Foynes Line

Hibernicis

From the C & AG's report - the extent to which the Foynes project failed to comply with the PSC is breathtaking. Ryan's absolute arrogance laid bare.

Auld Slapper

Who'd have guessed 😥

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672447#Comment_122672447

i'm not.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672467#Comment_122672467

no as it is nothing to do with ryan given the reinstatement was committed to before he came into government.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672056#Comment_122672056

You are waffling again and giving incorrect information. There was a derogation where the cost was not justified and the cost was not justified. There will never be traffic to a justifiable extent on this line. The first train the day it opens may well be the last one as well

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674188#Comment_122674188

the derogation for where the cost is not justified only applies to where a port never had a rail line and it would be extremely difficult to implement a line due to tunnels being required as an example.
other rail accesssable 10t ports would have to exist also for it to completely apply.
in the case of foynes there is an existing line and all that was required was relaying, signalling and modifications and other works to bridges, meaning the cost is not justified derogation doesn't apply because the work is easily done.

Markcheese

Is there a minimum number of services ? I'm kinda of surprised that the line wasn't just cleared and sprayed ,and a inspection vehicle , or rail digger driven up the line once a year

there's the line - nothing to see here , now move on -

In fact that would have the logical thing to do - a rail line is available, and can quickly be upgraded,if and when rail customers become available.

Auld Slapper

There's zero point engaging with him

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674726#Comment_122674726

This is complete and utter made up crap. You have been asked for a source on numerous occasions and have never provided one. The basis for exemptions is deliberately worded in a vague manner and has none of this detail, that's not the way the EU treaties operate and is not the way they are implemented. It is open to the Government to apply for an exemption if it chose to do so. You are simply making up this.

And in any event, the deadline for rail connectivity to TEN-T ports is so far out as to make this a meaningless factor in the argument regarding reopening the Foynes line.

Accept it for what it is - an ill thought out vanity project by a very unsatisfactory soon to be ex-Minister.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673132#Comment_122673132

Thanks for this. Not alone have you confirmed that you haven't a clue what you are talking about, you are also making it crystal clear that you haven't even read the C & AG's report, which states that Department of Transport, as lead funder, was the approving authority for the project and that the approvals were given during the period of office of the current Minister (Ryan).

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122674726#Comment_122674726

You are waffling and making it up as you go along. The Ten-T derogation was if it was not viable, nothing about existing railway line.

This is a vanity project and is no commercial justification even at significant subsidisation levels. It was never be used

Cookiemunster

This project was kicked off by SFPC. It's neither a vanity project nor a solo run from Ryan.

https://www.sfpc.ie/limerick-to-foynes-rail-reinstatement/

Recognising the importance of its reinstatement, Shannon Foynes Port Company commissioned Irish Rail to undertake the following preliminary works in order to enable the reopening of the Foynes to Limerick line for freight purposes in the short to medium term.

Scoping study – completed in 2014

Preliminary Design Stage – completed 2015

Detailed Design – completed 2019

These preliminary works were funded by Shannon Foynes Port Company and co-funded by the EU’s Connecting Europe facility. The reinstatement of this line is now ready to commence main reinstatement works.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672467#Comment_122672467

Those reports aren't worth the paper they're written on. They have all sorts of get out clauses in them incase the report is completely wrong. Like we had a report a few years back that the Children's hospital be built in Phibsboro, the suburb with the worst traffic in the country. And when it (the report) was questioned, the excuse was that logistics and traffic not in the #termsofreference.

They're usually commissioned by people know nothing about the subject matter and are done by people who know nothing about the subject matter.

Everyone in Ireland that's involved in infra or logistics or the railway knows that we need rail freight connected to all our ports. Why do we need a report on this? How many pre existing reports on this are there? How much do these reports cost? why do they take so long?

Case in question, Foynes line is on Phase 2 already. Total cost will be under €200m… Metro has spent €250m on reports and has been on the books in one form or another for the last 20 years, and a shovel hasn't even been put in the ground.

There should be 1 report, which takes 6 months to complete, then go or no go.

This business with endless reports and impact studies and JR's and years in planning…. its rubbish.

We need it, just build it.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676185#Comment_122676185

What are you talking about ??

The Comptroller & Auditor General's report on the Public Services for the year ended 31 December 2023 deals with matters arising from the audits of the appropriation accounts prepared by the Accounting Officers of government departments and offices and examinations of the internal accounting controls operated by government departments and offices. It does not mention the justification/merits or otherwise of the Foynes reopening or any other individual project. In section 9 of the 2023 report it contrasts the handling of two rail infrastructure projects. The metro link project was found to have been broadly and substantially compliant with the Public Spending Code, whereas the Foynes project was found to have broken pretty much every rule in the book.

The relevance of this is that one poster has continuously claimed that that all necessary investigations were carried out in relation to the Foynes project, and that all rules had been complied with. Which was pointed out to them as wrong at the time and has now been confirmed in this report.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676131#Comment_122676131

I like the way you did that. The project was "kicked off" by…. 🙄 As is very clear from the C & AG's report, the Department of Transport, as lead funder,  was the approving authority for the project and that the approvals were given during the period of office of the current Minister (Ryan). It's Ryan's baby and it is nothing other than a desperate attempt to appear relevant and to leave a legacy. In the long term it is likely to do considerable damage to the cause of rail transport in general and freight rail in particular.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676268#Comment_122676268

And which one is built (or nearly built) and which one isn't?

I get what you're saying, but years of being bogged down in paper and tape is completely unacceptable.

They didn't follow pointless timewasting reports… so what?

Which was pointed out to them as wrong at the time and has now been confirmed in this report.

So a report on a report?

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676305#Comment_122676305

So what you're trying to say is that SFPC are lying and they didn't actually organise the scoping study and detailed design of the project?

Look, I've no love for Ryan and I can't wait until he's out of office, but this is not in any way Ryan's baby. And restoring a freight line in Co Limerick was never going to be a project that would leave a legacy for him.

You need to get past your hatred of the man.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676500#Comment_122676500

Metrolink is on a totally different scale to foynes rebuild.

Other than project management practices, the 2 projects are incomparable, on budget, timescale or complexity.

If anything the greatly reduced complexity of Foynes line compared to metrolink is why you would expect them to follow proper Phase Gates and decision making processes through the project, there is far less effort in doing so for a "small" project like this than there is for Metrolink. And yet metrolink could do it all and foynes cant

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676570#Comment_122676570

I'm not gonna dispute that.

Metrolink is a huge project (probably the biggest in the history of the state), no doubt. BUT, it's going on 20 years, and all we have for it is reports. Foynes will cost around 1/60th of what metrolink will cost, is it, as a project 60 times bigger (Personally I don't think it's that high, maybe 20 or 30 times)?

There has to be a cut off point, it's not ok to have 20 years of reports and recommendations at a cost of €250m to the tax payer.

I know it's off topic but I personally think Metrolink will not be built or if it is, I'll be retired by the time it's completed (That's hard sell, like we're asking the taxpayer to pay for something their kids will use to get to commute).

Foynes skipped a few unnecessary reports / studies, so what. Something we need has been built.

Economics101

@Beta Ray Bill: "Everyone in Ireland that's involved in infra or logistics or the railway knows that we need rail freight connected to all our ports. Why do we need a report on this? How many pre existing reports on this are there? How much do these reports cost? why do they take so long?"

That's fine in general. Except there is one little problem with Foynes: it's on the wrong side of the country for routing of container ships.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676876#Comment_122676876

Something that is needed will be used. This will not be used, There is no business case and no customers. As well the goods coming into and going out if foynes are not suitable to rail. In general as we are a small island using rail to deliver freight is not cost effective and will not be used.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676517#Comment_122676517

The Scoping report was completed in 2014 before the advent of the new Limerick/Foynes road. Just as a bit of context the SFPC preferred route for the new road was along the bank of the Shannon all the way into Limerick as this was the shortest route into Limerick which was never a runner. Incorporating a Motorway to Rathkeale, the Adare bypass and connecting at Patrickwell always was much more sensible.

This is Ryan's baby he fast tracked it just like he slow tracked the Limerick to Cork motorway. Just because it was scoped and designed was no reason to avoid stage 1&2 of CPAC process and fast track stage 3&4 as Hibernicus posted see below

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672467#Comment_122672467

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676517#Comment_122676517

Whatever Scoping Study and detailed design SFPC had done clearly weren't in compliance with the PSC. That was probably fine at the time, as they are a commercial semi-state company they can pursue such projects and raise funds themselves.

When funding was being provided by the DoT, PSC rules came into play. The PSC was basically ignored for this project, it would be interesting to know if such a level of non-compliance has ever occurred before. The DoT know the process inside out and are constantly bringing projects through it. Why was this project any different?

I generally defend Ryan over on the Roads subforum but this genuinely does seem to be his baby. I seriously doubt that DoT staff just decided to ignore the PSC. According to the C&AG's report, they skipped Stages 1 and 2, at Stage 3 they ditched all previous templates instead cobbling together some sort of detail brief and procurement strategy, then just ploughed on without getting Decision Gate 2 Pre-tender Approval approval. And how the feck did they only partly comply with Contract Award!? Someone was clearly waving it through at each step and there is no way it was civil servants, they are fixated on following procedures.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122676948#Comment_122676948

Agreed, even in terms of bulk Carrier ships you'd be lucky to see more than 8 in a month at Foynes.

And that's the problem, most of the freight is coming through Dublin Port, and most of the freight going through Dublin port wasn't produced in Dublin or the final destination isn't Dublin

There is no room to expand Dublin port and on top of that there a Developers eyeing it up.

Some IDIOT decided to rip out most of rail in and out of Dublin port in favour of roads/trucks, and look where that has got us.
Rail traffic can only cross the east wall road before 7am, this severely limits freight operations by rail. There's a cut of wagons there most mornings that I get the swords express in.

The business is there, the supporting infra is not.

Foynes line is part of getting that infra in place, build it and they will come.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679205#Comment_122679205

From what you say about the restrictions on access and the other problems at Dublin, it would appear that Waterford (Belview) should have far more potential, if only a bit of strategic thinking about supporting moves were done.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679233#Comment_122679233

You're point is valid, and Belview is already kitted out (a lot better than Dublin port is in terms of comparative size) for rail freight. and it has good links out on rail and the port supports containers and bulk materials.

However, Belview (to me) seems to be at development capacity, the draft depth is only 8-9M (Dublin port is 11 or 12 I think) and they cannot expand North East because of a meander and confluence with the Barrow (I don't know for sure but is building a port on the confluence sound idea?). They also cant go South West, as the water will become to shallow.

Foynes has a 20M draft, That means BIG ships can potentially go there (Not so much container ships but ships carrying very heavy cargo). Yes, the Infra needs to be developed (the new Jetty is already open as far as I am aware), and this rail way is the first part of it. The finished plan is to expand the port on to the Island. https://www.sfpc.ie/foynes-island-development/

I really think they have the horse before the cart on this one and are (for once) doing things right.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122677247#Comment_122677247

I agree the Island is small.

However we need to min max the resources we. Diesel trucks are highly inefficient in comparison to Diesel Rail, even less so if we ever get to full electrification of the line.

There is also greenhouse gas emissions to consider.

But by far, the biggest issue coming is the shortage of HGV drivers that's on the horizon. I was in Scotland just after covid ended. Trust me, you do not want a shortage of HGV drivers.

The plan for freight is clear

Rails to every port, 4 or 5 rail distribution hubs across the country, HGV's will do the final X miles.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679942#Comment_122679942

The problem with the rail distribution hub is that Foynes isn't a container port. More generally, despite most of our main ports being rail connected on paper, those connections are of limited practical use. Belview is the best but as you mentioned previously, it has it's own limitations.

Rosslare would be the best port in terms of the infrastructure it has and is currently developing and it has a rail connection (plus the port itself is owned by our national rail operator). The problem is that the rail line it is connected to is single track, is limited by tunnels, is in danger of eventually falling into the sea and despite being connected to the capital city, rail capacity is taken up by passenger services.

The solution for Rosslare would be a connection from north of Enniscorthy to the Waterford line around Muine Bheag (reopening the south Wexford line isn't a realistic alternative, trucks would have containers at their destination before they'd be unloaded at a hub if going via Waterford). You could then create a distribution hub at Cherryville and distribute to/from a large chunk of the country. That would require a >30km new build rail line, possibly requiring tunnelling at Mount Leinster, which would be extremely expensive, but it would also allow passenger services from Wexford to access Hueston alleviating much of the issue of lack of passenger capacity through Wicklow.

It is clear that the Foynes Line was seen as an easy win and ticked a bunch of boxes for certain ideologues, hence money was thrown at it with minimal oversight. The AISRR has the same issues, proposing reopening Victorian lines which run through sparsely populated countryside which achieves very little. If rail freight is going to work, it needs a more strategic approach than just investing money in reopening a line because it's the easiest thing to do.

Getting back on topic, it would be interesting to see a feasibility study on a link from west of Adare to the Dublin - Cork line north of Charleville. Upgrade the Foynes Line for passenger services and add stations at and east of Adare, station at Croom and P&Rs also. That would allow for commuter services as well as Limerick - Cork trains (20km shorter than via Limerick Junction). It would be 25km new build but c.5km of the old alignment on the Cherryville end is still visible on Google Maps and the land is flat. Again very expensive but if we want to create modern usable infrastructure, not just trying to replicate something which failed a century ago.

Cookiemunster

I'd love to see a new build line all the way to Galway, but I won't be holding my breath on it.

The issue with rail P&R around Limerick is that unless you work in Raheen or the city center, it's not much use to you. There are no rail lines near UL/Plassey or heading out to Shannon. Most would stay in their cars.

Cookiemunster

Anyways, back to the actual construction. Here's the latest video from DroneHawk.

https://youtu.be/aN3iyOWwANA?si=D3MkD3uyyADa4VrK

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684569#Comment_122684569

Rosslare has a rail line to Waterford too and that is not falling into the sea.