.

As for a rail yard near the M50, words fail me.

I don't see any evidence that Foynes is a local port serving local needs. Quite the opposite in fact.

According to statistics from the Department of the Marine it would appear to be the State's second busiest port.

Table 10A: Tonnage of goods received classified by port and detailed region of trade for key ports, 2016 (in ‘000)
Detailed region of trade Port Total
Bantry Bay 185
Cork 5,737
Drogheda 609
Dublin 15,177
Galway 460
Rosslare 954
Shannon Foynes 8,333
Waterford 1,122

Total 32,578 (in '000)

1 The activity of all other Irish ports not listed above amounts to a total of 1,166,000 tonnes

source:https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/spt/statisticsofporttraffic2016/

Not sure why words fail you for a railfreight yard near the M50?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

i really think most of the ideas about Foynes are cloud cuckoo land. It is and will stay a local port serving local needs. The only delays Brexit will cause will be traffic between us and the UK, and there will be likely less of that. I'd wager most traffic through Irish ports with the exception of ro-ro isn't UK orientated.

As for a rail yard near the M50, words fail me.

Foynes serves the whole country. Its takes in coal, sand, road grit and the likes which are distributed throughout the country as well as local needs.

Depending on the type of Brexit many haulage companies may choose to skip.the land bridge and head directly to France which in the short term will cause major issues.

RO/RO is a lot harder to deal with than containers. At least containers can be stacked ect. Most tractor units and drivers will travel with RO/RO and not all port serve RO/RO needs.

Rail yard is not a new idea and was a possibility instead of the port tunnel. Whats the difference between buying up premium and limited land around Dublin port to park trucks than cheaper green field sites outside the city. Any major delays trying to enter these custom yards will lead to congestion and a build up of trucks parked likely closing the tunnel, effecting M1 and M50. At least outside of the city the driver drops the load off customs do their checks and its loaded onto a train and taken into the city when cleared and ready for sailing just in time.

Isambard

how much extra time will it take loading an entire train just to travel into the docks from the M50, and how much to unload it? That's not how road haulage works. The part of the plan about having Customs pre-clearance might be useful, but the freight would stay on the truck I don't doubt.

Frankly we'll be in enough trouble if the UK crash out of the EU without adding costs

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

how much extra time will it take loading an entire train just to travel into the docks from the M50, and how much to unload it? That's not how road haulage works. The part of the plan about having Customs pre-clearance might be useful, but the freight would stay on the truck I don't doubt.

Frankly we'll be in enough trouble if the UK crash out of the EU without adding costs

How long do you think these customs checks take.....


Loading a train will be a fraction of the time taken to check goods. The idea would to cut down on costs and use one major customs yard and cut down on scale needed at other ports.

Fsxlover2

IE 222 wrote: »

How long do you think these customs checks take.....


Loading a train will be a fraction of the time taken to check goods. The idea would to cut down on costs and use one major customs yard and cut down on scale needed at other ports.

Wouldn't certain cargo have to go by train anyway?

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

Foynes serves the whole country. Its takes in coal, sand, road grit and the likes which are distributed throughout the country as well as local needs.

That is correct.
The last rail traffic to and from Foynes was ore from the Silvermines or Kilmastulla for export from Foynes, and coal and oil imported through Foynes for the Asahi plant in Ballina, now closed.

IE 222

Fsxlover2 wrote: »

Wouldn't certain cargo have to go by train anyway?

Not useless its been directed too as part of the operating conditions such as the ones in place with Tara.

Some of the more dangerous items such as the ammonia for IFI were transported by rail but i don't think it was required to by operating conditions it was just chosen and viewed as the safest option.