Jumps racing for the small owners??

FIVE2_THREE

sirdes wrote: »

And where are they getting these top horses. They are buying them off small owners who are cashing out because the prize money is not good enough for them to take a chance and hold on to the horse.

That's capitalism is it not ? this is a business.

FIVE2_THREE

theaceofspies wrote: »

http://www.irishracing.com/cards/Naas_Sun_22nd_Feb_2015_4_50.html

How is this good for racing?

Meanwhile more taxpayers money is being thrown at Champions Weekend. Coolmore et al are laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile 500+ people wait on a trolley daily for attention in our public hospitals while much needed resources in a bailed out economy go towards the Holy Grail of increased prizemoney. The whole thing is a disgrace.

You to can be rich. rich is not a status reserved for a few.

FIVE2_THREE

Thud wrote: »

Declarations for the race in the first post:
http://www.irishracing.com/cards/Naas_Sun_22nd_Feb_2015_4_50.html

a 3 horse thriller!! all is good in NH racing :rolleyes:

So none of the small owners want 4th place ? last I checked 4th place does pay out.

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

Was it always the case that the rich guys had such a monopoly and have the buying power to pay 30 times plus what the man in the street can and then send them to any number of trainers.

Of course it was. the rich will always have have a strong hand that's why people should work hard and rise to a certain status where they to can compete. don't forget most of the rich were once the man in the street. John Magnier left school at 16 and worked his way up. Vincent O'brien didn't inhered anything He worked his way up.

FIVE2_THREE

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You're not understanding what I'm saying. there is a reason why those top 4 owners dominate. and thats because they have dedicated their pocket to doing so. you can't blame the New York yankees or Manchester United if they win championships becuse they invest into their teams. Giggenstown and JP attract so much to the jumps industry. take away their horses and you have unheralted animals winning the top races. the owners are not the starts of the sport the horses are. take a way those top 4 owners and you will have less betting and lower track attendence because they have the horses all the people want to see and bet on. take away those top 4 owners and Ireland will have hundreds of people unemployed. Coolmore,Giggenstown and JP helps Ireland in ways that a little guy can only dream about. would you rather Irelands unemplyement be 10 points higher so that an onwer with a 5 horse stable can win the gold cup ?

With respect I don't think you understand the argument. The niceties of the debate are irrelevant.

Joe soap see millions of taxpayers money going into the pocket of Rich Ricci, that's all. I am waiting for an opportunistic politician to pick this up and run with it. When he or she does it will be very hard to resist.

FIVE2_THREE

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

That's capitalism is it not ? this is a business.

Strange business that is funded by the taxpayer?

Shemale

Plenty of very wealthy people left school.

Dr O Brien is the greatest trainer ever with some eye for a horse and you think we can copy his wealth without his ability, the support of Magniers syndication technique and Sangsters millions, a perfect storm if you will. Without O Brien and Sangster Magner could still be wealthy but nowhere near as wealthy as he is.

Both of these men made most of their money breeding flat horses not sure how it ties in with this thread but we know you love bring Coolmore into every topic.

I cant think of many mega owners of nh horses from the last 300 years that won as many grade 1s as the current crop of relatively young super rich owners, perhaps you could throw a few names my way

sirdes

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

That's capitalism is it not ? this is a business.

Of course but I don't get your point. The best horse's will always rise to the top no matter who own's them but the point I'm trying to make is that smaller owner's need more incentive to hold on too the good horse and race them themselves and this creates a larger pool of owners at the top level and more competitive racing

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

Plenty of very wealthy people left school.

Dr O Brien is the greatest trainer ever with some eye for a horse and you think we can copy his wealth without his ability, the support of Magniers syndication technique and Sangsters millions, a perfect storm if you will. Without O Brien and Sangster Magner could still be wealthy but nowhere near as wealthy as he is.

Both of these men made most of their money breeding flat horses not sure how it ties in with this thread but we know you love bring Coolmore into every topic.

I cant think of many mega owners of nh horses from the last 300 years that won as many grade 1s as the current crop of relatively young super rich owners, perhaps you could throw a few names my way

No. I'm quite sure that Magnier and JP made more money through currency manipulation/trade. I'm from the world of flat racing so there for I bring up flat racing often.

FIVE2_THREE

sirdes wrote: »

Of course but I don't get your point. The best horse's will always rise to the top no matter who own's them but the point I'm trying to make is that smaller owner's need more incentive to hold on too the good horse and race them themselves and this creates a larger pool of owners at the top level and more competitive racing

Not necessarily. Big Owners who buy from small owners are no different from pin hookers who buy at the sales with intention to resale at a profit. despite the gloom and doom being displayed in this thread there are some "little owners" who are in the business of selling. in NH racing your horse is one jump away from things going wrong so there for. If you have one of the bigger owners offering you good money you sale. lord knows a big owner can take a 100k loss easier than a 'little guy"

FIVE2_THREE

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange business that is funded by the taxpayer?

Ireland is a tax haven. do you really want to get into what the tax payers fund ? Have you ever heard of Google ? It's an AMERICAN company with offshoots in Ireland. It's based in Ireland because the Irish government gives it high tax breaks. Tax breaks that they smuggle in order to avoid American taxes. so there for every tax payer pays Google to base an office in Ireland. at least Ireland benefits from horse racing. I doubt Ireland benefits from having Google base an office in the country.

Gregk961

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Ireland is a tax haven. do you really want to get into what the tax payers fund ? Have you ever heard of Google ? It's an AMERICAN company with offshoots in Ireland. It's based in Ireland because the Irish government gives it high tax breaks. Tax breaks that they smuggle in order to avoid American taxes. so there for every tax payer pays Google to base an office in Ireland. at least Ireland benefits from horse racing. I doubt Ireland benefits from having Google base an office in the country.

What? The money horse racing is worth to the economy is probably not 1% of what big US companies provide. Tax breaks or not, its a ludicrous statement. Even if Google isnt exactly a massive employer whats good for the goose...

FIVE2_THREE

Gregk961 wrote: »

What? The money horse racing is worth to the economy is probably not 1% of what big US companies provide. Tax breaks or not, its a ludicrous statement. Even if Google isnt exactly a massive employer whats good for the goose...

If you as an Irish tax payer are happy with paying Google to base an office in Ireland than whom am I to take away your joy.

sirdes

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Not necessarily. Big Owners who buy from small owners are no different from pin hookers who buy at the sales with intention to resale at a profit. despite the gloom and doom being displayed in this thread there are some "little owners" who are in the business of selling. in NH racing your horse is one jump away from things going wrong so there for. If you have one of the bigger owners offering you good money you sale. lord knows a big owner can take a 100k loss easier than a 'little guy"

So what would you do too increase the pool of owners with better class horse's

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

No. I'm quite sure that Magnier and JP made more money through currency manipulation/trade. I'm from the world of flat racing so there for I bring up flat racing often.

You only mentioned Magnier and you are sure? Hilarious post mate.

So the few bob Magnier had from his dad when he joined VOB and Sangster hasnt been multiplied by thousands due to VOBs eye for a horse and Sangsters money to give Magnier shares in horses he never would have been involved in (The Minstrel, Nijinski et al), the money he earned in stud fees from them and the subequent conveyor belt of top stallions fees had no bearing on his wealth.

Without this chain of events he wouldnt have at least 99% of the money he has now.

Any names of those owners from the last 300 years that had the grade 1 success of the current crop of mega wealthy owners?

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

You only mentioned Magnier and you are sure? Hilarious post mate.

So the few bob Magnier had from his dad when he joined VOB and Sangster hasnt been multiplied by thousands due to VOBs eye for a horse and Sangsters money to give Magnier shares in horses he never would have been involved in (The Minstrel, Nijinski et al), the money he earned in stud fees from them and the subequent conveyor belt of top stallions fees had no bearing on his wealth.

Without this chain of events he wouldnt have at least 99% of the money he has now.

Any names of those owners from the last 300 years that had the grade 1 success of the current crop of mega wealthy owners?

Prior to Sangster coming along VOB didn't have any shares in any of the horses he trained. He collected his training fee and Placed bets in order to get by. It wasn't until the Minstral came along that VOB made any money. He and Sangster sold him back to EP Taylor for 9 million.

FIVE2_THREE

sirdes wrote: »

So what would you do too increase the pool of owners with better class horse's

There is very little than can be done. A lot of people say boost the prize money but an increase in prize money would only result in the bigger owners entering more horses.

Francie Barrett

Thud wrote: »

a snapshot of jumps racing nowadays:

http://www.irishracing.com/cards/Naas_Sun_22nd_Feb_2015_4_50.html

11 Entries: 5 from Gigginstown, 4 from Ricci and 2 from Wylie.
Propping up the industry or crowding out smaller owners??

Two horse race now! Mad, considering there's prize money for 3rd/4th.

mr.jingle

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Two horse race now! Mad, considering there's prize money for 3rd/4th.

If only one of the small owners bothered to enter a horse

coopdog85

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Those 3 horses you just mentioned, sold for between 100k - 300k, where did that money go then?

It's about 5 minutes away. The chap who bred Moon Racer lives down the road from me. Before it won it's Chelthenham bumper he was telling everyone it would win the Champion Bumper.

FIVE2_THREE

mr.jingle wrote: »

If only one of the small owners bothered to enter a horse

I agree Jingle. I said the same thing earlier this week when it was a 3 horse field
people can't complain about small owners not making money when the small owners don't bother to participate.

sirdes

mr.jingle wrote: »

If only one of the small owners bothered to enter a horse

Doubt there were a lot of small owners looking for a winners bumper too run their horse's in. It's easy to look back now but you don't know what horse's or who has entered them until the entries close

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Prior to Sangster coming along VOB didn't have any shares in any of the horses he trained. He collected his training fee and Placed bets in order to get by. It wasn't until the Minstral came along that VOB made any money. He and Sangster sold him back to EP Taylor for 9 million.

I never said he did, I called the three of them collectively the perfect storm. Sangster by virtue if who he was would still have been very wealthy without ever meeting the other two. The three together really multiplied their individual wealth.

bit of a bogey

Haven't been in touch with the thread of late but this is a really good topic for conversation. I have very mixed feelings on this but as a whole, I am glad that the best horses are being kept and trained in Ireland.

Aside from the little guy becoming less and less frequent, my biggest problem is the lack of top horses taking on one another. Mostly because they are from the same yard and owners. My question is, do we have too many grade 1's? Could downgrading some of these to grade 2's alleviate it marginally?

The problem i see with this is that Ricci and the boys could decide to make England first base but what if we increased the prize money of 2nd and 3rd places in Grade 1's?

I don't really agree with Willie Mullins arguing to increase the winning prize money. It makes good logic but not what the game needs at this moment in time. I'd rather see a higher prize money discrepancy between Grade 1's and lower class races. At least that way, they might be willing to take on the big guns as the compensation for being beaten is comparable to winning a Grade 2. e.g. Even though I do think the mares race has a place in cheltenham, no way in hell should it be a grade one. If it was a Grade 3 race with 1/10th of the prize money of Champion/World, would Mullins and Ricci be quite as keen?

bit of a bogey

One other point, I think the comparisons to Aidan OB and the flat are different.

Aidan O'Brien campaigns all his top horses to win the top races with the intention of increasing their value and stud fees. If two of his are suited for
a specific race, then both will take their chance. Willie Mullins purposely segregates his horse to increase his number of winners.

The flat for Coolmore is a business. Jumps racing is firstly a sport.

If the magnier mafia weren't in Ireland, there is no way we'd have the same quality of stallions operating out of Ireland. Their trainers should be treated the same as every other trainer but its a great achievement that we can say we are world leaders of the bloodstock industry and have horses capable of travelling the world.

Thud

article in Indo yesterday, maybe Richard is reading this topic

http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/making-the-rich-richer-is-not-the-answer-to-racings-ills-31012957.html

Thud

Thud wrote: »

article in Indo yesterday, maybe Richard is reading this topic

http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/making-the-rich-richer-is-not-the-answer-to-racings-ills-31012957.html

I wonder about the oft-quoted line about owners being selfless supporters of the game. Don't get me wrong - for the small guy obviously it's a long shot to pay your costs, but if it's such a loss-making business why are the prices paid for horses becoming so inflated? Is it pure ego or are JP, Ricci and O'Leary actually making a few bob out of it maybe?

Or to put it another way - if the bigshots who are behind this inflation walked away, would we suddenly find that owning a decent racehorse wasn't a crippling commitment after all?

Second point is hinted at in the article. I am getting a little bored of going out for the day and finding 2 or 3 races on the card no sort of betting proposition. It's tedious for the punters (although to be fair plenty seem willing to cheer home something they've put a tenner on at 2/5) and I doubt the bookies like it. There will come a time when the big guns look at Irish racing, or what Irish racing is becoming, and wonder if it's worth it.

Lastly on the prize money - I'd hate to think the punter, racegoer and taxpayer was funding Irish prize money being twice what it is in the UK just so that someone like Ricci races here and we can all get a little reflected glory at Cheltenham. That's nothing to be proud of.

BumperD

Thud wrote: »

article in Indo yesterday, maybe Richard is reading this topic

http://www.independent.ie/sport/horse-racing/making-the-rich-richer-is-not-the-answer-to-racings-ills-31012957.html

I don't doubt it.

BumperD

Re the prize money, I just had a quick look, giggy for example has approx 150 in training, give or take, euro 2mln in prize money so far this season, make it ave 15k training per horse per annum, that's a total training fee outlay of 22,500,000 per annum. That's before the capital cost to purchase stock. I doubt he's making money from the game or any of them you mentioned to be honest unless there is an angle I'm missing. I'd say it's just a hobby for them and they enjoy the sport.

Francie Barrett

BumperD wrote: »

Re the prize money, I just had a quick look, giggy for example has approx 150 in training, give or take, euro 2mln in prize money so far this season, make it ave 15k training per horse per annum, that's a total training fee outlay of 22,500,000 per annum. That's before the capital cost to purchase stock. I doubt he's making money from the game or any of them you mentioned to be honest unless there is an angle I'm missing. I'd say it's just a hobby for them and they enjoy the sport.

Its not so bad for rich owners who are already resident in the country and who are likely paying high tax. Costs can be written of against other income that would ordinarily be taxed. also prize money is tax free. No way antone makes money, but I'd say the big shots aren't losing much.