night time shooting not permitted!!!

mixerbarcoe

Well lads my brother applied for a licence for a .223 for fox shooting and after a few months of waiting and a few phone calls he finally recieved the grant letter on monday to find "Night time shooting not permitted" wrote on the grant letter. Given that 90% of fox control is done at night in ireland he is not too happy about it..

any opinons on what he can do about it ??

oldtart

mixerbarcoe wrote: »

Well lads my brother applied for a licence for a .223 for fox shooting and after a few months of waiting and a few phone calls he finally recieved the grant letter on monday to find "Night time shooting not permitted" wrote on the grant letter. Given that 90% of fox control is done at night in ireland he is not too happy about it..

any opinons on what he can do about it ??

What time is regarded as night as it surely varies depending on the time of year?

deerhunter1

mixerbarcoe wrote: »

Well lads my brother applied for a licence for a .223 for fox shooting and after a few months of waiting and a few phone calls he finally recieved the grant letter on monday to find "Night time shooting not permitted" wrote on the grant letter. Given that 90% of fox control is done at night in ireland he is not too happy about it..

any opinons on what he can do about it ??

WHAT THE F****:eek:

duckman!!

That has to be the most stupid thing I've ever heard sent with a grant letter!...

mixerbarcoe

deerhunter1 wrote: »

WHAT THE F****:eek:

yeah thats what i taught when i was told today... didnt believe it so got him to send me a picture of it!!

duckman!!

mixerbarcoe wrote: »

yeah thats what i taught when i was told today... didnt believe it so got him to send me a picture of it!!

does it just say "no night time shooting permitted" or is there more?

mixerbarcoe

duckman!! wrote: »

does it just say "no night time shooting permitted" or is there more?

yeah thats all it says heres the picture of it

duckman!!

Never seen anything like that before!!

mixerbarcoe

duckman!! wrote: »

Never seen anything like that before!!

Same here..can they actually put a condition like that on a licence ??

juice1304

mixerbarcoe wrote: »

Same here..can they actually put a condition like that on a licence ??

they can put any condition they like on it. i would imagine it is to do with people poaching. best bet would be to ask to have a meeting with the super and get your brother to explain his case. should be fairly straight forward seen as how fox are nocturnal hunters.

gunhappy_ie

juice1304 wrote: »

they can put any condition they like on it. i would imagine it is to do with people poaching. best bet would be to ask to have a meeting with the super and get your brother to explain his case. should be fairly straight forward seen as how fox are nocturnal hunters.

I second that.... keep us informed.

cookimonster

See page 29 of the Commissioners Guidelines for ........... Firearms Act, there is a section dealing with lamping foxs, while another section deals with suitability of land for hunting.
IMO this gives the GS scope for refusing not only a type of firearm in relation to a submitted permisson but also the type of hunting that could take place.
The local GS may not consider it safe or in the good interests of the general public to allow lamping in that particular area.
All though you are not restricted to only shooting that permisson I would look to have this clause removed as it is a condition of your license and may cause problems even if you where out lamping in another district and where confronted by a zealous GS.

Ask, nicely, as to what is the reason for the condition, if its purely based on the suitability of the permisson either- change it, or explain that you will be inevitably lamping on other more suitable permissons but this clause will hinder your lawful activities.

mixerbarcoe

juice1304 wrote: »

they can put any condition they like on it. i would imagine it is to do with people poaching. best bet would be to ask to have a meeting with the super and get your brother to explain his case. should be fairly straight forward seen as how fox are nocturnal hunters.

i was kind of thinking that myself about the poaching but theres never been deer around our area anyway.. so that kind finished that theory for me but that might be the case..

got this from the commisioners guidlines that seems to me that they cant stop you from shooting at night with regards to foxes but only ask to let them no where you will be shooting

Fox
The shooting of foxes at night time with the aid of a lamp is not unlawful provided it can be done with the permission of the landowner and it does not occur within 60 feet of the public road. However it does pose a greater risk to the public and other farm animals. A condition which might be considered appropriate to the licensing of a centrefire high powered rifle for fox shooting could be that Gardai are notified of any shooting taking place after dark.

and this from the nargc website about attaching conditions to licences.

A Superintendent may attach reasonable conditions to the grant of a firearms licence. A Superintendent of an Garda Siochana may not attach conditions to a firearms licence which would be excessively onerous or would have the effect of rendering the intended use of the firearm impossible. Any conditions should be endorsed on the licence itself.

mixerbarcoe

cookimonster wrote: »

See page 29 of the Commissioners Guidelines for ........... Firearms Act, there is a section dealing with lamping foxs, while another section deals with suitability of land for hunting.
IMO this gives the GS scope for refusing not only a type of firearm in relation to a submitted permisson but also the type of hunting that could take place.
The local GS may not consider it safe or in the good interests of the general public to allow lamping in that particular area.
All though you are not restricted to only shooting that permisson I would look to have this clause removed as it is a condition of your license and may cause problems even if you where out lamping in another district and where confronted by a zealous GS.

Ask, nicely, as to what is the reason for the condition, if its purely based on the suitability of the permisson either- change it, or explain that you will be inevitably lamping on other more suitable permissons but this clause will hinder your lawful activities.

yeah i will have to get him to get onto the super when hes back.. hes away with work this week thats why im doin a bit of looking into it for him..

Cass

mixerbarcoe wrote: »

got this from the commisioners guidlines that seems to me that they cant stop you from shooting at night with regards to foxes but only ask to let them no where you will be shooting

They can impose any condition they deem fit. The commisioner's guidelines do not legislate only explain it.

So if they give reasons on the guidelines it's only a discussion type explanation. It's not law. So the Super can say, as he has done, that you cannot shoot at night and unless you can change his mind or bring him to court you must abiode by that ruling.

To shoot at night now would result in you being in brech of the conditions of your license, and hence breaking the law. So please, for your own sake, do not ignore it and make an appointment to meet the Super asap.

Go in well prepared. not with your arms swinging and "best guess". Or rather your mate should.

mixerbarcoe

Cass wrote: »

Go in well prepared. not with your arms swinging and "best guess". Or rather your mate should.

this is exactly what were trying to do here is go in well prepared.. hes going to be in the middle of the atlantic for the next few days so im trying to get as much info as i can together for him for when hes back..

Cass

Did not meant to sound smart if that's how it came acrross. I've seen lads go into meeting with their hands in their pockets, and the end results were always the same. They usually did not change the mind of the Super/Chief Super.

If you are going to tell him that foxes are nocturnal bring in reports/data to back it up. Things like that. Just have as much as you can.

mixerbarcoe

Cass wrote: »

Did not meant to sound smart if that's how it came acrross. I've seen lads go into meeting with their hands in their pockets, and the end results were always the same. They usually did not change the mind of the Super/Chief Super.

If you are going to tell him that foxes are nocturnal bring in reports/data to back it up. Things like that. Just have as much as you can.

haha nah it didnt come across sounding smart atall.. any bit of help ye have is appreciated

Zxthinger

This restriction needs to be recorded and highlighted to the justice committee. This is the type of BS that shooters are sick of...
A lad provided a sound reason to justify the possession of a suitable calibre and was granted the licence for this activity and then he is prohibited in pursuit of that aforementioned 'sound reason'.

Get on the blower, be firm and get that erroneous contradiction removed..

I have seen restriction been placed that say,"night time shooting is only allowed to protect crops or livestock"..

Annoying and all as it, its an obvious error and a great example of why we need a centralised licensing body.

dodderangler

Strange one that.
When I got my grant letter for my .223 it had nothing on it about no nighttime shooting.
I had out on my application that gun was for foxes specifically and I got all clear on it

johnnymolloy

ive had similar experiences with the local AGS from being told i can only shoot rabbits with a 220 swift
and that wanting a moderator sounded very commercial

Chesapeake

That's Pure madness, has there been a chage of FO or Super in your area recently?

So technically your in bother if your in possession of that firearm outside your house when dusk falls, according to those conditions. And people think Ireland is a democracy. still flumoxed by this.

Are you NARGC, have you contacted your county Sec ?

mixerbarcoe

ok bit of an update... the brother was home friday evening so called into the station to make an appointment with the super and was told to talk to the firearms officer first.. so he showed him the grant letter and the FO basically said it was the stupidest thing he's ever seen and told the brother to ring the superintendents clerk on monday morning to get the condition removed and grant letter reissued.. he also took a photocopy of the grant letter for himself as he said he wanted to keep an eye on the situation that he never heard of anything like it before..

so he got onto the superintendents clerk this morning and the clerk told him that condition has been on all licences in the dirstrict for nearly a year on all calibres above .22 as to not encourage lamping..which is a blatent lie in my opinion and which the brother pointed out to the clerk as close friends of ours had applied and recieved licences with out that condition on it in the past few months for a .223 , .243 and .308 which the clerk didnt have really have anything to say too.. all he said that the brother can do was write a letter stating why he wants the gun and the condition removed and try make a case for himself and HOPE that the superintendent calls him in for a meeting..

as of now i told him to contact des crofton which he has done and des is getting onto his legal team and to get back to my brother later today

Witcher

It would be better to see what the super says before wading in with solicitors.

johnnymolloy

i suppose i would ask for what reason are they trying to prevent lamping and why is it ok to do it with something like a 204 ruger or 17hmr and not a 22 caliber

but im guessing as with most they will not understand what your saying as ive been told before that a 22 magnum and 220 swift are the same

Cass

I agree with Strider. There is no harm contacting the NARGC and having your ducks in a row but if you wade in with the NARGC, legal talk, etc. then the Super may (and most likely will) just take the attitude of "see you in court".

The cap in hand approach, while sickening, does work. I cannot say if there is any entitlement to meet the Super (IOW it's a right that he cannot refuse), but i would exhaust this avenue before going legal. If he refuse to meet you then it's a given that he does not intend to change his mind, and at this point you can continue down the legal route via the NARGC.

Given what you were told, and in keeping with what i and others have said, you need to write a letter addressed to the Super's office. In it explain that you wish to discuss the condition set out in your grant letter whereby night shooting is prohibited. DO NOT go into too much detail in the letter as to your reasons as these are best discussed in person, but say enough to get the meeting. Be polite, respectful, and as said above prepared.

• Explain that you have no interest in deer shooting hence the application for a varmint caliber and not deer caliber.
• Explain that refusing/restricting a license based on the act of trying to prevent illegal poaching/lamping of deer is a smear of your character as you have never been charged or convicted of any such act.
• Explain how foxes are most active at night and for the purpose of livestock protection, and population control that the culling of foxes is a necessity.
• Discuss section 38 of the wildlife act 1976 (as amended by section 45 of the 2000 wildlife amendment act) whereby lamping of foxes is not illegal.
• Also explain that the permissions you have received for shooting on the land you have was contingent on you controlling the fox population for the land owner and the condition on your license prohibits this, and hence puts your permissions in jeopardy.

Get/have as much paperwork as you can to back up any legal points or any point you intend to discuss. Keep a calm head and regardless of the result/outcome thank him for his time, and leave. Depending on what happens you can then decide to take it further via the NARGC, solicitor, etc.


Lastly, the grant letter you have. I'd talk to your FO/NARGC rep. asap about it. You have 30 days from the granting of the letter to pay for it and get the license otherwise it's classed as you changing your mind/refusing the license and you technically must apply for it all over again. So see if you are better of paying the fee and getting the license, or waiting for the meeting with the Super and acting afterwards.

Just don't loose track of the timescale while trying to sort this out.

mixerbarcoe

Cass wrote: »

I agree with Strider. There is no harm contacting the NARGC and having your ducks in a row but if you wade in with the NARGC, legal talk, etc. then the Super may (and most likely will) just take the attitude of "see you in court".

yeah i totally agree with the 2 of ye there on the mentioning legal talk and i wouldnt think he would want to go that way either.. contacting the NARGC was so he would no where he stands on the matter IF a meeting with the super doesnt go his way and to find out what options he has if that happens.

Given what you were told, and in keeping with what i and others have said, you need to write a letter addressed to the Super's office. In it explain that you wish to discuss the condition set out in your grant letter whereby night shooting is prohibited. DO NOT go into too much detail in the letter as to your reasons as these are best discussed in person, but say enough to get the meeting. Be polite, respectful, and as said above prepared.

• Explain that you have no interest in deer shooting hence the application for a varmint caliber and not deer caliber.
• Explain that refusing/restricting a license based on the act of trying to prevent illegal poaching/lamping of deer is a smear of your character as you have never been charged or convicted of any such act.
• Explain how foxes are most active at night and for the purpose of livestock protection, and population control that the culling of foxes is a necessity.
• Discuss section 38 of the wildlife act 1976 (as amended by section 45 of the 2000 wildlife amendment act) whereby lamping of foxes is not illegal.
• Also explain that the permissions you have received for shooting on the land you have was contingent on you controlling the fox population for the land owner and the condition on your license prohibits this, and hence puts your permissions in jeopardy.

Get/have as much paperwork as you can to back up any legal points or any point you intend to discuss. Keep a calm head and regardless of the result/outcome thank him for his time, and leave. Depending on what happens you can then decide to take it further via the NARGC, solicitor, etc.

thanks for all the above informatioin Cass