Jumps racing for the small owners??

Thud

a snapshot of jumps racing nowadays:

http://www.irishracing.com/cards/Naas_Sun_22nd_Feb_2015_4_50.html

11 Entries: 5 from Gigginstown, 4 from Ricci and 2 from Wylie.
Propping up the industry or crowding out smaller owners??

Volvic12

Agree - serious problem in National Hunt racing.
Irish Racing is dominated by JP, Gigginstown and Ricci. Between them, they are taking every bit of prizemoney on offer. Also means that punter is affected as these owners tend not to run their horses against eachother.

sting60

Thud wrote: »

a snapshot of jumps racing nowadays:

http://www.irishracing.com/cards/Naas_Sun_22nd_Feb_2015_4_50.html

11 Entries: 5 from Gigginstown, 4 from Ricci and 2 from Wylie.
Propping up the industry or crowding out smaller owners??

Gigginstown/ricci/JP/wylie have taken over 80% of all prize money in Ireland this season.

Panrich

This surely will drive any sensible small owners out of the game eventually. You will always have the likes of the independently wealthy owner breeder who'll have a few in training but the pickings are going to be slim. Even the next level of owners like Dr Lambe and Barry Connell must be beginning to look twice. There is a huge risk when these mega-owners get fed up or die off, that the tradition of racehorse owning and the small trainers will be long gone. Look at Charlie Swan and Joanna Morgan recent announcements. There will be many more to come I fear.

Volvic12

Anyone have any suggestions what could be done to help fix this problem??

Panrich

Panrich wrote: »

This surely will drive any sensible small owners out of the game eventually. You will always have the likes of the independently wealthy owner breeder who'll have a few in training but the pickings are going to be slim. Even the next level of owners like Dr Lambe and Barry Connell must be beginning to look twice. There is a huge risk when these mega-owners get fed up or die off, that the tradition of racehorse owning and the small trainers will be long gone. Look at Charlie Swan and Joanna Morgan recent announcements. There will be many more to come I fear.

Also factor in the politics.

How can horse racing argue for support when it is putting money into the pocket of JP and Ricci etc?

We all know you can debate the finer points around whether they put more in than they take out. But the man in the street doesn't see it like that.

Volvic12

Volvic12 wrote: »

Anyone have any suggestions what could be done to help fix this problem??

The French 'coupling' rule would be a start.

Thud

Volvic12 wrote: »

Anyone have any suggestions what could be done to help fix this problem??

The majority of money to be made in the jumps industry is from prize money rather than breeding, you'd have to think funding it will be under question if 80% is going to the large owners....probably only a matter of time until they dominate the jumps breeding scene also so the trickle down of money to smaller breeders becomes less also

radharc

Deleted User wrote: »

The French 'coupling' rule would be a start.

Don't see how that would make any difference to be honest.

Another huge drawback is that we are missing out on great rivalries and matches. Racing is the poorer when Faugheen, Vautour, Annie Power etc are extremely unlikely to ever meet on a racecourse.

Peintre Celebre

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The French 'coupling' rule would be a start.

?

This wouldn't help in the slightest.


Something like races with restricted eligibility, say for horses purchased below 50k at auction etc. Aren't there similar ones on the flat, like the Tattersall or Goffs races

Panrich

It's also harder for the man on the street to feel an empathy with the owners/trainers of these blue bloods. Gone are the days of real characters like Charmain Hill and Anthony Robinson etc. I don't get a sense of national pride seeing one of Ricci's or Wylies coming up the Cheltenham hill in front like I remember with the likes of Brave Inca, Imperial Call Hardyeustace or Our Conor.

AndersLimpar

Panrich wrote: »

It's also harder for the man on the street to feel an empathy with the owners/trainers of these blue bloods. Gone are the days of real characters like Charmain Hill and Anthony Robinson etc. I don't get a sense of national pride seeing one of Ricci's or Wylies coming up the Cheltenham hill in front like I remember with the likes of Brave Inca, Imperial Call Hardyeustace or Our Conor.

This is very true.

Its one of the reasons also that I dont have a great love for flat racing, there is no real connection with the common man

sting60

IMO the way forward is to reduce prize money for all graded races(80% won by billionaires). Money cannot be a factor for the big owners and prestige the major factor.10yrs ago a decent horse at the ptp could be got for 30k that horse is now 300k and is a very closed shop.that massive increase in prices is not seen anywhere in the industry only at the very top.we have seen high profile trainers pack it in recently and that is only the very tip of the iceberg.one trainer who won big races at cheltenham is now but a cattle farmer another current trainer does a milk round to keep his yard open.HRI were asked by me how much money is spent in France each year purchasing nh horses,omerta.this is a very serious issue but nothing will be done about it for very obvious reasons.

Peintre Celebre

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

?

This wouldn't help in the slightest.


Something like races with restricted eligibility, say for horses purchased below 50k at auction etc. Aren't there similar ones on the flat, like the Tattersall or Goffs races

Maybe it wouldn't. I suppose I was thinking more of JP with that comment but even then maybe not.

Agreed it wouldn't affect Ricci much. Surely though it's a good way of exposing the oddity that so many horses are owned by so few people and creating pressure for change?

Does it not make life harder for broader connections in terms of punting as well?

Panrich

Panrich wrote: »

It's also harder for the man on the street to feel an empathy with the owners/trainers of these blue bloods. Gone are the days of real characters like Charmain Hill and Anthony Robinson etc. I don't get a sense of national pride seeing one of Ricci's or Wylies coming up the Cheltenham hill in front like I remember with the likes of Brave Inca, Imperial Call Hardyeustace or Our Conor.

I agree 100% with this. Particularly Ricci.

Thud

sting60 wrote: »

IMO the way forward is to reduce prize money for all graded races(80% won by billionaires). Money cannot be a factor for the big owners and prestige the major factor.

I would be surprised if two very shrewd businessmen (Ricci and O'Leary) even if it is a hobby are in it for prestige alone, I would think there is a point at when if you hoover up enough of the G1 and G2 races it starts to make profit, especially if you can push out the smaller owners who might have a decent horse every once in a while

zpehtsfd

Thud wrote: »

I would be surprised if two very shrewd businessmen (Ricci and O'Leary) even if it is a hobby are in it for prestige alone, I would think there is a point at when if you hoover up enough of the G1 and G2 races it starts to make profit, especially if you can push out the smaller owners who might have a decent horse every once in a while

If they were looking at this from a business perspective they would have been gone long ago. There is no money to be made in NH racing when your initial outlay is so massive. The numbers just don't add up.

convert

Point-to-points are also going the same way. From what was traditionally an amateur sport, you've got Gordon Elliot and Colin Bowe with numerous horses entered in each race, and Brian Connell with horses there, too. This is really pushing out the 'family' and smaller owners' horses.

nobody told me

convert wrote: »

Point-to-points are also going the same way. From what was traditionally an amateur sport, you've got Gordon Elliot and Colin Bowe with numerous horses entered in each race, and Brian Connell with horses there, too. This is really pushing out the 'family' and smaller owners' horses.

Don't get this what's wrong with Colin bowe running horses in points? He's a point trainer that runs a small few on the track as far I know

Huntley

I'm not sure what the issue is here. If you pump in the most money, attempt to buy the best horses, automatically you will look to compete in the best races. The small owners can compete on this level if they want to shovel in a similar amount of finance, it isn't a closed house. Without significant financial outlay it is unrealistic for them to expect to compete consistently at the top table.

There are plenty of opportunities for small owners/lesser horses but in different circumstances. It's not often you'd see a 80-95 handicap in Kilbeggan dominated by Ricci, Gigginstown and McManus horses.

NaiveMelodies

The really annoying thing about this whole situation for me is the man on the street who proclaims 'Fix' in every bookies under the sun when a Gigginstown/Ricci/JP outsider beats the Gigginstown/Ricci/JP fancy. I would be in the same position to buy any animal I wanted if I had a penny for every time I heard this gripe.
Until horses literally become machines, I'll wince every time I hear it.

If the small owner wants to buy a horse or join a syndicate and accept that he won't be making a profit from the venture(as with the big owners) then they can, and there are plenty of opportunities to do so. Why should anyone have a divine right to own the best horses in the sport?

Fair enough the more romantic racing fan might get their 'Small owner win's the Gold Cup' story less and less.. but romance is quickly becoming a word rarely associated with sport, never mind racing.

pugw

I for one amnt really a fan of irish racing! I don't think it's very competitive! Betting against an odds on shot owned by the aforementioned in every secocond race (exaggeration) it's dar more open in he UK on a Saturday

Francie Barrett

Huntley wrote: »

I'm not sure what the issue is here. If you pump in the most money, attempt to buy the best horses, automatically you will look to compete in the best races. The small owners can compete on this level if they want to shovel in a similar amount of finance, it isn't a closed house. Without significant financial outlay it is unrealistic for them to expect to compete consistently at the top table.

There are plenty of opportunities for small owners/lesser horses but in different circumstances. It's not often you'd see a 80-95 handicap in Kilbeggan dominated by Ricci, Gigginstown and McManus horses.

+1

If a small cadre of owners are hoovering up 80% of the prize money it's only because they account for 80% of the entire total of money spent on horses in a year.

Shemale

It is disappointing seeing decent national hunt horses going for stupid money, it does affect the guys like us why might throw a syndicate together. At the same time 4 people like us bought Our Conor, won the Triumph and he got moved on for a reputed €1,000,000. As far as I know Finians Rainbow was bought for €6k or €8k and the owners won a Champion Chase with him so luck plays a fair part of it too.

Sure it seems shocking to say 80% of prize money has gone to four owners, if you think about it the Irish Champion Hurdle is about €70,000 prize money, the prize money for an 80 - 100 race is somewhere in the region of €7k. These guys are playing at the highest level so of course they will end up with a large percentage of the prize money, between them they must have at least 400 horses with a guesstimated average rating of 135+ and at this level the prize money is far better than for 80 - 100 races.

Francie Barrett

I think a big problem here is the trainers themselves. They're obviously not all bad, but there is a not insignificant minority out there who do their trade no justice at all. About 20 years ago I got involved with a syndicate and a trainer (who incidentally is still going today). We bought the horse as a 4 year old after doing plenty of research and getting advice off a reputable bloodstock agent. The horse was sent in to training, all early signs were positive, so the horse was entered for a bumper, we all turned out for the day with the expectation of a good run. Horse came stone last. Horse subsequently got entered for 7 more bumpers/hurdle races while being gelded in the meantime. Our best run still had us 15 lengths off winning. All throughout those two years, we were told the horse was looking well at home, was improving, just needed gelding, needed decent weather, etc. - the excuses were endless. One day, one of the lads who was down as the registered owner gets a phone called out of the blue. Trainer had someone who was looking to buy the horse, he advised us to sell (at a big loss) as he felt it was unlikely we would get a winner. Trainer even said he had the forms filled out for and said he just needed a signature. We sold. Next thing, horse was entered into a race just a few weeks later with the owner listed as the trainers brother in law. While it only came third that day, we knew then that we had been had. The next time the horse went out, it won and then got sold over to England.

We were naive and not all trainers are like this. But there's plenty out there who will be more than happy to take small owners to the cleaners because we are replaceable.

sdoc13

Shemale wrote: »

It is disappointing seeing decent national hunt horses going for stupid money, it does affect the guys like us why might throw a syndicate together. At the same time 4 people like us bought Our Conor, won the Triumph and he got moved on for a reputed €1,000,000. As far as I know Finians Rainbow was bought for €6k or €8k and the owners won a Champion Chase with him so luck plays a fair part of it too.

Sure it seems shocking to say 80% of prize money has gone to four owners, if you think about it the Irish Champion Hurdle is about €70,000 prize money, the prize money for an 80 - 100 race is somewhere in the region of €7k. These guys are playing at the highest level so of course they will end up with a large percentage of the prize money, between them they must have at least 400 horses with a guesstimated average rating of 135+ and at this level the prize money is far better than for 80 - 100 races.

When you think about it Hurricane fly has won the 3 biggest grade 1 hurdle races and they didnt win the biggest handicap in the PP at christmas. Take out that prize money and the percentage that they have won would be pushing 90%

FIVE2_THREE

OK....Horse racing is a capitalist sport. It is not a communist based industry. The "little guy" has no chance of competing because he is CHEAP. you can't get lemonade from stones. just examine how much money the elite of the sport puts into their operation and how much the little guy puts into his and the difference is clear. obviously money doesn't secure success (see Godolphin) but it sure does help when it comes to making certain decisions. Horse racing is like war. He who has the biggest guns and the biggest GDP can invade countries and lay waste to everything without anybody saying anything because he who has the biggest guns makes the rules.

FIVE2_THREE

Huntley wrote: »

I'm not sure what the issue is here. If you pump in the most money, attempt to buy the best horses, automatically you will look to compete in the best races. The small owners can compete on this level if they want to shovel in a similar amount of finance, it isn't a closed house. Without significant financial outlay it is unrealistic for them to expect to compete consistently at the top table.

There are plenty of opportunities for small owners/lesser horses but in different circumstances. It's not often you'd see a 80-95 handicap in Kilbeggan dominated by Ricci, Gigginstown and McManus horses.

I agree. I hear the same stuff year after year when Coolmore succeeds. people forget the massive amounts of money it takes to run their operations. Feeding 100-150 horses year round is not cheap. An operation like Coolmore pays American taxes, Irish taxes and Australian taxes on top of employing people in those three countries year round. add in the vet bills and the horses who don't turn a profit and it's clear to see how most big owners can easily operate at a loss. while the little guy has a handful of horses that he paid little money for and if he has a good horse most of the time he sales it for a profit.

Thud

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

OK....Horse racing is a capitalist sport. It is not a communist based industry. The "little guy" has no chance of competing because he is CHEAP. you can't get lemonade from stones. just examine how much money the elite of the sport puts into their operation and how much the little guy puts into his and the difference is clear. obviously money doesn't secure success (see Godolphin) but it sure does help when it comes to making certain decisions. Horse racing is like war. He who has the biggest guns and the biggest GDP can invade countries and lay waste to everything without anybody saying anything because he who has the biggest guns makes the rules.

Yes but flat racing is international and has huge breeding money behind it so it can survive even if pushes out the small owners in Ireland (and all it's classics start to lose prestige), jumps racing doesn't have the same international appeal or bloodstock money so if it ends up where most cards are made up of runners from the same 4 owners the incentive for government funding is gone, man on the street will lose interest and the sport will start to die off...

sting60

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I think a big problem here is the trainers themselves. They're obviously not all bad, but there is a not insignificant minority out there who do their trade no justice at all. About 20 years ago I got involved with a syndicate and a trainer (who incidentally is still going today). We bought the horse as a 4 year old after doing plenty of research and getting advice off a reputable bloodstock agent. The horse was sent in to training, all early signs were positive, so the horse was entered for a bumper, we all turned out for the day with the expectation of a good run. Horse came stone last. Horse subsequently got entered for 7 more bumpers/hurdle races while being gelded in the meantime. Our best run still had us 15 lengths off winning. All throughout those two years, we were told the horse was looking well at home, was improving, just needed gelding, needed decent weather, etc. - the excuses were endless. One day, one of the lads who was down as the registered owner gets a phone called out of the blue. Trainer had someone who was looking to buy the horse, he advised us to sell (at a big loss) as he felt it was unlikely we would get a winner. Trainer even said he had the forms filled out for and said he just needed a signature. We sold. Next thing, horse was entered into a race just a few weeks later with the owner listed as the trainers brother in law. While it only came third that day, we knew then that we had been had. The next time the horse went out, it won and then got sold over to England.

We were naive and not all trainers are like this. But there's plenty out there who will be more than happy to take small owners to the cleaners because we are replaceable.

Test case carraig Willy comes to mind.

FIVE2_THREE

Thud wrote: »

Yes but flat racing is international and has huge breeding money behind it so it can survive even if pushes out the small owners in Ireland (and all it's classics start to lose prestige), jumps racing doesn't have the same international appeal or bloodstock money so if it ends up where most cards are made up of runners from the same 4 owners the incentive for government funding is gone, man on the street will lose interest and the sport will start to die off...

I doubt it. they have been jumping horses just as long as they have been running them on the flat for 300 years. this isn't the first time the little guy has found himself under threat. and it isn't the last. there is no shortage of sponsors willing to attach their name to a race for advertisement.

Thud

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

I doubt it. they have been jumping horses just as long as they have been running them on the flat for 300 years. this isn't the first time the little guy has found himself under threat. and it isn't the last. there is no shortage of sponsors willing to attach their name to a race for advertisement.

Have a look at page 20 of this:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/agriculturefoodandthemarine/Final-Report-PLS-(HRI)-PDF.pdf

Commercial sponsors make up around 11% of prize money the rest comes from HRI and entry fees (owners). HRI funding comes from betting tax and Government funding. The jobs in the industry is the main reason they fund the industry but would imagine as those jobs numbers fall someone will start to look at it and NH prize money funding going to 4 wealthy owners would be an easy cut to make.

FIVE2_THREE

Thud wrote: »

Have a look at page 20 of this:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/agriculturefoodandthemarine/Final-Report-PLS-(HRI)-PDF.pdf

Commercial sponsors make up around 11% of prize money the rest comes from HRI and entry fees (owners). HRI funding comes from betting tax and Government funding. The jobs in the industry is the main reason they fund the industry but would imagine as those jobs numbers fall someone will start to look at it and NH prize money funding going to 4 wealthy owners would be an easy cut to make.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. there is a reason why those top 4 owners dominate. and thats because they have dedicated their pocket to doing so. you can't blame the New York yankees or Manchester United if they win championships becuse they invest into their teams. Giggenstown and JP attract so much to the jumps industry. take away their horses and you have unheralted animals winning the top races. the owners are not the starts of the sport the horses are. take a way those top 4 owners and you will have less betting and lower track attendence because they have the horses all the people want to see and bet on. take away those top 4 owners and Ireland will have hundreds of people unemployed. Coolmore,Giggenstown and JP helps Ireland in ways that a little guy can only dream about. would you rather Irelands unemplyement be 10 points higher so that an onwer with a 5 horse stable can win the gold cup ?

BumperD

Here's his solution..........

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=6494124&category=0

"WILLIE MULLINS has demanded more is done to reward jumps owners at the Cheltenham Festival and called for prize-money to be doubled in the major contests at the fixture.

Leading trainer at the Cheltenham Festival for three of the past four years, Mullins said on Wednesday the costs of finding and training a horse to get to Cheltenham with a chance was expensive and the prize-money return insufficient for owners.

He said: "The prize-money [in jumps racing], given the costs, does not make sense and it cannot last. That, to me, is not fair and it's not on for what owners do for the sport of racing.

"The meetings are there but the prize-money should rise. All we see is the prize-money edging up a bit every year. I think maybe prize-money for the graded races at Cheltenham could be at least doubled, if not more. It would give meaningful prizes for racing horses.

"Someone should really break out and say 'we need to reinvigorate the sport' before it goes down. The bottom end of racing is disappearing."

Champion trainer in Ireland for the past seven seasons, Mullins is preparing a squad of up to 50 for the Cheltenham Festival next month and is also likely to be well represented at the Crabbie's Grand National meeting in April as well.

However, Mullins believes there is potential for the creation of a festival towards the end of the British jumps season in the same style as Qipco British Champions Day and Irish Champions Weekend if the decision is not taken to improve prize-money at Cheltenham.

"I'd like to see a champions' weekend," he said. "When I see what we have at Punchestown over five days, it's the natural end to both seasons [in Britain and Ireland]. It fits in beautifully after Cheltenham or Aintree and possibly England could do the same."

theaceofspies

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You're not understanding what I'm saying. there is a reason why those top 4 owners dominate. and thats because they have dedicated their pocket to doing so. you can't blame the New York yankees or Manchester United if they win championships becuse they invest into their teams. Giggenstown and JP attract so much to the jumps industry. take away their horses and you have unheralted animals winning the top races. the owners are not the starts of the sport the horses are. take a way those top 4 owners and you will have less betting and lower track attendence because they have the horses all the people want to see and bet on. take away those top 4 owners and Ireland will have hundreds of people unemployed. Coolmore,Giggenstown and JP helps Ireland in ways that a little guy can only dream about. would you rather Irelands unemplyement be 10 points higher so that an onwer with a 5 horse stable can win the gold cup ?

Cannot agree with you there. NH racing thrived in Ireland long before Giiginstown, JP et al started hoovering up prizemoney.
The skew in prizemoney towards Graded racing is a policy decision by HRI at the exprense of infrastructure, racecourse facilities etc.
'unheralted animals winning the top races' is where the magic of jump racing lay e.g. Danoli, Brave Inca, Dawn Run etc. etc. It gave the man on street a chance to dream and even if they had no direct connection with those horses at least they saw somebody at a similar level achieving the 'dream' i.e. a Cheltanham winner and it gave them heart to plug on and keep their horse in training or at least to try again with another animal.
Personnally I believe that there were more people directly employed in racing 10 years ago before all this happened?

Gregk961

Wouldn't that just dilute Aintree and Punchestown? I really dont think another weekend of Grade 1s late season is the answer to anything. If anything it would widen the gap, more races for him to send his ridiculously talented army of horses too is in Mullins best interests.

Meath Centre Forward

I have thought about this recently and would see it as a problem too. However as someone pointed out the positive aspect of this is there are now far better NH horses in Ireland. Look at the number of winners at Cheltenham Irish trained compared to ten years ago. This all equates to jobs, etc. People going on about Swan and Morgan retiring....it's not a negative really. Trainers have always been retiring and the reality is competition is far stronger now than ever it was. The real negative for me is the stranglehold Mullins has.

I know Ricci / JP / Giggy are probably the top 3 but other owners like Barry Connell, Alan Potts & Graham Wylie have a fair chunk of good horses too.

I would agree though the current situation is probably not as syndicate friendly as it used to be.That's another negative in my opinion.

FIVE2_THREE

theaceofspies wrote: »

Cannot agree with you there. NH racing thrived in Ireland long before Giiginstown, JP et al started hoovering up prizemoney.
The skew in prizemoney towards Graded racing is a policy decision by HRI at the exprense of infrastructure, racecourse facilities etc.
'unheralted animals winning the top races' is where the magic of jump racing lay e.g. Danoli, Brave Inca, Dawn Run etc. etc. It gave the man on street a chance to dream and even if they had no direct connection with those horses at least they saw somebody at a similar level achieving the 'dream' i.e. a Cheltanham winner and it gave them heart to plug on and keep their horse in training or at least to try again with another animal.
Personnally I believe that there were more people directly employed in racing 10 years ago before all this happened?

The man on the street with the 5 horse stable does nothing for racing. Go ask Henessy would they rather sponsor a race that has horses from Gigginstown and JP or 6 horses from no name stables and I assure you they would take JP and GT. Sponsors want the big guns in their races.

Shemale

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The man on the street with the 5 horse stable does nothing for racing. Go ask Henessy would they rather sponsor a race that has horses from Gigginstown and JP or 6 horses from no name stables and I assure you they would take JP and GT. Sponsors want the big guns in their races.

Rubbish, racing fans want to see horses they have an affinity with owned by people like the common man. Do really think if the smaller trainers were gone and only the richest owners were left,national hunt racing would be worth sponsoring at the level it currently is. Shudder to think of nh racing with characters like Curley, Brady (RIP) and Casey not involved.

padohaodha

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The man on the street with the 5 horse stable does nothing for racing. Go ask Henessy would they rather sponsor a race that has horses from Gigginstown and JP or 6 horses from no name stables and I assure you they would take JP and GT. Sponsors want the big guns in their races.

pure unadulterated nonsense.

Thud

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You're not understanding what I'm saying. there is a reason why those top 4 owners dominate. and thats because they have dedicated their pocket to doing so. you can't blame the New York yankees or Manchester United if they win championships becuse they invest into their teams. Giggenstown and JP attract so much to the jumps industry. take away their horses and you have unheralted animals winning the top races. the owners are not the starts of the sport the horses are. take a way those top 4 owners and you will have less betting and lower track attendence because they have the horses all the people want to see and bet on. take away those top 4 owners and Ireland will have hundreds of people unemployed. Coolmore,Giggenstown and JP helps Ireland in ways that a little guy can only dream about. would you rather Irelands unemplyement be 10 points higher so that an onwer with a 5 horse stable can win the gold cup ?

Thanks, I understand but disagree. Baseball and football are self sufficient sports which generate billions in advertising and tv money and have huge fanbases. NH racing is propped up by the government and has a dwindling fanbase and tv coverage. If the little guy is crowded out you'll have far less opportunity for new trainers and smaller owners and you'd be left with a few large owners and trainers (and fewer jobs also think supermarkets vs local shops) and no matter how classy the horses (whether they are actually better than previous generations is open to debate) that's not something that can survive

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

The man on the street with the 5 horse stable does nothing for racing. Go ask Henessy would they rather sponsor a race that has horses from Gigginstown and JP or 6 horses from no name stables and I assure you they would take JP and GT. Sponsors want the big guns in their races.

that report shows what Hennessy or any other sponsor prefer is marginal compared to what the main sponsor, the government, decides.
Horse numbers and employee numbers are down in the majority of small yards...prizemoney for wealthy NH owners or more hospital beds?

sting60

A full and concise reply to this topic would require a document aka a tribunal.figures I obtained few years back showed sponsorship in huge decline eg navan returned 1% of prize money was through sponsorship.tote returns for major meetings where there are graded races are seriously depleted and attendance figures are massaged to look attractive but are not comparable to ten years ago.at the moment sky are keeping small rural meetings afloat due to their 8k per meeting to the track support.the UK with its vast nh network of meetings host 135 graded races where Ireland with its vastly inferior numbers his host 103 graded races(not up to date figures).there is beyond any doubt top owners/trainers are controlling HRI/turf club.example,the rules of racing declare "a horse must run on his merit to try and gain the best possible finishing position it can". Aiden o Brien runs a horse to help another horse from another yard ,Jessie harrington plinth/jezki everything is OK.Gillian o callaghan trainer of mount corkish girl recently got a fine Andy lynch/horse suspended for sixty days not trying to obtain best possible placing".the vet reported the horse after the race to have a temp and was coughing but they were still charged.the people who own mount corkish girl are very small time owners but the turf club have to seen to be doing something.if you don't dine at the top table the scraps will become less and less and my last point is crucial in understanding the current climate.The Irish tax payer is totally oblivious to is taking 80%of their hard wages in relation to government support.

lorenzo87

Do you honestly think JP McManus or Rich Ricci give a hoot about prize-money? They wipe their back sides with $100 bills. Peanuts to them, not even worth talking about. Without Ricci or McManus, Irish racing would be dead, that's a fact. Vautour, Faugheen and all these other French imports would not be here only for Ricci.. And JP McManus has horses with many of the smaller trainers, without him the industry would be in a much worse off state. Gordon Elliott started off as a small trainer, but with hard work and sheer willpower he got support and now he is one of the best in the country.. If you are a quality trainer, you will attract owners with money. You have to take risks as a trainer, if you sit back and keep training donkeys hoping one of them is going to turn into a superstar, you'll be waiting.

sirdes

I think the main problem that needs to be rectified is prize money. The lowest win prize for any race should be at least 10k so that the owner has some chance of covering his costs for the season. Prize money at the top level should also be increased and this might keep smaller owners in the game as whenever a small owner gets offered good money for a young horse the first thing they realise is that the chances of that horse winning a similar amount of money on the track are slim

Gregk961

lorenzo87 wrote: »

Do you honestly think JP McManus or Rich Ricci give a hoot about prize-money? They wipe their back sides with $100 bills. Peanuts to them, not even worth talking about. Without Ricci or McManus, Irish racing would be dead, that's a fact. Vautour, Faugheen and all these other French imports would not be here only for Ricci.. And JP McManus has horses with many of the smaller trainers, without him the industry would be in a much worse off state. Gordon Elliott started off as a small trainer, but with hard work and sheer willpower he got support and now he is one of the best in the country.. If you are a quality trainer, you will attract owners with money. You have to take risks as a trainer, if you sit back and keep training donkeys hoping one of them is going to turn into a superstar, you'll be waiting.

Agreed about Elliot, hope he has a good Cheltenham has clawed his way to the top of the NH ranks through hard work. Hope he continues his great work is a positive influence on the sport.

mr.jingle

sirdes wrote: »

I think the main problem that needs to be rectified is prize money. The lowest win prize for any race should be at least 10k so that the owner has some chance of covering his costs for the season. Prize money at the top level should also be increased and this might keep smaller owners in the game as whenever a small owner gets offered good money for a young horse the first thing they realise is that the chances of that horse winning a similar amount of money on the track are slim

Where will this extra prizemoney come from? Sponsors aren't going to part 10k to sponsor a small handicap on a tuesday afternoon in tramore!

sirdes

mr.jingle wrote: »

Where will this extra prizemoney come from? Sponsors aren't going to part 10k to sponsor a small handicap on a tuesday afternoon in tramore!

As far as I know sponsors pay less than 10% of the prizefund anyway. Irish racing is badly funded and seems to be run to suit certain groups. A 2yo maiden will have a prize of 16k plus. Only today they announced an increase for the champions weekend prize money to 4.3 million while a bumper or maiden hurdle is worth around 10k. The most valuable jumps races are now handicaps, run basically to benefit the bookies

FIVE2_THREE

Shemale wrote: »

Rubbish, racing fans want to see horses they have an affinity with owned by people like the common man. Do really think if the smaller trainers were gone and only the richest owners were left,national hunt racing would be worth sponsoring at the level it currently is. Shudder to think of nh racing with characters like Curley, Brady (RIP) and Casey not involved.

You are free to disagree but in the mean time. you can keep pulling for the little guy and JP,GT will keep smashing them. Horse racing isn't going anywhere. the gloom and doom you all forecast will never happen. they have been running and jumping horses for the better part of 320 years. it was here before us and it will be here after we are all dust in the ground.

FIVE2_THREE

mr.jingle wrote: »

Where will this extra prizemoney come from? Sponsors aren't going to part 10k to sponsor a small handicap on a tuesday afternoon in tramore!

Exactly it's hard to believe that the answer is to boost the prize money. MORE PRIZE MONEY BRINGS OUT THE BETTER HORSES. JP AND GT have the better horses. so there for the little guy will be even further behind the top 4 owners in the country.

Thud

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You are free to disagree but in the mean time. you can keep pulling for the little guy and JP,GT will keep smashing them. Horse racing isn't going anywhere. the gloom and doom you all forecast will never happen. they have been running and jumping horses for the better part of 320 years. it was here before us and it will be here after we are all dust in the ground.

Different country but shows how NH racing can go out of favour:
http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/02/19/south-australian-jockey-club-blames-jumps-racing-for-its-own-demise/

sirdes

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Exactly it's hard to believe that the answer is to boost the prize money. MORE PRIZE MONEY BRINGS OUT THE BETTER HORSES. JP AND GT have the better horses. so there for the little guy will be even further behind the top 4 owners in the country.

And where are they getting these top horses. They are buying them off small owners who are cashing out because the prize money is not good enough for them to take a chance and hold on to the horse.