Tony Ward; Drop the Flankers!

davegrohl48

sydthebeat wrote: »

This thread isnt about player welfare... theres another thread already on-going about that. This thread is about Tony Wards assertion that "Rugby is being slowly strangled to death"

I call complete BS on that.

you look at the Super XV games that went on last weekend.
298 points scored over 7 games... thats an average of 42 points per game!!!
The spectacle was expansive, attacking flair is rewarded, scrum resets are at an absolute minimum (even for the opening weekend)

and guess what...

ITS THE EXACT SAME GAME !

I made the point above that it will take a mindset in coaches to change the spectacle rather than a raft of law changes. At the highest test level the players are bred of physicality, because at the core of the game its about strength, power, skill and speed. Skill and Speed are very much 'born with' talents that can be honed... but strength and power is a lot more malleable and achievable by management.

Small fast players still exist in the game, look at this data sheet comparing the players between the lions and the wallabys in the first test in 2013

http://www.rugby-sidestep-central.com/2013-lions-player-sizes.html#EEBF order

18 of the 46 were 6' or under

so ill reassert, the game is not broken

Counting there I see a 44 Man Lions squad.
13 players are 6' are under. 7 of those 13 are backs, one of them the 17 stone Tuilagi.
Of the remaining 6 backs, you are unlikely to see a Shane Williams (5'7") establish themselves as a winger or a Brian ODriscoll (5'9") establish themselves as a centre nowadays. They were established players near the end of their careers.

the immortals

The defensive offside line could do with some attention, they look offside a lot of the time to me

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Counting there I see a 44 Man Lions squad.
13 players are 6' are under. 7 of those 13 are backs, one of them the 17 stone Tuilagi.
Of the remaining 6 backs, you are unlikely to see a Shane Williams (5'7") establish themselves as a winger or a Brian ODriscoll (5'9") establish themselves as a centre nowadays. They were established players near the end of their careers.

christian wade is 5' 8"

christian leluiafano is 5' 10"


.......

Theres no point in giving players like shane williams and BOD as examples, as they are 'top 1%' kind of players, and for every fast midget like shane wiliams, you had giants freaks like Jonah Lomu playing at the same time... for every BOD you had a Jeremy Guscott.

Ask any player that faced off against BOD who packed the biggest hit... and they will more often than not tell you that BOD was the most powerful.
you could start with Scott Williams, Clement Poitrenaud, and lock Danie Rossouw.....

davegrohl48

the immortals wrote: »

The defensive offside line could do with some attention, they look offside a lot of the time to me

That's because they are offside a lot of the time. Yellow card for second offside offence would soon cut way down the number of offside infringements.
Some of the really big hits on players have been where the defender has stolen a few yards on the defensive line and arrived unexpectedly on a player about to receive the ball. I'm not sure Chabal was onside when he poleaxed Jerry Collins. I might be wrong there, but we've all seen other examples where it wasn't the speed of the tackler that got them there so quickly but stealing a few yards on the offside line. When Brian ODriscoll was hit by Davies, I'm not sure he was onside either. I'm not getting into freeze framing videos, but we've seen this quite commonly in games.

davegrohl48

sydthebeat wrote: »

christian wade is 5' 8"

christian leluiafano is 5' 10"


.......

Theres no point in giving players like shane williams and BOD as examples, as they are 'top 1%' kind of players, and for every fast midget like shane wiliams, you had giants freaks like Jonah Lomu playing at the same time... for every BOD you had a Jeremy Guscott.

Ask any player that faced off against BOD who packed the biggest hit... and they will more often than not tell you that BOD was the most powerful.
you could start with Scott Williams, Clement Poitrenaud, and lock Danie Rossouw.....

I agree with you on all your points there. I'm just making the point that such players like those two would now not be able to establish themselves at all. I just couldn't see them coming through from underage ranks, junior squads etc. If the game is all about giant backs (George North) or at least big backs (Simon Zebo type size) who will look at lads 5'7" and 5'9".
You are correct, ODriscoll was powerful and could tackle hard. He was relatively lightweight in tackling/bodyweight when he started out in his first two seasons.

RobbieRuns

I think that the defensive lines in rugby take from the spectacle as a whole. Sometimes wish that they could be offside a bit more !

The big change that I see is the military lines of defence and the phases that can only be described as "head on car crashes" or "battering rams". This has come from rugby league defence coaches. If the lines were not always so straight and close together it would be easier to break down and run through.

Players nowadays talk more about "our defence" or "discipline at the breakdown". I prefer people running in open spaces and not into crowds of large men trying to take your head off.

Rugby league style defensive systems have taken from the game IMHO.

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

If the game is all about giant backs (George North) or at least big backs (Simon Zebo type size) who will look at lads 5'7" and 5'9".
.

i complete see your point, i just dont agree thats its so serious we need to change the laws of the game over it.

Reps4jesus

I agree with the people of the opinion that there is no need to change the game. Yes the scrum and offside line need looking at but removing players is ridiculous. Also players heights have nothing to do with it. Also players heights have nothing to do with it, I would much rather be hit by some 6'3 15 stone player than a 5'10 15 stone player. The telegraph just picked their top 100 players, of the top 10, probably only Savea, Retallick and Vermuelan would stand out as players with pure brute force. The likes of Conrad Smith, Willie Le Roux, Dan Carter, Sexton, McCaw are not exactly rugby behemoths. Rugby is a physical game so size obviously helps, but it is far from the be all and end all. I also think a lot of the reported height and weight of players are embellished a little. I have met many players listed as 6'1/6'2 who I have been taller than while standing at 6 foot.

LorMal

.ak wrote: »

It is perfect. It's the most perfectest game ever. And I will fight anyone who thinks otherwise.

I agree it is a great sport and very exciting in general. I would not support wholesale change and I do think there is the usual over reaction in the media until the next 'talking point' comes along.
However, I am a bit concerned about how Joe has altered his playing strategy in the last 12 months or so. Yes it is winning and that's great - but it is very dull. I worry that the reluctance to offload and the reliance on kick chase is very one dimensional, defense oriented rugby. It also requires big strong lads in all positions.
I worry that we will be found out.

LorMal

chrysagon wrote: »

any way of getting rid of WARD from the media?

Lets not be calling for people to lose their job now, that's nasty

sydthebeat

LorMal wrote: »

I agree it is a great sport and very exciting in general. I would not support wholesale change and I do think there is the usual over reaction in the media until the next 'talking point' comes along.
However, I am a bit concerned about how Joe has altered his playing strategy in the last 12 months or so. Yes it is winning and that's great - but it is very dull. I worry that the reluctance to offload and the reliance on kick chase is very one dimensional, defense oriented rugby. It also requires big strong lads in all positions.
I worry that we will be found out.

i dunno if im weird or what but i found the south african, australian and french games absolutely enthralling and in no way dull.
Heart palpitations, nail biting stuff....

davegrohl48

I think the widest held viewpoint (on here at least) is that many players in the defensive line are often offside. Solving that would go a long way to freeing up space. I think yellow card after a teams second offence, so third offside and all subsequent offsides are yellow cards. They do this now but the number of offences is not clear just covered by "repeated team offence."
They are simply not strict enough, you see defenders arriving at the same time as a ball passed 20 yards backwards at pace from a scrum half already well behind the ruck. Not even Olympic Sprinters would get there in time for some of those tackles.
If you solve the offside problem:
- Player in posession can build up speed and has more time to make a decision
- Gives more time for short accurate dink kicks in behind the defensive line
- 9/10/12 axis have way more time to operate a running game

Uno my Uno.

I think a lot of the boshing and one dimensional play we are seeing is because of the advent of the choke tackle. Tacklers are coming in high in an attempt to prevent the ball being moved away and ball carriers are trying to meet these high hits with equally powerful hits of their own.

The fast slowing and skillful rugby that people love to watch comes from quick recycling of the ball at the breakdown as defenses aren't reset and the space comes about. the choke tackle slows the game down and makes it more attritional. Thats a good thing if you are defending a lead but not if you're a spectator.

Everytime the IRB fiddle with the laws especially the tackle there are unexpected concequences, I'd rather they just left it because the game will evolve an answer to the choke tackle naturally.

Philo Beddoe

The_Captain wrote: »

Even Scotland are going down that route with guys like Hogg, Maitland and Visser

Stuart Hogg is a flat-track bosher? He's smaller than any of the other first choice full-backs in the 6 Nations other than Halfpenny, and is a player noted for his exciting counter-attacking.

Philo Beddoe

davegrohl48 wrote: »

- The 2000 - 2007 six nations had far more tries than 2008 - 2014. 2014 was decent at 61 tries, but 2015 I think will come in very low.

There were 19 tries scored at this point last year, compared to 20 this year. There's no guarantee, but I think it's possible that the championship has moved back towards more tries after a steady downhill trend.

The_Captain

Poorly worded post from me.

I mean the Scottish backline is becoming filled up with bigger players, not that they're playing a head down bosh style

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

- The 2000 - 2007 six nations had far more tries than 2008 - 2014. 2014 was decent at 61 tries, but 2015 I think will come in very low.

thats not really a good indicator as italy were naieve newbies back then, then have progressed steadily... which we want them to

work out the tries scored between the old 5 nations teams and youd see things are better......

sydthebeat

The_Captain wrote: »

Poorly worded post from me.

I mean the Scottish backline is becoming filled up with bigger players, not that they're playing a head down bosh style

are they really???

scotland in 2000 had :
mc laren at 13 who was 6' 3" and
gregor townsend at 12 who was 6' 2"
Paterson on one wing and brendan laney on the other, both at 6'


i think peoples perception of the past is misted by the passing of time, theyr wernt all leprechauns running around like headless chickens.....

davegrohl48

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats not really a good indicator as italy were naieve newbies back then, then have progressed steadily... which we want them to

work out the tries scored between the old 5 nations teams and youd see things are better......

Was struggling to find accurate data to do that without having to go through each individual match for total tries.

sydthebeat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Was struggling to find accurate data to do that without having to go through each individual match for total tries.

well i did it earlier when looking at total scores

just took years at random

wittycynic

Actually one very simple rules amendment would improve the game hugely. Penalise failure to release the ball after the tackle.

It used to be the case in rugby that if you didn't release the ball the second you hit the ground following a tackle, you were penalised. That's why when you look at a lot of older games from the 70s you'll notice virtually everyone offloads in the tackle.

By giving players a few seconds grace to hang onto the ball once they hit the ground and then present it, you allow time for defensive lines to form.

Penalise players for holding onto the ball once they hit the ground and the game will become a lot freer.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks but no thanks Tony.

When I saw the thread title I thought Ward had started using rhyming slang.

davegrohl48

I checked tries scored in six nations for years 2000 - 2014 leaving out all Italian games. I'v marked bold/underlined the seven highest scoring years.
I'v underlined and added low beside the seven lowest scoring years.
Results for amount of tries between original 5 nations were:
2000 - 42
2001 - 44
2002 - 53
2003 - 37
2004 - 46
2005 - 44
2006 - 42
2007 - 39
2008 - 31 (low)
2009 - 33 (Low)
2010 - 31 (Low)
2011 - 31 (Low0
2012 - 30 (Low)
2013 - 24 (Low)
2014 - 33 (Low)
The overall trend is towards less tries after 2007.
ps If I have a number wrong feel free to correct. I tried to be careful with the figures.

English Lurker

wittycynic wrote: »

Actually one very simple rules amendment would improve the game hugely. Penalise failure to release the ball after the tackle.

It used to be the case in rugby that if you didn't release the ball the second you hit the ground following a tackle, you were penalised. That's why when you look at a lot of older games from the 70s you'll notice virtually everyone offloads in the tackle.

By giving players a few seconds grace to hang onto the ball once they hit the ground and then present it, you allow time for defensive lines to form.

Penalise players for holding onto the ball once they hit the ground and the game will become a lot freer.

I'm afraid to say a far more likely reaction will be that teams will see an increased likelihood of conceding penalties while in possession and will kick even more possession away. I feel you've only got to look back to 2009/10 when refs were allowed Brussow and the like to jackal at the breakdown without ever releasing the player to see how it ended up.

In general, I am with the people who believe that the game isn't broken and that small men will continue to succeed.

dub_skav

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I checked tries scored in six nations for years 2000 - 2014 leaving out all Italian games. I'v marked bold/underlined the seven highest scoring years.
I'v underlined and added low beside the seven lowest scoring years.
Results for amount of tries between original 5 nations were:
2000 - 42
2001 - 44
2002 - 53
2003 - 37
2004 - 46
2005 - 44
2006 - 42
2007 - 39
2008 - 31 (low)
2009 - 33 (Low)
2010 - 31 (Low)
2011 - 31 (Low0
2012 - 30 (Low)
2013 - 24 (Low)
2014 - 33 (Low)
The overall trend is towards less tries after 2007.
ps If I have a number wrong feel free to correct. I tried to be careful with the figures.

What that seems to show is that the game changed after Argentina showed us all how to win by kicking the leather off the ball at the 2007 World Cup.
But, in the 7 years since, things have remained pretty static.
So, why is this a problem all of a sudden?
I think the game is still pretty good, exciting teams still win lots of matches.
Toulon have changed the playing field a bit, but that's to do with money and their particular style.
People have copied the Toulon style to a certain extent and the Top14 has become an arm wrestle, but that will change when a team puts together a team that wins with skill rather than brawn and then people copy that.

I think the World Cup (as it always does) will have a huge influence. It is the one time in 4 years that the SH and NH teams play against a variety of opponents from their own and the other hemisphere.
A team will figure out a wrinkle which provides more success than they were expected to have - like Argentina in 2007 - and this will shape the subsequent few years.

Annabella1

I think the amount of subs being brought on needs to be looked at
Gaps will appear as players get tired which will make it more of a spectacle
It will stop teams like Toulon buying 40 players and stop players getting international caps by being on the pitch for 5 mins

19543261

As a spectacle I'd say Rugby is doing rather well. Let's not "fix" it.

Stout defense only make the highs of breaks higher. Opinions like Wards are formed by thought-shortcuts without any mind for balance.

"This thing is great, yeah! YEAH. Let's change stuff so we have more of that good stuff! GOOD STUFF IS GREAT."

Ed The Equalizer

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dunno if im weird or what but i found the south african, australian and french games absolutely enthralling and in no way dull.
Heart palpitations, nail biting stuff....

Me too, after 30 years of watching the game, what a joy to see an Irish team play like this.

Neil3030

Ward should really know that for so many people, the emotional investment in the result of a test match is so enormous, that these physical arm-wrestles are every bit as exciting as the most free-flowing, champagne swash-buckle. I recall days where we'd be happy to just not lose to France by more than 10 points.

rrpc

Tony Ward was one of the "ROG at 10 and Sexton at 12" brigade.

Nuff said :rolleyes: